What a stunning rose. Such ethereal beauty on the first day. My William R. Smith is remarkably like this rose. Yet another rosy mystery?

I wonder if there is any diffrence btw Marie Van Houtte and William Smith ?

Yes. There definitely are differences. Though it is said that the rose sold in Europe as 'Wm. R. Smith' is often actually 'Marie van Houtte'.

Another Tea that has similar coloring is 'White Maman Cochet'.

'Marie van Houtte' isn't a "found" rose.
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4131
Bred by Jean-Claude Ducher (France, 1871).
Introduced in United States by Conard & Jones in 1903 as 'The Gem'.
Introduced in Australia by Hazlewood Bros. Pty. Ltd. in before 1911 as 'Marie van Houtte'.

We originally bought it (the first time) because 'Mrs. Dudley Cross' was such a mildewy disaster here. Marie turned out to be fare better for our conditions.

Ingrid, in my garden MvH has made an enormous sprawling bush, even in the shade of a Jacaranda. Whereas WRS (in full sun) grew two very long lanky canes. The blooms on WRS were quite a bit larger, and had many many more petals, which were more substantial than those on MvH. To me, the blooms on WRS are the most beautiful of any rose I have grown, but MvH has made the best looking shrub I have ever had.

Titian, I'd say that was a good assessment. We never did get WRS to flourish for us, but Marie was a trooper.

I just received my Marie Van Houtte a few weeks ago. She already has a tiny bud that I can’t WAIT to see open. :)

Sheila, those blooms look to have more petals than MvH. My WRS had larger leaves than MvH. It's a lovely shrub, whatever it is.

The confusion continues since my WRS is a chunky bush, much more like the MVH that Trish describes than her lanky WRS. That leads me to wonder whether both Sheila and I may have MVH rather than William R. Smith. The blooms on my WRS look so very similar to Jeri's beautiful Marie Van Houtte, although sadly this is another rose that's being attacked by the roof rats.

You may be right, Ingrid. My WRS is a very healthy bush with less exquisite blooms, but a great shrub. I have never seen MVH in person, unless my William is one. I do have Mrs. Dudley Cross who is smaller and seems more as expected. The Tea ladies said their MVH is huge but twiggy growth. My William has stronger large canes and is more akin to Maman Cochet in vigor. That sounds more like the Tea ladies describe William. So I'm back to confused.

A distinguishing feature of MvH is that it branches at right angles, and the growth is definitely twiggy, and it has nice plummy coloured new growth.. Mine drapes to the ground, or did till the dreaded die-back. My WRS's leaves were about twice the size, and quite thick, if I remember rightly. Mrs Dudley Cross's blooms are smaller than WRS's, and larger than MvH's - if any of that helps.

Sheila, I just enlarged your photo, and I think I was wrong about the number of petals. It certainly could be MvH.

The reason i ask that question was everytime i see WRS it looks very much like MVH. I was going to order but everytime i cancel. I wanted to be sure who sells actual WRS bec of this old forum . Jerry stay in central Fl like me and he described his WRS . Now, I am also getting confused but .....

Sorry, Shiela for the above.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1611788/the-tea-rose-william-r-smith&ved=2ahUKEwjUj4qqldXlAhUKd6wKHcVJBiIQFjAGegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw138_HPxGNBfP4BTyRJxTQ2&cshid=1573029498935

I'll just have to follow this topic along. Maybe I need to go to Sacramento and meet some of these roses in person where experts have them labeled correctly.

Sheila -- I do wish you would.

Sheila, whatever you have, its a beauty!!

I want one! lol.

I have White Maman cochet but its the climbing version. I think White Maman and Niles Cochet are my favorite teas.

I had MVH but it died because I planted it in 'the spot' (unknown to me) where everything dies! Something wrong with that spot - like, its Haunted or something lol!

I can plant on either side of that spot and stuff grows! I guess I should just put a statue there. It might like start doing something freaky though, like its head spinning around, haha.

I've been meaning to replace MVH because I think its a lovely color.

I also love 'Niles Cochet'.

I finally have a little plant taken from the huge old one in San Juan Bautista. It's ready to go into the ground, finally . . .

I had Marie Van Houtte at the old house and posted many pictures of her. She filled a 4x4 raised bed within one year. Eventually she grew to be 6x6, and was in bloom almost all year in 10a. Loved her many color changes. Great rose!

Do you think my plant looks like your Marie did, Sylvia?

Jeri, that is breathtaking..and huge! I hope mine gets that big someday!

I think it would be neat if Niles had a climbing sport like the Pink and White Mamans.

Sultry -- Niles is a sport of 'Maman Cochet' and does sport back from time to time.

As for getting that big ... maybe, if you have a hundred or so years to wait!

JD had that Niles in the upper bed of his front yard which ate the house every year. I think Niles is a partial climbing sport.

Good point, Kim. And while JD's Niles had fewer years, it also had better care.

BTW, though, if you walk through the alleyway behind that building in SJB, you'll find several more plants of Niles . . . SOMEONE, or several Someones, propagated the daylights out of that plant, at times, over the decades.

I do think if someone planted Niles and treated it as a climber, it would quickly become GINORMOUS and perform precisely as desired. That would certainly beat having to prune every year with a chainsaw...

Well, since we do very little pruning . . .