Philosophy Thread – compliments of Zach & Skybird!
Hi all,
Zach and I started philosophizing on another thread, and we’re planning to “continue the conversation here”—but EVERYONE is way welcome to come and add their own philosophies, whether the same or different from ours!
Our “discussion” started when we each posted about how important we believe it is to be “out in Nature”—at all times, but especially now, while there’s so much overload and stress about Covid 19. From there we started getting into Deep Stuff—so to speak! If you don’t want to “philosophize,” but just want to come post about what “being out in your yard” means to you or helps you somehow, please do! Any and all comments about your “connection” with Nature are welcome! Join us!
Since Zach and I were going WAY off topic in the other thread, I’m copying those “off topic” posts here to start this thread with an “in progress” conversation!
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Copied from the seed starting thread:
By Skybird: Gardening is, in my opinion, one of the absolutely best things any of us can be doing right now, for so many different reasons. When there are so many things that we can't control right now, it's wonderful to be able to go out into the yard and watch the new growth greening up, to touch the plants that are up already, to look at--and touch--the flowers that are blooming, to feel the sun and breeze on our "winter weary" faces, and to look forward to the promise of a good growing year! When you're feeling like you're on overload with the Covid 19 news, walk out into your yard--even if you just sit out there for a few minutes and look at a tree or the sky! It's the best medicine we have!
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By Zach: Skybird, I wholeheartedly agree with nature being wonderful, and powerful, medicine. Not only for our mental health in times of stress, but our spiritual and physical health as well. To me, our modern society’s lack of a connection to the earth is our single greatest illness.
Our species’ centuries-old quest to conquer the land rather than “seeing it as a community to which we belong” has led us to a very unhealthy situation. We have lost sight of the fact that our health and well-being is intricately tied to health and well-being of the “land organism” as a whole. We have wrongly come to believe that our selfish and destructive behavior is without consequence. I honestly believe that our current situation is a jarring example of our chickens coming home to roost.
“Men are only fellow-voyagers with other creatures in the odyssey of evolution...[And] while now captain of the adventuring ship, is hardly the sole object of its quest."
We would do well to heed that last part with a little more earnest.
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By Skybird: To go a little bit OT, into philosophy here. The Original Peoples were on this continent for at least 13,000 years, and probably for at least 20,000 years before we “found it.” When the first white Europeans “discovered it,” they described what they found as The Garden of Eden! I’m not sure there’s anybody who would call it that anymore!
A couple years ago when I went out to Limon to do a Perennials 101 class, I started it with exactly what you said above! I started it with: Gardening is good for the body, it’s good for the mind, and it’s good for Spirit! Then I went on to say a little bit about each!
You’re sounding very much “Indian,” Zach—tho don’t try to claim you are—the “real ones” don’t appreciate that much at all! I can’t tell for sure from your comments if you include just “animals” in your concept of oneness, or if it includes the whole of everything—land, water, sky, trees/plants, rocks, and ALL of creation. American Indians (and Indigenous Peoples all over the earth) believe/know the latter. We are one part of ALL things that exist, and if we harm any one part of the whole, we harm all other parts, including ourselves. If all people understood and knew that concept, how very easy it would be to repair all the devastation we/humans have caused. The Indians say: We don’t own the land, the land owns us! They understand that Nature makes the ultimate decisions! We are very small in the Big Picture—as we are being reminded right now!
Regarding gardening! I had my tomatoes “roundup-ed” last year! You’re not the only one who had a catastrophe! This is a new year! Keep your glass half full!
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By Zach: “If we harm any one part of the whole, we harm all other parts, including ourselves.”
Aldo Leopold wrote “The outstanding scientific discovery of the twentieth century is not television, or radio, but rather the complexity of the land organism. Only those who know the most about it can appreciate how little we know about it. The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant: "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.“
When I was in high school I met a philosophy professor from U. Of Wyoming who introduced me to Aldo Leopold. Leopold wrote of the “land organism. In that “organism” and “community” he included soil, water, air, microbes, plants, animals and everything else that exists together here on earth. Now I can’t say whether Leopold drew any inspiration from Native People, I don’t think he ever mentions them specifically but I can say from reading him that ecology, conservation, and land were not merely scientific endeavors but were the basis of his lifestyle and his spirituality.
When I was a kid, we lived down the road from the federal prison at Kipling and Quincy. On the south side of Quincy was a wetland with a grove of massive cottonwoods. One day my dad and I were driving by and someone had drained the wetland and cut every one of those trees into chunks and laid them neatly along the road. I was inconsolable, unable to understand how anyone could be so ruthless and wantonly destructive? To me, those trees were every bit as much of a living thing as I was and killing them was the same as murder. When I was introduced to Leopold a decade or so later, his writing, and the deep spiritual connection to the land he espoused, was able to put into words something I had felt, but was not able to convey myself. All of this has led very much to my path in life and my experiences and my perception of the world. Through spending most of my life outdoors, in nature, I have learned how powerfully healing the land is. I have learned just how interconnected we are to everything around us. As I have gotten older, I have witnessed the destruction wrought by mankind on this earth goes far beyond a pond surrounded by cottonwood trees that were mercilessly bulldozed to build a housing tract. As a young adult I learned (often the hard way) that recklessness and hubris have a way of catching up with people.
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End of copied posts!
Let the conversation continue!
Comments (11)
6 years agoAbsolutely Skybird! The connection is something that has always been there. I think it is probably something we are all born with, but I think "modern society" often makes it difficult to truly grasp. We live in a culture that has us so far removed from the land, that we feel that it is something we are no longer part of. We have been led to believe that it is something we are mere "observers" of. That nature happens "out there" and we get to go "look at" it on the weekend or watch a T.V. show about it. This detachment is not only wrong, but unhealthy for us and the land.
"but when anyone would insist that the only way to “go to church” or “worship” was to do it “in a building,” my thought was always that “being out in the woods” was a better way to “do it!” [No! I never said that to a teacher or preacher!] “Traditional religion” just never “connected” with me!"
Yes Skybird! YES! The land is my "temple" my "church." I'm probably more agnostic than anything, but if there is some divine creator out there, where better to commune with that creator than within their creation!?! This is actually a belief expressed by John Muir, and one great example I can find is his (failed) attempt to prevent the damming, and flooding, of California's Hetch-Hetchy Valley. "Dam Hetch Hetchy!" wrote Muir, "As well dam for water-tanks the people’s cathedrals and churches, for no holier temple has ever been consecrated by the heart of man."
More than that, I believe that through "oneness" (I LOVE that term) it's not simply communing with "God," it's communion with EVERYTHING. As I mentioned, I believe that there is powerful medicine in the land, and that comes from the energies ("spirits" even) of everything around us. From trees to wind to birds to water. Getting in touch with that is extremely "nourishing." Despite our best efforts to remove ourselves from it and simply become the casual observers of it's goings on, it is impossible.
"We asked each other what “religion” we thought we were “closest to,” and I had told her that I didn’t know enough to know if I was right or not, but I thought I was “closest to Native American..."
Like you, I don't "know enough" to know for certain. Historically, my understanding is that the Native American's have guarded their beliefs from outsiders, and given the way we have treated them and their culture, rightfully so. But regardless, it is not "my culture" and for me to try and inject myself into that and claim it as part of my own doesn't feel right to me. But that idea of "oneness" is so incredible and it does feel right and it is something I believe was well known and understood to "ancient" peoples across the globe. Until "modern" society and even "organized" religion did away with it. Leopold calls it the "Abrahamic view" of the land. The idea that God created the earth and everything on it simply to be used by man. I'm not Biblical scholar, but I am familiar with the "western society" to which I belong and I have to say I agree. This concept that land is here for us to use and abuse as we see fit is an endemic, and chronic, problem in our society. And it's not only killing the land, it's going to end up killing us.
P.s. Theres a lot of days my wife would probably be just fine with letting you take me off her hands haha.Related Professionals
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6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoI'm working from home and this was sent to staff this morning. While this isn't specific to gardening, I thought it was worth sharing.
Message from White Eagle, Hopi indigenous on 03/16/2020
“This moment humanity is going through can now be seen as a portal and as a hole.
The decision to fall into the hole or go through the portal is up to you.
If they resent the problem and consume the news 24 hours a day, with little energy, nervous all the time, with pessimism, they will fall into the hole.
But if you take this opportunity to look at yourself, rethink life and death, take care of yourself and others, you will cross the portal.
Take care of your home, take care of your body.
Connect with the middle body of your spiritual House. Connect to the egregor of your spiritual home. Body, house, medium body, spiritual house, all this is synonymous, that is to say the same. When you are taking care of one, you are taking care of everything else.
Do not lose the spiritual dimension of this crisis, have the aspect of the eagle, which from above, sees the whole, sees more widely.
There is a social demand in this crisis, but there is also a spiritual demand. The two go hand in hand. Without the social dimension, we fall into fanaticism. But without the spiritual dimension, we fall into pessimism and lack of meaning.
You were prepared to go through this crisis.
Take your toolbox and use all the tools at your disposal. Learn about resistance with indigenous and African peoples - we have always been and continue to be exterminated. But we still haven't stopped singing, dancing, lighting a fire and having fun. Don't feel guilty about being happy during this difficult time. You don't help at all by being sad and without energy. It helps if good things emanate from the Universe now. It is through joy that one resists. Also, when the storm passes, you will be very important in the reconstruction of this new world.
You need to be well and strong.
And, for that, there is no other way than to maintain a beautiful, happy and bright vibration. This has nothing to do with alienation. This is a resistance strategy. In shamanism, there is a rite of passage called the quest for vision. You spend a few days alone in the forest, without water, without food, without protection. When you go through this portal, you get a new vision of the world, because you have faced your fears, your difficulties ... This is what is asked of you.
Let them take advantage of this time to perform their vision seeking rituals.
What world do you want to build for yourself?
For now, this is what you can do: serenity in the storm.
Calm down and pray.
Everyday.Establish a routine to meet the sacred every day. Good things emanate, what you emanate now is the most important thing. And sing, dance, resist through art, joy, faith and love. Resist."
6 years agoI love this thread. I JUST told my son (he’s 22 now!) and girls the other day about you getting stranded “under the rock” for a night but I couldn’t remember where it was.
Skybird - z5, Denver, Colorado
Original Author6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
Another country heard from! OMG, I NEVER expected to hear from you! Where in the world is SingCharlene?????Hi, Charlene! Are you still in SoCal--if I'm remembering right!?? Welcome back to RMG! For those of you who don't have a clue who this is, Charlene was the host of our VERY FIRST swap--down Castle Rock way--and she hosted 3 or 4 more after that! It was a beautiful place for a swap with a view of the mountains and lots of room! Then she skedaddled out of Colorado, Headin' West! It's SO good to have you stop by here! I can't believe your son is 22! You're gettin' Olde, girl! No, not really! I'm the one who's Olde!
I'm 76 now, and still going back to Southern Utah and Capitol Reef every year! Last time I was back to the Scene of My Near Demise was on the 10th anniversary in 2017--and people STILL build fake cairns up there! But a couple years after my unforgettable nite in 2007 I discovered "my all-time favorite Natl. Parks hike" which is Sulphur Creek in Capitol Reef--it's a one-way hike (I know people at the Park who give me a ride to the trailhead!), and it's about 6 miles following Sulphur Creek which runs thru a sheer canyon which, in places, narrows down enough that you can touch the walls on both sides! You need to "get down" three waterfalls on the way, and that part gets "a little bit harder" for me each year--but I AM planning to do it again this fall! I don't hike to GET places, I hike to BE places, so I take about 7 hours to do it--and on 3 years I didn't see another person the whole time! (Somebody knows where I am when I do that one, so if I "don't get back by dark" they know where to send the St. Bernard with the keg of brandy!) Tell your son to google "Sulphur Creek Capitol Reef" and check out images, and plan to do it some day--it's AMAZING! You too! You're nowhere NEAR olde yet, and if I can do it, you can do it! And you KNOW I recommend a private tour at Ute Mountain Tribal Park--with Rick Hayes for your guide! And there are SO many more places I can recommend around there! I love Natural Bridges, and Bryce is almost beyond belief! Had an interesting thing happen there too! A woman--near half my age!--passed out in front of me on the trail and I wound up "sprinting" up a trail called Wall Street to get help for her! Wall Street goes 500' straight up the side of the canyon, from 7500' to 8000'! That was in 2015, and I don't worry about my heart anymore!!! Age is definitely a number--but it's even more about what's in your head and heart!
If you see this and have time, give us a brief update! How are you, what have you been doing...! Wherever you are, Stay Safe, and take care of you and your family. If you ever get back to the High, Dry Front Range, let us know! Would love to catch up in person--AFTER Covid 19!
Stay safely Hunkered Down for now,
Skybird
P.S. ZACH, I am planning to reply to your last post! Not sure when with the warm weather coming up, but I WILL be back!- 6 years ago
Ahhh... good to hear from you Skybird. You’re as fiesty and full of energy as ever. That’s not surprising. I checked in here a few years ago and gave a brief update. I’m 51. 😬 Shane is 22 and the girls are 12 and 11. I actually never left Colorado! My mom had cancer for several years and Greg got kicked out of oil and gas when the market crashed years ago. So that’s when we moved from that house and financially freed ourselves up. I spent a few years traveling back and forth taking care of my mom until she passed March 2019.
I’m in Castle Rock still! We moved to the historic little downtown castle rock closer to everything. We love being walking distance to town and the kids love being close to school and friends. We have half an acre so lots of space but we’re on a hill (a view of Pike’s Peak) so it’s on three tiers/levels.
My husband and I opened our own music studio and have 55 voice/guitar students. We’re teaching online right now. Grateful to still be able to work.
I will tell my son about the places in Utah you’ve recommended. He’s a big outdoor guy and really into hiking.I would love to see you and others in person after the Covid goes away.
Take care and stay home. No better excuse to garden during this time!
Xo
Charlene Skybird - z5, Denver, Colorado
Original Author6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoWow! You're still here in Colorful Colorado! Then we CAN get together sometime! It sounds like you have a great little business going--and you're doing what you love--that's really important! Really glad you're able to keep it going online for now!
I haven't left the house for over three weeks now, so I know for sure I'm good to go--and this whole thread started when we were discussing the "healing power" of Nature, so gardening is absolutely the best thing any of us can be doing right now as far as I'm concerned! I've been outside every day it's warm enough--and a few days when it wasn't warm enough!
Obviously there isn't going to be a Spring Swap this year, but I hope you can join us for one again at some point. And after we're all safe from Covid again, I'll contact you and maybe a few of us can get together somewhere just to catch up!
If your son ever gets seriously interested in going to Four Corners and/or southern Utah, I can recommend LOTS of places to go, see, and hike! I've been going "that way" for thirteen years now and besides the Natl. Parks, I've found lots of the Nooks and Crannies! If he should ever decide to check out Sulphur Creek, be sure he knows it's a "route," not a "trail," so he absolutely needs to check it out at the visitor center before starting it--to be sure what the conditions are! A couple years, including last fall, I couldn't hike it because there had been a flash flood--and there was water over my head in the narrows! I don't do technical, and I don't SWIM, so when that happens I just wait till the next year, but if he was willing to swim if necessary he could do it pretty much any time he was prepared and there was no flash flood risk! I can't imagine he wouldn't love it if he tried it! [And if he ever does it, it helps the first time to know that you pass the three waterfalls on the right, right, and left!]
Anyway, let's all stay safe for now, and plan to get together when "the world" is safe again! SO good to hear from you!
Skybird
- 6 years ago
Hi guys! Greetings from Betty in Westminster. It's been several years since I checked in , but I'm happy to see familiar names! I had nasty chemo in 2016 and retired from working the same year, and I've had a tough time getting back into a good groove. And big Percy the standard poodle is still sweet , but his favorite thing is trampling the perennial bed against the fence! He runs back and forth barking at doggies on the street behind me.
But like most people , I'm stir crazy from staying at home...just grateful for my yard, even if it's a wreck! Happy spring! Skybird - z5, Denver, Colorado
Original Author6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
Hi Zach,It's been a long time since your last post here, so I just want to let you know that I AM still planning to reply to it! I have a LOT of things I thought of when I read your post--more than once! But I know it's gonna take a while "once I get started," and I've had other things I've needed to get done--and lots of stuff to do when the weather was so nice--it was, it really was! And I STILL haven't gotten my (and my neighbor's!) tomato and eggplant seeds in soil yet! But I WILL be back--at some point!
But, in the meantime! When I was looking thru some papers recently I found this, that I'm gonna copy here! Richard Bach is a favorite author of mine, and "my name," Skybird, comes primarily from his book Johnathan Livingston Seagull, more specifically, from the Neil Diamond "movie soundtrack from the book!" If you've never read Johnathan, I highly recommend you do! It's a very short book--with a very long message!
This quote is from his book, One!“Have you ever felt so at one with the world, with the universe, with everything that is, that you were overcome with love? That is reality. That is the truth. What we make of it is up to us, as the painting of the sunrise is up to the artist. In our world humanity has strayed from that love. It lives hatred and power struggles and manipulations of the earth itself for its own narrow reasons. Continue and no one will see the sunrise. The sunrise will always exist, of course, but people on earth will know nothing of it and finally even stories of its beauty will fade from our knowing.”
~ Richard Bach, One
I WILL be back--sometime!Skybird
Skybird - z5, Denver, ColoradoOriginal Author