How old are your RM and Conditorum? I am not as experienced with Conditorum, but I know it eventually does run, and I have quite a bit of experience with Rosa Mundi as a runner once she's mature enough to spread her wings. Some of my own root roses have taken longer than others to send out stolons. Soil conditions, competing trees, light conditions, etc. can all affect how quickly an own root rose spreads. A Gallica can take a few years to embark on its journey across your beds, but once it is out of the starting gate, it moves more rapidly and in several directions. A few grafted roses have spread in my garden as well, once the soil and mulch were piled high enough for the determined cultivar to take root, but initial planting with the union above the soil line held them in check for awhile.

Rosa Mundi can be a persistent reversion artist. My Camaieux is currently reverting, too. In my experience, once a Gallica rose shows the inclination, it will always be tempted to send up canes of its ancestor. I just sigh and slice, cutting the reverted cane as closely to the base as possible. I frequently propagate parts of the plant that have not reverted and hope those sections will take longer to revert once they grow up. Sometimes the ones I propagate never revert. Nothing keeps me guessing like a Gallica! My current RM, knock wood, has not reverted, even though my Camaieux, which in general seems to be less prone to reversion, has sent up multiple canes with solid mauve-pink blooms. I need to get out in my garden and start slicing before the entire plant is pink.

I am enjoying reading your posts, Lindsey, and puzzling through your OGR challenges in VA. You and I are both growing some of my favorite roses! Carol

Melissa and Carol,

I am glad to find other lovers of old, once-blooming roses, too. Between those who object because they bloom only once and those who can't grow them in hot climates, they have fewer enthusiasts left than they deserve both from their beauty and their antiquity.

I have Maiden's Blush and Queen of Denmark--wasn't aware they

could be propagated by layering. When do you layer and exactly how do you do it? When I have layered plants in the past, I used a brick of stone and waited until the branch took root, but I have never tried it with OGRs.

Does layering work for all OGRS or only some of them? Would it work for Rosa Mundi? If I remove reverted canes, I could layer one or two canes get RM to start spreading that way.

Lindsey

Hi Lindsey,

Can I ask where you found Conditorum? I thought it was impossible to source on this side of the Atlantic, and am delighted to hear that you are growing it.

Lindsey, IF I remember correctly, I cut a small slit in the cane close to a node and then weighted the cane with a stone to keep it flat on the earth, which I had prepared to make it easy for the rose to root. It's slow, but since I'd only managed to root one plant of 'Queen of Denmark' in numerous attempts, it was the only way I had to go. Other gardeners say it suckers for them. You'd be wise to take a look at Internet for the layering. I only did it for that one rose.

Thank you, Melissa--I will see whether I can find details. online I have never been able to root Queen of Denmark or Maiden's Blush; however, I did take a hardwood cutting of Maxima about the size of a pencil. The rose had just been pruned and I saw a piece I was sure would root, and I could tell almost from the start that it would. The plant is still small--I moved it several years ago, but it's been eaten a couple of times since by deer.Its flowers are too often spoiled by rain or damp weather.

KS in Seattle--I bought a grafted plant from Pickering 14 or 15 years ago. It performed well for several years, then died, but not before I had rooted a cutting. The own root hasn't done well--I finally decided the trouble might be that it had sunk below ground level. In February, I carefully inserted a shovel under and around it, pushing it up, then put as much soil under it as I could. It is now at ground level. I did the same with Rosa Mundi which I was able to raise slightly above ground level. Rosa Mundi is definitely better. Conditorum isn't blooming this year but I will be content if it grows. I don't know where you can find it in the US--how sad that this beautiful old rose isn't available.

Lindsey

Thanks for responding Lindsey. I had hoped to hear that you knew of a place that was offering it! If it does grow well this year, given how rare it is, you might want to try propagating some cuttings and growing some spares. At some point perhaps you could offer cuttings to a nursery if your plant ever thrives.

KS--Good suggestions. I have been hoping to propagate it for some time. Maybe this will be the year. I like your idea of giving a plant or cuttings to a nursery. Carol mentioned Monticello earlier and that might be a good choice. The shop sells roses and Conditorum would fit well with other varieties in the rose border.

Lindsey

I think anyone with an herb garden would want Conditorum, if they had the room. I understand this is different from the regular red, single Gallica officinalis that is usually grown

I don't know why but I had a dim impression that some of the antique Dutch florist roses -- the centifolias - I am thinking of Petite de Hollande - were chiefly propagated for ornamental used by grafting. This would make sense because the Dutch growers, I would imagine, would have been very skilled horticulturalists in an era that reached perhaps the peak of hand craftsmanship. (I think mine may be on its own roots, though, so there goes that theory.)

Conditorum is red, has more petals (HMF describes it as semi-double to double) and its petals have a velvety look and texture. Petals of Officinalis are medium to deep pink and do not look and feel like velvet.

Lindsey

My Rosa Mundi reverts and suckers. I just keep taking out the reversions. Maybe about 20% goes solid every year.

A friend told me that Conditorum was sort of halfway between Apothecary's and Tuscany in appearance---not to say it is a cross of those two.

I too am desperately seeking Conditorum! I think the old Heirloom offered it too.

Oh, wait a sec! Belmont, could "Not Tricolore de Flandre" from Heirloom be Conditorum? Would you mind looking at photos on my old thread which has been revived? Carol

Off topic: I MISS PICKERING! Carol

Carol, I have never seen Conditorum in person. Based on your photos I'd say your mystery rose sort of matches some of the Conditorum photos on HMF but I don't know if the foliage does.

Thank you, Belmont. At some point, I'm going to start a thread for everyone who has received "Not TdF" to see if our descriptions and photos ring bells on the forum. I think there's a fairly good chance that "Not TdF" is one of the OGRs Heirloom doesn't offer anymore. Heirloom used to offer an abundance of Gallicas and everything else back in the 1990s!

Lindsey, my apologies for the side conversation on your thread. I was thinking that there was a possibility that I might be (unknowingly) growing Conditorum.

Carol

Sorry for the off topic, but I have missed your enthusiastic self so much Carol! I haven't been coming on as often, and to type I have to use a whole different web browser. Houzz won't work with Google for whatever reason. It erases as I type. I have seen alot of people on here lately I haven't saw in a while. Even though I don't always type, I try to read as often as possible, though I miss alot still.

Hello to all my fellow old roses loving friends!

On topic, I wish I can help, but I can't. I could have sworn I saw Conditorum some where, for sale, but with my jumbled mind, I could easily have been mistaken.

Best of luck to you all, and hope you find it!

Hi, Alana. I've missed you, too! Technology: the blessing and the curse. Thank you for strategically powering through and finding ways to reconnect with the forum. What we won't do to stay in touch with our rose community, right?

Belmont, has anyone tried contacting Dr. Leonard Perry, former extension horticulturalist (retired 2016) at the University of Vermont? Apparently the trial rose garden at the UofV contains or contained Condtitorum.

Link: http://pss.uvm.edu/ppp/roses20.htm . .

"Rose Trials University of Vermont Horticulture Research Center

Dr. Leonard Perry, Professor, University of Vermont

Conditorum - Gallica - purple-red - semi-dbl - 4x4 - old - Hungarian Rose"

Anyway, just passing along a long shot.

Carol