Start saving your money. What I see there in the way of water damage, plus tile popping off the curb, in addition to tile on top of tile, all I see in your near future is a complete gut demo. You are not effectively fixing those issues. Caulk is used with changes in plane as it moves, not to stop water and grout is never waterproof. Technically a properly constructed shower can be used with no tile.

Yikes. I knew I couldn't just grout it, but tell me if it makes sense to do some exploration to see how bad things are inside, before gutting it all out.

I say that because so far the only water damage I am 100% sure came from this shower is what's outside of the curb (baseboard, drywall), which may be due to the sweep that was worn out. Leaking ceiling was more than a year ago, and I can't be sure came from this shower and is not happening now.

Before ripping it all down, I am thinking I will carefully remove one inside curb tile to see if the inside looks like it was built/held up well and if I see evidence of water seepage/damage. Any suggestions on any other way to get an idea of if the are serious issues underneath the curb tiles or not?

You can try selectively demoing or removing the tile on the curb but I would be willing to almost guarantee there is no saving this.

If you have a broken leg...sure, you can try taping it up, don't use it, etc. Long and the short of it is that you need major surgery. First "clue" was the thing about 6 tiles under the curb! How many times has a repair been tried? How much more $ are you willing to flush away?

@millworkman thanks for the nod. if it’s going to have to be ripped, no harm in doing exploratory surgery. If it has to come out, is it feasible to try to keep most of the wall tiles and rip out and build the floor, curb and may be one row of wall tiles?

@avanti - I don’t think this bathroom has been repaired before. It was used for less than a year before we moved in and we didn’t have any work done other than replacing the sweep.

I should have been paying attention to the gaps that must have formed some time ago. They are nowhere near eye level so I missed them

Doubt you would be able to find exact tile to replace the cracked tile. Best to rip out all of the shower and start over with new tile.

Update - I removed a tile and as far as I can tell the curb was constructed properly.

Part of the mortar (and mud?) and the lath came out with the tile, unfortunately, but the upside is that I see a black liner underneath that is intact, so that's good. Seeing the liner, and the lath was reassuring.

Before I go anywhere near gutting this bathroom, I will do a flood test. If it's not leaking, I want to find a way to repair the curb. What do you suggest, to fix the one tile I took out and to fill the gaps around the curb? For the top, I am thinking a getting one long tile.

Seeing the liner, and the lath was reassuring.

Reassuring in what way? I don’t see anything in your photos that would be reassuring to me!

@sammy I have seen pictures of wood, then mortar then tile. I am not an expert on bathrooms but know enough to say that lath and liner being there is a good thing. @Scylla I don’t know about the color but that is not mold you are looking at.

I am new to this forum and getting the vibe that I don’t belong here.

in the picture where you're holding the tile you took out from the curb, it appears that there is a screw sticking out. That screw had penetrated the curb, another no, no.

You appear to not be listening to any of the experienced people on this list who are telling you that shower is toast. Sticking your fingers in your ears will not get you anywhere other than massive water damage which is in your future. No one is being mean to you; they are trying to help you prevent more damage to your home.

The " pan " should be made out of pan material....sheet rubber....folded at the four corners then concrete poured ...formed over....then prepped...tiled... grouted....sealed....then water proof loner or tiled up the wall....

Sure...with a "Water in/ Water out" system. Otherwise doesn't apply with a Surface Applied Membrane System...

Sorry...old school

I mean, you can always plug the drain and put an inch of water in the bottom of the shower. If it rains in your living room you have your answer(and you will be putting a new ceiling in). I'm about 50% joking here but a standing water test is a way to see if it is holding or losing it somewhere.

I'd still take the curb apart and inspect it as Mongo has said.

Thanks for the suggestions. Doing a flood test.

Bad news. Flood test showed leakage. Details below. My question - is it possible to redo all floor layers, the curb and one row of wall tiles, leave rest of the wall alone?

Details - I opened up rest of the tiles on the curb. The pictures tell the story - nails on all three sides of the curb, rusted. The liner doesn't extend past the outside face of the curb. Above the liner, there are backerboards on all sides of the curb, on which thinset and tiles rested. No evidence of anything like Redgard. The 2x4 inch wood that make up the curb are all wet.

If I redo up to the first row of tiles, that allows the new liner to go up to 2.5+ inches on the wall, beyond the top of the curb. Enough?

Honestly that becomes a case of good money after bad. I would assume that the walls are in no better shape, as why would have done the walls correctly and curb/pan so poorly. You spend the money to half ass the curb and now the walls start leaking worse or smelling from rot. Now you just wasted the money on the curb. I truly believe you need to gut the whole magilla.

full gut, do not continue to be suckered by hack contractors. FULL gut , proper contracts , permits, flood tests this time, and careful w black mold now.

I hear you all. Rebuild it all and rebuild it right. Thanks for being patient with me. You all probably recognized the symptoms of bad build from the beginning, but I had to see it for myself.

On the plus side you can re-do it with tile that doesn't look like it came out of an 80s car dealership bathroom.

80s car dealership...LOL you're funny

I am considering same design, with two changes. Get rid of the curb. Since the shower is very small, I could use even a few inches extra. Less corners and transitions, better for waterproofing. And add a storage niche. I am looking into DIY.

How will you properly build this curbless?

Curbless can be a major undertaking. Are you on a slab? If so, concrete has to be removed to drop the shower...something that is radical surgery. Are you on a Post & Beam house? If so, joists need to be cut to lower the area. Sometimes this is feasible...sometimes not. If on a slab, I usually use bricks for the curb. They are waterproof and work well. I like the Kerdi system as it IS completely waterproof and the Kerdi material goes up and over the bricks. I would advise you to not try to "invent the wheel." A traditional shower, properly done is just fine. Some good advice here or try going over to www.JohnBridge.com and we can walk you through the process....

Click on "Tile Forums" and post your questions...

@millworkman you asked a good question. I know I need a way to create proper height. I was reading up on the topic, that’s why I was up till 2am last night. :) There are a lot of good videos and advice out there, thanks to generosity of experts like you. I can be a patient researcher.

@avanti it’s wood frame. Once I remove current layers I will decide exactly what I want to do, but you are right I need to consider how much work and how much complexity I want to bring to this work. And how much my wife will tolerate. Lol Thanks for the tip on the other site, will

use that

Not a pro here, but a word of caution about all the videos online. You can very easily go down a rabbit hole of misinformation.

I had to learn as much I could about shower construction after a contractor botched our project and I needed to educate myself so that I could hire better the second time.

To learn:

- I read about waterproofing on this forum.

- I checked out DIY books even though I wasn’t intending to DIY.

- I went onto the John Bridge forums. I just read, I didn’t post.

- I read on this forum a little bit about Schluter Kerdi and Laticrete Hydroband boards.

- I went onto the websites of Schluter, Laticrete, and a few others.

- I was googling a question I had about one of the waterproofing systems, and a Sal DiBlasi video came up. I wasn’t intending to watch videos, and definitely didn’t want to go down a rabbit hole, but I did watch a lot of his, and I learned a lot. I stopped there. Watching a bunch of videos when you don’t know the expertise of the person might teach you the wrong things.

I also bought and read a downloadable version of this:

www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications.html

I also went onto these websites to read more and learn about the certification process that tile professionals go through.
www.tile-assn.com

You can click to find a contractor on that site.
www.ceramictilefoundation.org
Here’s where you click to find a contractor:
www.ceramictilefoundation.org/find-certified-tile-installers

All the learning I did was so that I could ask better questions and ultimately hire better. No way would it have prepared me to DIY our project. Maybe you have done a ton of DIY projects such as building waterproofed showers, installing tile flooring, backsplash, counters, plumbing, electrical, etc. If you are a DIY-er, I’ve read on here that Schluter Kerdi system is the way to go.

But any-hoo, I’m not a pro, but wanted to share with you the resources I used to learn about the process.

I did find a great tile professional by direct referral on this forum who re-built my botched bathroom. If you decide to hire instead of DIY-ing, try some of those resources to find a good one.

@AJCN I have been reading/watching stuff. Right about good/bad advice out there. Also different but good approaches to sort out. Tricky but I can navigate it. I haven't done a shower before, but I am handy with tools and I want to do this myself. It's not like I can go out and do tons of stuff right now anyway, so a good use of time.

Ok, so you say you’ve been reading and watching a bunch of stuff. What stuff? Your comments make me worried for you. The libraries are doing curb-side pick-up for books. How about getting some of those.

Download the TCNA handbook. Look up and learn your local building codes. Research the many waterproofing systems that are on the market. Read and learn how to make the framing plumb.

I wish you the best of luck, but reading/watching “stuff“ is probably not going to get you there.

@AJCN Please summon some faith in me. I don't know of any other way to learn than reading/watching stuff. Are you against DIY in general?

You’re not listening to all the generous pros who give up their valuable time to answer homeowner‘s questions on here for free. I wish you the best of luck.

Please tell me the specific differences between a Type 1 and thinset tile adhesives. Which is permissible where, and what are the limitations of each?

Within the thinset world, what sub type is required by a 12x24 tile? Why?

Please explain your plan to comply with ANSI 118.10.

Explain the difference in detail B415 and B421. Which do you plan to follow?

Please explain Industry detail EJ171 in regards to a shower project. What is required in order to comply?

If you can answer those correctly, then perhaps you may be able to deal with your issues.

Appreciate everybody's input.

I get it that many of you want me to realize how difficult it is and hire a pro. Or be trained like a professional to be worthy of attempting this work. I respect your opinion. I am heading in a different direction so I will save everybody’s time and stop arguing.

I did get something out of this thread, so for that thank you. You all have the last word on this thread, if you wish

If you're going to do it, I'd suggest a Kerdi system. Schluter makes everything very straightforward, they list exact types of mortar you are supposed to use, the exact trowel sizes for every step, what order to do everything in, every last step in great detail, and they have very good phone support if you have a question. The only thing they say you can do that I disagree with is using drywall as your shower substrate. Don't do that please. Other than that, if you can properly mix mortar and follow their instructions to a T without any improvising on your own you have a fairly good chance of ending up with a properly built and waterproof shower.

@Super Lumen - I took advice from you and others here, used Kerdi. Demolished and rebuilt bottom half of walls and all the floor, curb. Didn't do all the wall because I had enough floor and wall tiles left over from when the house was built to do just that much. Added a pencil border along where new and old wall tiles meet. It was an adventure, happy with the results. Spent around $2000, including on tools that are now in my toolset - laser auto leveler, big tile cutter, grinder and bunch of smaller tools.

Thank you to those who encouraged me. This is not for the faint of heart. Took almost two months. It tested my patience and problem solving skills. Annoyed the family quite a bit. It looks nice and I am confident is built right, leak proof, will last. Moreover, I feel more confident about future projects. To all DIYers out there - if you have the time, patience and problem solving skills, you can do it. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Congratulations! We paid to have our bathroom done. DH can put in furnaces, A/C's, has done roofs and even gutted our kitchen and it came out great. But a bathroom, not a chance!

Congrats Rabitr! We do love pictures on this site, so please share. It must be quite rewarding to have accomplished such a big job.

Was the wall properly waterproofed where you removed the wall tiles? How did you tie in the old waterproofing with the new?

trickle down waterproofing.

Thanks for kind words folks. Many in this forum helped a lot. Those still pelting stones at me, taken plenty of that in this post already, I have nothing more left to say...other than that I will stay in this forum despite you not because of you

rbitr:

You aren't the first to not like what he's been told here; I doubt you'll be the last. We're as polite as possible and some of us struggle with our tone, but we're not watering down the value of brutal honesty which is why people come here.

Joe: Honest, factual comments about the craft of tiling are great, what would be the point of any other variety of comments? Lots of people with lots of experience are here. And their advice is great.

The subjective comments/attitude that sometimes pop up against the idea of DIY is the issue.

If this forum doesn't want to support DIY culture, it should just say so and bar it. No argument.

Otherwise, some commenters assuming all DIYers are incapable, not worthy of learning/mastering the craft and should only have licensed pros touch their bathrooms, is unfair and insulting.

.

I have a highly technical degree and do highly technical work in another field that requires constant learning. And do all kinds of DIY work. I am not even half as smart and skilled with my hands as many others around me that like doing all sorts of DIY work.

I have never before experienced such a push back and second guessing in other forums against a homeowner wanting to do DIY work in heir home.

I am happy not all pros think like this. But among some there seems to be an unwritten rule to collectively shoot down any homeowner wanting to do their own tiling work.

Specializing in DIY tile projects, peruse this site. www.JohnBridge.com

I'm very sorry this has happened to you with your shower. I can sympathize. The shower in my old house started leaking a small amount and we had to replace it. A warning: once we started tearing out the old shower, we found significant water damage from what was probably years of minor leaking that rotted framing and subfloor. There was a lot of structural repair work necessary.

I have done a fair amount of DIY including a tub/shower combo and the shower to replace the leaking one. As mentioned by @Avanti Tile & Stone / Stonetech the www.johnbridge.com site can be helpful for DIY learning. John Bridge also published a book Tile Your World. I found it and a few other published books to be helpful. When it came time to replace my leaking shower, I loved the idea of curbless shower but the correct way to build one was not something I wanted to take on. I decided to use the suggested Schluter Kerdi shower system because it solves some of the most challenging parts of building a properly waterproofed shower (pre-sloped pan, water proof drain, water proofing system, niches, etc). I cannot say who is and who is not capable of building a DIY shower properly. But I will say that the two that I've done were a ton of work, including hard physical labor, and required meticulous planning and execution. The last thing you want is to spend a substantial amount of money and time on a DIY shower that ends up leaking. There is definitely a reason why a good pro isn't cheap and why for most, they are well worth the money.

@Avanti Tile & Stone / Stonetech I bought and read John Bridge book. Good stuff, although some editorial fixing would make the book much much easier to use. I used the forum as well. I got more out of this forum though than John Bridge’s.

@pricklypearcactus I hear you. My experience is exactly like yours as I wrote earlier.

No kidding about the amount of planning and work required. Because no two jobs and bathrooms are alike you need to be able to constantly problem solve new situations.

You have to know what you don’t know and ask the right questions. Great experience though and I am much better prepared for future jobs.

Kerdi system is great for DIYers. And like you, I gave up on curbless, built the same kind of curb. My shower is smaller than the recommended (and code required) size for cubrless. Plus keeping the curb made it unnecessary to move the glass door.

@cpartist - a wide continuous band of kerdi membrane running horizontal overlaps the kerdiboards on the bottom half and the old non-kerdi boards on the top half of the walls. @thisisnotadrill got the picture exactly right. The kerdi membrane is glued to the back of the top board and front of the bottom kerdi board. If there is a leak situation, gravity will help.