what are you zipping then?

A window zipper is used to free painted shut windows. That's what that tool is made to do.

And the removal of the stops, paint, and glazing compound are done with what?

$600 would be a very entry price point to have the work professional done if you ask me. Is there any rot in any of the sashes or frames? I still think that restoration is a good option here for the record, just not sure its getting done for $600 an opening.

I didn't see where the OP answered about storm windows. Will they be going back with those?

Putty knife, pry bar, soy-gel or citru-strip, all ordinary stuff. Why make the job anymore difficult than necessary?

You forgot proper PPE, plastic, containment, and other RRP protocols.

and good luck removing the glazing and not breaking any glass in 36 windows.

Wearing a pair of latex gloves and putting down a plastic drop cloth and tossing it is really quite easy.

Yes, it's possible that you may break a pane of glass but it's cheap and easy to get it replaced.

Is there any rot in any of the sashes or frames?

This is an important question that needs to be addressed before starting the project. Not a deal breaker by any means, but you don't want to unexpectedly find extensive rot when anticipating just an aesthetic and structural touch up.

Yes, it's possible that you may break a pane of glass but it's cheap and easy to get it replaced.

Don't know what type of glass is in the original windows, but assuming lites get broken and the original glass is drawn (1941, most likely of a couple different possible options from the time frame), are you suggesting that you would simply replace it with float, or would you want to find a drawn lite to maintain a reasonable visual consistency with the other lites in the window? If you are suggesting finding a reasonably historically accurate replacement, where would you go to find it?

If on the other hand you are advocating a run to the glass shop/hardware store every time a lite breaks, would you suggest keeping a supply of glass on hand just in case? And if so would you suggest precut to size or large sheet to cut down as needed?

Don't forget a proper respirator, containment, wipe down procedures and documentation.

Just saying if you are going to do it right, make sure the EPA is satisfied.

EPA is not concerned with home owners doing work on there own house.

You exposure your neighbor to lead dust...you can bet they will be.

Not to mention that they should be safe to protect themselves. No mention of breathers or suits above.

Perhaps they might in a rare case, but I haven’t seen it, I have seen them not do anything. Protection is most important to others children especially. I have worked On more than one case where the home owner has poisoned There child Rehabbing windows. This is truly very messy work and would recommend homeowners to take a RRP class.

No lead paint on my nearly two hundred year old windows so not an issue. Stop making mountains out of mole hills. Using citru-stip or soy-gel doesn't make any dust anyway.

"Mountains out of mole hills"...okay. I guess the several hundred thousands and potential fines from the EPA are just "mole hills". I guess the exposure risk to workers, customers, children, and society in general is just "mole hills".

That is great that you tested all the paint in your 200 year old home, however, to proceed and discuss this matter in a capacity that does NOT mention the hazard of lead paint is irresponsible. Todd and I are bound by a bit higher standard to make sure that we aren't unintentionally supplying false information for consumption. The reality is that lead paint is EXTREMELY prevalent in homes that are older and despite your dismissal that lead paint isn't that common, supplied via a 1 page link to someone's webpage...an assignment of an established "authority" that seems a bit odd.

The reality is that homes built prior to 1960, have about a 90% (that's 10% less than 100%) likelihood of having lead paint somewhere in them.

I suggest you look up factual data before commenting on an open forum where folks might erroneously assign some degree of accuracy to your comments.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/r95-003.pdf

I’ll agree with the other pros in the thread. Sounds like restoration is a valid option here, but be very careful not to underestimate the gravity of that project in both cost and time—- if one wants it to be done right that is. For instance, replacing glass in a 200 year old home because it breaks is not “no big deal”. As Oberon alluded to, that is part of the very reason to restore in the first place. Cobbling on weatherstripping and other common DIY steps taken in restoring your windows can also detract, and again defeat the very reason for restoring them in the first place.

Regarding lead paint, homes built prior to 1940 are nearly 90% likely to have lead paint, with common areas being the windows. This is not a molehill. It’s a hazardous material that can make people very sick, a significant issue that needs to be properly addressed in any remodeling done to an old home. The chances of a 200 year old home testing negative for lead on all of the components of the window, through what is likely several layers of old paint applied at different points through two centuries is slim to none. 99.9+ of 100 homes that are that age will have lead paint on the windows. Power tools and sanders need not be used to disturb the lead dust either, simply disassembling parts and pieces will do so.

Moral of the story, again, restoring old windows is a great thing for the right set of circumstances, but restoring them properly and accommodating the time and expense of doing so is very important.

Window restoration isn't very hard if you know the right techniques, nor does it have to cost that much. For the putty, use a steam box to do a whole window, or a steamer for isolated putty removal if it's stuck hard. Google is your friend. All of the other methods are awful. A steam box might also pull most of the paint. If not, heat gun the interior paint after the glass is out (or leave the glass, but use heat shields to avoid breaking glass), then either heat gun or use a Metabo stripper on the exterior. Then sand and finish. Reinstall using plastic v-seal weatherstrip. I've used copper and v-seal, and will likely never use copper again. Copper lasts forever, but the v-seal makes window operation slick as can be. Use tools that hook to vacuum attachments and a proper HEPA vac. Vacmaster makes the cheapest HEPA vac out there, and it will get the job done. If I had to guess at rates being charged versus how much time I know it takes to do the job having done more than a few windows, it's $150 to $200 an hour if people are quoting $600 per window.

Now, if you just want them to work, that's much easier. Free up the paint, pull sashes, re-cord (if broken), put on v-strip, and then add storm to protect the window. Hour per. That's the best use of your money, by far versus doing a wholesale restoration. I did a full-scale restoration of about 15 windows over the course of a few weeks once upon a time, nights after work, using copper stripping, pulling each window, replacing all putty. Waste of time. Make the bottom sash work, touch up the putty, sand the top layer of paint flat (after checking for lead), spray, apply storm, and call it a day. Call a painter for this level of work, and do the cords yourself.

Also important is whether you're talking about removing interior or exterior paint... Interior paint is a heat gun job and expensive. Exterior paint is a sand flat with a HEPA vac and/or use mechanical stripper and sand and spray. Interior could also be a sand flat and spray. You won't be able to tell the difference between a full strip, apart from some minor enhancement of definition in the moulding details. The last project we did a sand flat and spray, and it came out great on the painted windows. 13 other windows were a full strip of paint and stain, which was a horrifying amount of work, but we stripped back three full rooms to original, so it was necessary. When spraying have them use Jasco Mask and Peel. Ask the painter how he plans to mask. If he says he'll tape them, or paint them all by hand, don't hire him, because he doesn't know what he's doing.

Anyone house that has 200 years of layers of paint has been badly neglected. A schedule of repainting every ten years would be 20 layers of paint, ridiculous.

Many contractors would prefer that all old windows should be replaced since that would give them a steady stream of business of replacing windows on a ten to fifteen year cycle per home. Scaring people off of restoring perfectly good windows is a scam and I would never trust anyone that attempted that ploy on me.

I Restore windows As well as replace, the reality for me is 99 out 100 prefer going new. I would be more Leary of people underestimating time , telling me how easy something is when it’s not. Your not going to set up A containment, a separate containment to do the work, strip both sides of a window, replace glazing , prime and paint , replace sash cords, replace broken glass in 3 hours per window. Then you have the jamb, wells, Parting stops and pulleys that Have not even been addressed. Then add weatherstripping and materials.

The plastic v seal sucks and looks cheap. I think the interlocking zinc Iooks best, followed by V shaped spring bronze and I use a rubber build seal at the bottom, top and check Rail. Windows can be done hand just as well and anyone who sprays Professionally knows headaches of being compliant.

As far as basic tools and materials we now have poly, tape, window zipper, basic hand tools, hepa vac, stripper, primer, paint , glazing, steam box, paint sprayer, cheap or quality weatherstripping, safety equipment, rope, glass, glazing pins, parting stops, heat gun. Don’t forget empty nights and weekends.

Find me one contractor in here that has claimed they should be replaced or that any historic and old growth timber should be replaced?

I will wait for that example.

What the actual contractors in this forum HAVE SAID is that the flippant manner in which restoration has been mentioned DOES NOT encompass the process or full scope of the project.

Perhaps you should spend more time addressing the comments that have been made vs. shadow boxing with yourself over things that haven't been said.

What the actual contractors in this forum HAVE SAID is that the flippant manner in which restoration has been mentioned DOES NOT encompass the process or full scope of the project......Best comment of the entire thread.

Since everyone commenting agrees that these windows should be restored, the disagreements in the thread boil down to (once again) the professionals concerns about ensuring that the restoration is done right, including making sure that all the little details are covered, and the "non-professionals" preference is in getting the job done as fast and as cheaply as possible with apparently little regard for the fine details or overall quality of the final result.

Raye, still curious what glass it is (cheap and easy to find) that you would recommend using in the "restored" windows assuming that you need to replace lites during the process.

Old windows were made to be repaired and restored easily. Windows have been restored and repaired for centuries by people that didn't even have power tools so making it into the most difficult, impossible should be federally regulated job is just silly. Many other posters here have discussed how they did the work themselves and there are books explaining that it isn't rocket science, it's basic carpentry that any homeowner should be capable of doing. If you seriously want to learn more get John Leeke's "Saving America's Windows", it's how I learned and you can to.

Really Oberon - you don't know that you can have glass cut at Lowe's or many other hardware stores?

I’m not recommending these be restored or replaced merely trying help with what the original poster was trying to. Personally I would have no problem replacing them and would do so if was my house. No matter which you support does not make you untrustworthy as long as your t telling the truth. From what I have seen , the people that are pro restoration often distort what is actually involved, how long it takes and claim its so easy , so just it yourself. Not in this case but quite often data such as air infiltration and U-values gets quite distorted. Inflated and unproven numbers get used to promote restoration and very outdated information gets used to condemn replacements.

The distortion isn't confined to just the glass in these discussions. It definitely does take set of rose colored glasses to look at a proper restoration and say you need a couple of tools and an hour or two for a proper restoration.

I agree , Who’s being dishonest when it’s being said it will take 3 hours per window and no special tools needed? With a containment and clean up an insert takes me Roughly 3-4 per window. Restorations are easily doubled at a minimum depending on what level you go to.

The pro is the only one that stated 3 hours per window. I do mine a little bit each day and don't care how long it takes, I enjoy doing it. And no, it doesn't have to be perfect, they certainly weren't perfect to start with.

One of the most consistent arguments that restoration fans use against window replacement is saving the original "wavy" glass. Obviously you aren't going to find wavy glass at either Lowe's or any other box store.

So I presume that you are saying that replacing wavy glass with modern smooth glass is acceptable when restoring windows?

Considering that around a third of the glass in my windows had already been replaced with flat glass it's certainly fine to use.

Us purist shun you .

If you do it one at a time, it's going to take a lot longer. The low time estimates are if you want to setup a workstation to do the SASHES in bulk. The first half dozen will take longer, since as with anything there is a learning curve. Any, yeah, probably a solid $600 in tools to hit that sort of speed. Which is I why I recommended against going full bore one them. Most people just want them to work right, and look decent. That isn't nearly as hard. Clean up the existing putty, sand things so you can get a flat finish (with random orbit connected to a HEPA vac if lead tests positive), v-fin, spray them out, and done, with a re-cord if necessary. Paint time with bulk spraying drops by at least a factor of 10, with far superior results. And the v-fin doesn't look bad. You can see all of a half inch of it.

raye smith are you just trolling here? You can't possibly believe some of the things that you are saying. Talking about 200 layers of paint, restoring windows is so easy , and no lead paint of 200 year old windows??? Hun, putting the swab from the $6 home depot kit directly on the paint surface is not how you test for lead. These other guys are being nice. There is actually zero chance that your home doesn't have lead paint on the windows. Its fine to be ignorant, whatever, eat paint chips all day for all I care, but its not helpful to give terrible advice to others that can cost them dearly. And then as icing on the cake, you accuse the professionals on the thread that have unanimously supported the OP in restoring his windows of somehow being a "scam to replace their windows"?! Really?? What comments are you reading? Those paint chips and stripper fumes are getting to you. This is one of the more bizarre things that I've seen in a while.

Ryan Heath, I agree with the other guys if you want to restore your windows go for it. Based on the pics and description, looks like a worthy cause. Heed the professional advice though, make sure you plan for the proper amount of time and money that may be needed, and watch out for mcdonalds cashiers telling you how to do home improvements.

Gotta agree with Fridge.

The only time I have seen a window on my jobs come Back negative for lead Pre 1930‘s was when they were never painted at all. It is fairly common to see the interior side be negative for lead but the exterior side and wells and jambs always are. All my jobs are tested by via XRF and. By licensed professionals and using HUD standards for. Lead based paint. Typically the older the house the higher amount of lead in the paint, everything from the 1800’s typically Has very high concentrations of lead in the paint. Once you get into the 60’s the concentration levels gets much lower , often low enough that it is not considered lead paint by HUD definition.

Maybe restoring window is just like restoring old paint on a car...? Where is the NuFinish for old windows?

I think a troll could be defined as someone that misquotes. As in from my prior post:

"Anyone house that has 200 years of layers of paint has been badly neglected. A schedule of repainting every ten years would be 20 layers of paint, ridiculous.

If, as you claim, all old house have lead paint in them then why do you bother to test? Isn't that a waste of your clients money?

Lead makes for terrific paint; that's why they used it. It's not harmful unless it's ingested.

And its easily inhaled via dust during a "restoration" if not deploying proper PPE and containment.

The windows also create dust upon opening and closing. Then the dust settles upon things and you get hand to mouth ingestion.

Most of the houses I do are tested because it is a HUD requirement and the testing is not done or paid by me. They actually test every building components In the house and other things as well. On projects I do that are not funded by HUD I do not bother. With testing and assume that it is positive.

@User, I can't speak for others, but for us: Absolutely. Yes, its a total waste of money to test for lead on windows in old homes. We simply default to lead safe procedures and treat it as though lead is present because it probably is. The only way we recommend a test is if the home is built in the 70's. Most window and door companies that I know use a similar practice.

Keep in mind that there are other considerations as well. Once a lead test is completed and positive, that can have major ramifications when you go to sell your home. A homeowner has the choice to spend a few hundred dollars to avoid that possibility, or roll the dice and end up having to spend far more on lead abatement when it comes time to sell the home. This may not apply to homeowners testing themselves (although ethically it should), but its locked in when the test is done by a certified professional.

The owner would be required to give all reports pertaining to lead to the seller. The contractors final RRP Report would be part of that Requirement . The report would show that lead assumed to present . The only way I see a the owner being forced to do abatement is they with held Information. Replacing the window or removing the paint (as long. As the frame is done as well)is an abatement method . It’s all locked in weather you test or not. I have not seen a home owner forced to abatement yet in this case. Most of my jobs contain multiple pages of testing showing many Components other than the windows being positive for lead. Never seen or anyone forced to do abatement unless they Had previous orders to do so.

@toddinmn , I was not suggesting that lead would need to be abated without a test, and with lead safe procedures used instead. I was suggesting the opposite.

Abatement can be required when a positive lead test was completed. I've personally been part of instances where this was required based on the buyer's FHA financing.

The seller's disclosure of lead based paint hazard has a clear distinction between whether a buyer has knowledge of lead paint or not. Its purpose is not to say "Well maybe, a contractor used lead safe procedures just in case". That's fine for that info to be conveyed, but my whole point is that a definitive positive test can cause added expense and more issues when it comes time to sell than simply using lead safe procedures would.

FHA should come to there own conclusions regardless of what box is checked. If you have proof the FHA is overlooking lead because one decided not to test for it I’d love to see it. Homeowners do not have accept a FHA offer or even consider it. Any buyer can request additional Lead testing to be done And they ask this work to by abatement. Professionals

if they want.

The Homeowner is in control regardless of the box they check.

Beautiful windows! From what I can see those are worth saving - so much character and wouldnt you rather have those tens of thousands of dollars you save to spend on something else? A quality restored double hung window is a pleasure to operate and retains value.

Do you have storm windows? Look into getting quality, top of the line storm windows (assuming these are the norm for your area and neighborhood) That would secure your windows and get them weather tight, and give you time to work on the windows. If you remove the sashes and have totake them in to be reglazed, that only costs bout $30-40 per sash around here - YMMV . Reglazing is the most PITA part of the process I think. Old windows can be tricky to figure out - theres all kinds of crazy ways they are put together. I hired a guy to do the first four and he taught me how to do them so I could finish the remaining 12.

It’s going to cost you more than $30 per sash. A quality storm is gonna set you back at least $200 in materials

only.

Debbie - that's great, smart way to learn! Ignore the "pros" they're being ugly about anyone doing their own windows.

Pretty easy to tell who the adults in the conversation are at this point.

Todd the $30-40 was for reglazing of a single wood window sash (not storm window)- OP would disassemble the window, remove sashes and take them to a shop which does this work. Generally that would be a local glass shop and not a big box. Yes a storm window would be more like $200 .... for an actual storm window eg Larson or something like that ... not "materials." The better quality ones offer better seal and can be had with e glass and the colors can look quite attractive on a house I suppose a historical purist might rebuild a wood storm window but I wasnt talking about that. Sorry if my post was unclear.

Dam $30, it cost over 2x that for a single storm sash reglaze by me.

Millworkman, I did say YMMV. $60 could still be a bargain if you hate reglazing as much as I do LOL.

The folks that do re-glaze well...its artwork. I am not willing to invest that kind of time to be THAT good at something that I rarely use. But darnit if they aren't "ARTISTES" at it.

It’s the deglazing I dislike..

"$60 could still be a bargain if you hate reglazing as much as I do LOL."

No that was of a single storm sash. TDL it would be that dam near per lite (5" x 7" or whatever size x amount lites per sash)