Water pop will not even out the grain. You need to use a darker dye for base coat.

This appears to be an unusual application for aniline dye. We only use it for intense colors like black or deep browns. The few times we tried to get it more of a medium color, it lapped and blotched significantly.

I'm not trying to fight the orange anymore. In fact, I think it's fine as long as I have any stain on before. Before I sanded my floors, I had no stain color, they just sealed them and poly'ed them. And I didn't like the yellow orange of that. I do'nt mind a darker orange, even if it goes super orange over the years. As long as it's a medium or darker orange rather than the one from leaving the wood as is. In my city, the traditional apartments with high ceiling apartments have very orange floors, they look kind of cool here and looks right here. The yellow and raw look without stain doesn't look in place here with our types of decor and style.

Learn to love pine. It’s a waste of money to do any of this. Clear coat it and move on. It’s a great foundation for the hot Modern Zen design style which combines natural wood tones with lots of white, and colors of nature, like stone greige, moss green, and lake blue. Cold and gray is dead and 5 years ago.

I'm thinking to white wash the floors---would that be an easier color to work with on pine? That way I'm just focusing on cutting the yellow down and then I'm not trying hard to make the stain be not blotchy etc. Of course would finish it with water based poly. Would this work?

No. Leave it alone. Focus your design efforts above the floor level.

I would love to leave it alone, but the floors have been sanded! So I have to finish them?? And to answer your other comment......why would I change the floors that are in my house?? You said why do I have pine and I should change them. I’m not gonna do a big construction work. im staining flooors that have just been sanded...

@C A - I would not white wash pine. It has huges amounts of tannins in it. That means the COLOUR (the gold tones that are upsetting you) will leach to the surface of the wood (part and parcel of pine...'cause that's what it does). The tannins will then stain the white wash from UNDERNEATH. It looks very much like nicotine stains....not nice.

If you do not like the gold tones (eg. you like the freshly sanded look) then use a tannin blocker (like a sealant) then 3 coats of WATER BASED finish. Water based finishes (like Loba 2K Supra AT or Bona Traffic HD) do NOT discolour! They stay clear....like glass.

The oil based finishes turn orange...the colour you do NOT like right now. Fine. Drop the oil based (pay more....and like your floors more) finishes. Awesome! Now onto the 'wood' stuff. Pine and Fir and Cedar (soft woods all) LOVE to leach out the yellow tannins (tannins are the things that turn a cup of tea orangey-brown...just sayin') and bring them to the surface where they SIT under the finish.

No problem says the well versed Flooring Pro. We'll use a tannin blocking sealant and go from there! Job...Well...Done.

What people are trying to say about pine is: It is a wood that is hard to make look like something else. It is pine. It will always be pine. Pine is best left alone in it's natural state. The FINISH on top will DETERMINE the ORANGE colour (oil based = always bright orange). If you don't like the oil COLOUR then work with the water based polyurethanes.

It is easier to switch out (and pay for) the OIL based for WATER based than it is to remove the pine from your home.

But switching out SOMETHING is really the only way you are going to get away from the 'bright orange' you were seeing.

I do'nt mind orange. As long as I do'nt leave the floors as raw and unstained, then put oil based on top. If it's gonna be orange, I prefer a dark orange---so any color stain on the wood, even a warm amber stain plus an oil poly. Even if it gets more amber over time. I don't mind that. So that is one option. HOWEVER, my problem is that I feel the contractor did not sand my edges as well as the center of the room, so I'm worried about what stain to use or if I need to water pop etc as I'm afraid color might not come out so uniform (I know it's gonna have some blotchiness anyway as it's pine).

The other thing I would not mind is leaving it natural BUT we have no special sealers in the country I'm in. Only very yellow oil sealers. I CAN get water based floor finish and simply just do that and only that on top.

When I sanded the floors in order to refinish them, they had an oil based sealer on them and then a very nasty cheap oil baed poly on top. They got almost neon yellow looking, i hated it.

I do'nt mind the natural yellowish of the pine as long as the water based poly can keep it more chill and not go neon. Otherwise, I do'nt mind to embrace the orange look, but I want it with some sort of stain first. Another option in my country is that they tint shellac, this makes things a bit more uniform, almost opageu too as the color sits on top, but we still see grain. It's not a bad idea too. But then they usually finish that with an oil poly.

But also what about white oil based stain? Like Varathane antique white—-still the tannins of the pine will bleed through it?

I suggest you take the stain you like and try a mix with white stain. This can have an interesting effect, like coffee with cream. It could be applied over water popped wood, though you'd likely want to use a water based finish over the top to avoid affecting the color of the stain with the surface finish. I'd start with 10% stain and 90% White, the add more stain from there. White stain is rather chalky and can help even out color variations in my experience.

But can I use just white oil based stain? or will the tannins also bleed through?

Yes, you can, but, you will need to seal it with a non yellowing sealer afterwards to prevent tannin bleed through.

Ok we have Varathane water based sealers here. As far as stain, there is Varathane antique white. OR I can use some white paint and water---is that going to cause tannin bleed though?

You will need to call varathane for info on their product. The wood needs to be sealed well. Diluted paint is not enough, too thin.

Can your contractors use something other than Varathane/Rustoleum for your wood? I liken these to DIY level products. I prefer to see a pro (like G & S and Timothy W, etc) use the BIG boys like Bona Traffic HD or Loba 2K Supra AT.

Varathane isn't even on the same playground as the Big Boys. If the Big Boys are 'Pro Ballers' then Varathane/Rustoleum are 12 year olds kickin' playing a game of pick-up B-ball at their local school court.

If I'm paying someone to apply finish, I want to make sure the finish is MORE valuable than the labour to apply it. Varathane comes in around $80/gallon. Compare that to $180/gallon Bona Traffic HD or (horrors! shock! dismay!) $200+/gallon of the Loba 2K Supra AT.

Just sayin'.

Varathane and minwax are the highest brands in my country unfortunately.

Would aniline dyes help even out areas sanded Not so well (I might have some spots)? I’m trying to figure out either to simply put water based finish over my floor unstained and call it day, or to try to get something semi trasparent so I dont have high contrast stripey grains making a busy looking floor. That is why I’m wondering to have them do their hand mixed water dye colors then tint shellac and put that on top—will give a semi-transparent look. but, they will finish it with oil poly probably

@SJ McCarthy I‘m knee deep into my flooring project now and I’m deciding between which Loba product to use. Today was Day 2 of sanding my pre red oak floors to go with a Natural non-yellowing finish. My contractor was originally planning to use Loba Viva Satin, but after researching the products, it seems that’s one of their lower tiered products and I’m afraid of the fact that the product details do not mention a non yellowing effect as does the Loba WS 2K Supra or the Loba 2K Supra AT. I will have to pay an additional $1100 for the 2K Supra or additional $1400 for the 2K Supra AT and I’m trying to understand how much benefit will I get in terms or durability between the basic and the two upgrades versions. Any thoughts are appreciated. I will attach a few pics of progress so far.

Everything is raw except the far right square which has a few coats of Loba Viva in Satin. I like that it kept the natural color of the wood, but am concerned about long term durability and quality. I’m also interested in a bit more sheen, so I’m leaning toward a semigloss finish.

Here is the original color. Any thoughts on the finish and products are welcome.

@C A, any type of colorants will highlight sanding imperfections. Clear coats will hide it best.

@classychic563 I've sold both the WS 2K Supra AND the 2K Supra AT. There is NO comparison to the top dog, 2K Supra AT! The $1400 doesn't even concern me! Pay it and move on.

Once you've had 2K Supra AT, you will NEVER want another finish. Ever. It is velvety smooth. It is HIGH grip! And oh...yah...best scratch resistance in the biz! Nope. Not kidding! The scratch resistance is SO good it protects CORK for 15-25 years...without any effort. If it is tough enough to keep cork protected, it will outperform on any other wood!

Pay the $1400 and consider this decision made.

@G & S Floor Service how do I then make it a clear coat so I do'nt see a major yellowing after? We do'nt have water based sealers here. Do I use an oil based sealer then use water based floor finish? Or do I use such a light stain like the Varthane Antique white then clear coat it? The white stain barely shows on the wood, so the discrepancies won't show as much. But the stain will at least seal the wood before the clear coat? Or do I simply skip any stain and any sealer and just clear coat it?

@classychic563 can you please turn that into a separate post discussion?

Water pop, then stain. Regarding Varathane's finishes, contact Varathane's tech support for their recommendations. Number is on side of the can.

But my question is....will the white oil based stain be ok with a floor that has some sanding problems? It barely shows up. Then I can finish with water based poly. OR, must a use a sealer before I put the poly? In my country we only have cheap oil based sealers---this will color my floor yellow. If I stain it white, is the stain enough of a "sealer" for me to then top coat it?

White stain will be fine with sanding imperfections. imperfections do not show up on pastels and neutral stains compared to medium and dark stains. You still need to use a sealer to prevent tannin bleed through. You can apply a super clear water base finish and hope for the best.

I might have to go for white or neutral stain then. But is it imperative I do a sealer before the poly? We have no good sealers here, no water based ones too. Only water based floor finish (varathane).

If, you do white, you need a sealer.

So the only one I can get here is an oil based sealer. So I guess my floors will get very yellow then? Even if I finish with water based poly...

yes, it will turn yellow.

what about if I stain them with oil based white stain....then I do a layer of clear shellac---we have shellac flakes we have to dissolve ourselves etc. Then I do the water based poly. ?

OH I remember this story. Your trying to do something in a country that has nothing but oil based or shellacs or lacquers...but you don't like the intensity of those. So you are trying to find something to do with these floors other than an orange finish...and the only 'other' products are Varathane or Minwax...and the N. African locals have VERY little knowledge of how to work those.

I still say Varathane clear polyurethane x3 coats and be done with it. Your location limits you. You are welcome to nip North to Germany and pick up your products (Loba = Germany) when the pandemic ends (Germany's numbers are still quite high...so try not to get on a plane for another 4-6 months).

Yup you got it. I still have not found anyone to do the floors. Been living with bare sanded floors for a couple months that I cannot walk on and rooms I cannot use. Everyone who has made me samples have made me ones that look absolutely terrible. We can’t order chemicals, liquids etc here. I cannot go to Germany and buy stuff or order online, it will never be allowed in the country. Like I said, I do not mind orange, as long as it is dark, not unstained raw look floors that get neon yellow over time (like mine were)

here is a photo of how pine floors look in the old homes. I actually like this kind of orange. It somehow fits in the old high ceiling apartments here and goes with our decor. I dont mind it. But as I said im not sure how well my floors were sanded on the edges. thats why I’m thinking a water based dye—thats what they do here then to tint a shellac then oil based poly. The tinted shellac gets almost like a semi transparent stain so the grain gets a bit more evened out, I’m trying to get some color of top to fix how messy the sanding got and give me something kinda more opague. the old floors here kinda look more opague too.

But @SJ McCarthy i can use water based poly directly on the raw wood and finish it? Without putting any sealer? I thought at least I have to put a stain, even a light one

Samples, samples, samples, it help you decide on color, finish and process.

I'm making samples. But samples will not show me what will happen over time if I dot NOT use a sealer and just put white oil based stain and water based poly....OR simply ONLY put water based poly directly on the raw wood. So I'm asking if this can be done. I made a couple samples today with the white, of course looks nice now, but how do I know if the tannins are gonna come through?

Time....lots and lots of time. Tannin pull can take time.

Water based polys allow tannin pull (tannins are water soluble - that's how they got into the tree in the first place...osmosis is a cool thing). The water base hits the wood and starts to dissolve a little bit of the tannins (in the wood...below the surface). Then the finish dries = like sucking coke through a a straw = moving the tannins to the surface. A SEALANT stops this. Colourless sealant. Varathane/Minwax make sealants. No big deal.

Those OLD floors have 40+ years of DIRT imbedded in them. And soap...and anything else the owners have thrown at them during that time (lye soap anyone??).

If you like the darker colour than simply get your refinishers - with TECHNIQUES they know - to use the darkest shellac chips with the darkest tints in the oil based polys that they used. Dark + dark = dark.

If you want SUPER PALE (not white...sigh...) then get the water based poly from Varathane. Find a sealant IF YOU WANT....it isn't necessary....but if you WANT to keep the super pale, you will need the sealant. If you don't mind a hint of gold (not orange...gold...like aged maple) then don't do anything else. Just lay down the 3 coats of water based poly finish and be done with it.

If, the wood does not get a good seal. You will see yellow spots show through as you are coating. Over time, those spots will be more obvious.

We have white shellac flakes here. Can I seal with a coat of that then use the water based poly? @G & S Floor Service

@SJ McCarthy i don’t mind a bit of gold. I’m just worried if I go straight with the water poly on raw wood that the wood can turn greenish over time (I read something about that. I did find out today we have white shellac flakes here....I asked the guy if it is in fact white or the super light yellow. He said white but I wont know til he brings me it. Can i use clear shellac as a sealer?

As far as what you said about dark—they should tint the oil poly too? this sample is them having done a water based dye, then a shellac that was tinted dark. He wiped on a water based finish that is meant for walls not floors. Of course we would not use that, we would use a local oil based poly probably. or I can get varathane water based. The tinted shellac hid a lot of the contrast in the grain, it came across like a semi transparent tint. I like it and don’t mind the orange of it at all.

so I can either go super light and natural or do dark like this. I’m open to anything, I just don’t want a blotchy mess as they messed up the edges of the floor when sanding, we tried to go over it again but I can tell it’s still a problem.

Make samples to determine color and process. Choose one and trust it.

I did that. Many samples I made. But does anyone know if I can use clear shellac over the floor as a sealer then apply water based poly??

If i put just the poly straight onto the floor with no stain, no sealer, will the wood get greenish eventually? I read that water based poly cannot be put straight onto raw wood?

I'm not finding these answers anywhere.

Yes, you can use defaced shellac as a universal sealer, then apply a water base over it. This will work for medium to dark colors. Avoid doing it over whites and grays.

Even the white shellac cannot be used over white wash or White stain?

I have never used white shellac, cannot comment on it.

Water based polyurethanes can be put down over raw wood. Period. That's what they are FOR. To STOP tannin pull (and nothing else) you can use a WOOD sealant. Shellac is a different fish...and it LOVES to turn orange...bright orange. Why would you keep trying that one??

Green is not part of pine's colour range. It is part of WHITE OAK'S colour range...which is part of where you are getting confused about water based over WHITE OAK...

You have YELLOW WOOD. It is pale today. You can put down STRAIGHT water based (as we've been telling you all along). That water base will cause TANNIN pull. It will INCREASE the gold. You said you don't mind gold.

So what's the issue?

No one...and I mean NO ONE can tell you what will happen with YOUR pine, in YOUR country, in YOUR house, with YOUR situation in 10 years.

You have a choice...put down something (like the Varathane Clear coat) or continue to have 30% use of your home because your floors are in a raw state.

It's your choice. I wish you well but you are over thinking this.

I said that we have a white shellac here...

I was asking about that cause no one answered that question. Not over thinking. I'm trying to go for white.

I don't mind gold if I HAVE to do that. But I prefer not too. Hard to get info online.

And I was told to NOT put water poly straight onto the wood...so of course I need to ask about that before I make a mess.