What is "some movement"?

Houses have to move, or they break. Look at the skyscrapers designed to sway in the wind. Total rigidity is bad.

But there’s “movement” and deflection. The two aren’t synonymous. If you’ve got bounce, and cracking tiles and cracking grout, that’s a whole different thing. Floors can still deflect snd be perfectly sturdy. They just aren’t rigid enough for some floor coverings.

PPF - the floors somewhat “crunch, crack & pop” when walked on. Have never had a situation like this. No cracking tiles though.

HO-UZZ812

I know houses have to be able to expand & contract. What do you mean by not rigid enough for some floor coverings? The floor joists are 2x12, 16” oc. I have hardwood & tile.

Do you know what kind of sub floor you have?

"the floors somewhat “crunch, crack & pop” when walked on"

Recently or since installation?

The amount of layers of subfloor will help us figure things out. Traditionally a subfloor is two layers. The "deflection" rating is figured out by the 'floor joists' + total thickness of wooden subfloor. If the subfloor is too thin, then your deflection is TOO HIGH = not good enough for tile...and possibly wood.

How long have you been living with the noise?

The subfloor is Advantec. Only sub floor material that I’m aware of. It’s pretty rugged. I think the floor issue has only been happening a few years. I’m curious? What two products are typically used for a subfloor?

Picture

What type of material are you referring to please?

Underlayment or subfloor (generally plywood), it typically goes over the decking and under the floor systems.

The joist material, height, depth, and span come into a deflection equation. Many homes are designed to the L360 lowest allowable number, which is fine for carpet. Modern large format tile floors require L720, That’s twice as rigid as the lowest allowable standard. When you get deflection, you get issues.

You can calculate your deflection here if the build used dimensional lumber. If the build used engineered components, that should be stamped on them, and included in the paperwork. https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl

In short...look to see how THICK your subfloor layers are. The easiest way = find a floor vent and take it out. Look at the cross-section. Measure the BOTTOM of the layers (that's your advantec) to the BOTTOM of the hardwood/tile (which ever floor vent is easiest to remove).

The THICKNESS is part of the equation. You can find the equation in the link @User issued above. See how CLOSE to the L720 number your thickness gets you to. My guess is it isn't even close. Which means you either live with it...or redo the entire (rip out wood and tile...lay new layer of plywood over what you already have, remove all doors/floor trim and then lay ANOTHER layer of substrate and then add new tile and hardwood).

It is a PITA...which is why pros always tell clients to 'beef up' the 'bones' of the house. That means the envelope (the stuff that keeps out the rain/snow/sunlight/etc) and the insulation and the subfloor thicknesses...etc). All the stuff that is near-impossible to 'access' at a later date. Kitchen cabinets are easy to remove. Removing all flooring and then adding ANOTHER layer of substrate is a B!TCH of the Royal Kind (could be Imperial...whichever way you want to go with that).

Ok. I’ve got some investigating to do. I did find out that there is underlayment under the tile floors. But they have issues as well. It’s a trussed roof system if that comes into any equation.

What's the underlay under the tile? Is it plywood or is it cement board? Is it possible to get photos and measurements?

Will be back in touch later today. Thank you for your interest.

find a heat register in the floor pull it out and snap a picture of buildup.

Mud beds, , Levelers, thinsets, medium beds, grouts, and improperly bedded CBU can all crunch and crumble when deflection is present. .....Seasonal movement shall always be accommodated w perimiter and field expansion joint placements. If thats not followed you can also have de-bonding and eventually tenting perhaps predated by crunching.

Here’s a picture of a lifted vent in a tiled area. I have to say my tile guy is one of the best in the area and has done a substantial amount of tile work for me. I’m now exploring whether or not there was an issue with the adhesive used between the joists and Advantec subfloor. Any thoughts? What do most builders use?

I’ve sent him a text asking him specifically what was used on top of the Advantec. Will post after he replies. Contractors use this tile guy on multi-million dollar homes...

They probably have invisible bad work too.

“I’ve done it this way for 30 years” and never RTFM is a guarantee of failure. As above. Major dumbassery failure at the very basics. Send Schluter that pic. You’re going to need expert ammunition for a fight. It’s a complete redo.

This is seriously a Tile Fail FB post. There’s a whole group about unbelievable installs. This would get a lot of traction. And that’s only the start. If he got that so badly wrong, he is sure to have messed up the wet areas. Using a product doesn’t mean using it correctly. The devil is in the details.

If I hire a “structural engineer”, would they be able to tell me what went wrong and what needs to be corrected? And where does your expertise come from?

Following.

This has nothing to do with your structural. It’s all ”the flooring guy”. Had he never worked with Kerdi before? He couldn’t go on their YouTube channel? He couldn’t read the instructions that came with it? Or call them? They are a company that is very happy to help even maroons have a successful install.

That type of old man know it all hubris says you’ve got major major issues in multiple places. Unbelievable.

No structural engineer needed. Just call your local Schluter rep. After you send them that pic. They don’t even need to come out. But they are happy to.

Dude. You can get your point across w/o being an ass. Where does YOUR expertise come from?

You can read the Schluter instructions as well as anyone. Inform yourself. I posted one of the diagrams that show you. If you don’t accept the manufacturer’s installation requirements being violated here, and want to pin it on someone besides the (typical) substandard tile guy, good luck with that. Just because a guy is likable doesn’t mean he knows what he is doing. Your guy was clueless. Everything he touched is suspect.

https://youtu.be/wMzXu1NRMAM

Tile guy screwup. Easily visible in the pic. Snap. Crackle. Pop. Is inevitable.

"Both products have some movement happening when walking on them."

So the issue is not germane to only the tile area which means in addition to the tile installers issues there must be deflection issues since this is also happening at the wood floor. You need to find out what the floor joist system is and what the load rating is.

I’m trying to send a couple of freakin pictures but this app is fighting me. I have one of the materials list for the framing etc.

Does this help determine anything? I can get more info. if need be. I did find out the oak hardwood was put directly on top of the Advantec.

You have ONE layer of 0.75" subfloor. As I've already stated , the NORM is TWO layers. @mill@millworkman has stated that 1" thickness ( or better) is the requirement for many many jurisdictions. If your area has that requirement, your builder has gone too thin. Too thin means your subfloor is going to act like a trampoline.

The reason why 2 layers are better than one: if you have to pull up th top layer of subfloor, you still have a layer underneath to stand on.

Imagine if, by removing the tile, you damage the Avantec to the point of full removal, you will have a hole in your floor that looks into your basement. That's a BAD thing.

Your builder probably saved him/herself $5,000 on plywood and labour. That goes straight into their pocket...and that's why this stuff happens.

To get a "free do over" you will need to find out what your local building codes are (city hall should be able to help you). *IF you can prove your builder contravened local ordinances, you can go after them in court. But you might have to hurry.

First off I want to thank several of you for your input regarding my issue. I’m learning quite a bit. I wanted to post a picture of the floor framing blueprint that was used.
I’m going to get in touch with Schluter regarding my tile install as well.

You have totally confused me. What diagrams are you referring to that are wrong? Panel? Huber? And are you speaking of Relative Humidity?

What @Mint tile Minneapolis is saying, @7 & Done, that you need to take your questions to bigger and more well schooled Experts than you will find on Houzz.

You are looking at (possibly) serious issues. The OSB *might not be Advantec. Your joists *might not be the right type for the REQUIREMENTS they were built to hold.

In short...if you add up all the *ifs and the *mights you could be looking at a big can of worms. There is no way for us, a publicly access design (pretty pretty) website.

You may have to get yourself a lawyer and a building engineer....to PROVE that what the builder gave you is inappropriate for the design written by the architect.

In other words...please find yourself a local Expert (who you will hire) to work on your behalf to prove the issue is bigger than the tiles moving and the wood floors bouncing.

Those of us on Houzz cannot diagnose this. And the effort needed to educate you (not a bad thing...just a 'thing') is WELL beyond the most of us have to write a few hundred words a day. It is an entire course in physics and chemistry.

And yes, RH = Relative Humidity. OSB is KNOWN to have quite a bit of shrinkage if the home's humidity levels are NOT maintained ABOVE 40% RH. Which brings in the HVAC system, the footprint of the house, the volume of air it has to move, your location in the world as to whether or not your system is good enough. And that's a whole 'nother scholastic tutoring. Again, well beyond what we have to give (time wise and knowledge wise).

Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this. I have called a structural engineer to come take a look at my house. I’ll keep you all posted on the outcome.

AdvanTech used for decking 100%.

3/4" AdvanTech^^. What thickness was specified in the plans?

Matt Rissinger on using AdvanTech: I opt for the 1-1/8-inch panel on most of my projects because I want zero bounce in the floor.

https://www.huberwood.com/blog/advantech-subflooring-vs-osb-vs-plywood

Ok. So I had a structural engineer come to my house. His findings were that the OSI adhesive failed, likely due to the fact that it must have froze at some point. The house was framed during the winter. 3/4” Advantech was used for the subfloor. (Our architect stated it is industry standard.) He, SE, also confirmed that 15lb. tar underlayment is under all the wood floors. He also said that all of the tile was correctly installed. Whew! Some of you guys had me really nervous! So that’s that.

Correction! 15 lb FELT underlayment under wood floors.

Ahhh...the STRUCTURE is sound...but you STILL have floors that creak and pop. Which means the issue is not 'done'...just the homework.

What is the plan to fix the original issue?

Following

His findings were that the OSI adhesive failed, likely due to the fact that it must have froze at some point.

Maybe the builder did not use OSI? I wonder how cold it was? Because OSI subfloor adhesive is rated for down to 20 degrees. Sure, a lot of areas of the US do get well below 20 degrees though.

OSI SF450 20°F – 120°F Subfloor Construction Adhesive is a high performance and environmentally friendly latex-based construction adhesive which provides a powerful, permanent bond and is formulated for interior or exterior subfloor construction. Cold weather formula allows easier extrusion and excellent adhesion in cold weather conditions. This adhesive offers fast set, superior strength development and bonds dry, wet, frozen and treated lumber to most building materials.

He did use OSI. I have a lumber slip and also a picture and there’s a box in the picture. SF450

Here’s a picture

Not sure what problem everybody is seeing in the Ditra install - it's an uncoupling membrane; the whole point is that there's an air space between the top/thinset/tile and the bottom/fleece.

As far as it is visible from the side, it looks fine.

HU-469669671
I think I’ll go with my Structural Engineer who spent a significant amount of time examining the situation. Don’t you have some tile work to do?

Thanks for your input RJC.