Someone once asked about damask crud. So I went out and took a picture of Amanda Patenotte.

It got big. Vigor wasn't a problem, but it was one of the roses we got grafted from Mike Lowe. I wasn't in love with the flower form, but the crud was bad. Really bad. It honestly didn't seem to slow the rose down at all, but it sure looked manky.

@mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)--Thank you for the information--if it's bad for you, it will probably be bad for me. I have a couple of roses now with leaves that have been almost entirely black or rusty since early spring, so don't need any more like that. They are vigorous, but ugly except in bloom. One is an early Bourbon type, another is White Bath, and the older foliage of Rose de Resht can be almost as ugly.

Autumn Damask isn't perfect here but it's mostly green and fresh right now and July has been hot and humid--QSBM not quite so good, but not bad. Same for Kazanlik and whatever the other Damask is that resembles the Kazanlik at Rogue Valley.

Monticello sells a rose by the name of Amanda Patenotte,--I asked because I was considering purchase if it is offered this fall. Although I never spent summers in Charlottesville when I was at UVA, I assume humidity would be somewhat lower because it's close to the Blue Ridge.

Lindsey

FWIW, I don't see any "China influence" in my "Portland from Glendora" (own-root, ex Vintage) at all -- leaf, bloom, spines, scent, and everything-else-wise it is pretty much in line with every other damask perpetual I've got. It does have the strongest, most wafting scent among the ones I've got ('Rose du Roi' of commerce, "Rose de Rescht", and 'Jacques Cartier' are the others -- recently got 'Ispahan', but haven't had it long enough to say anything about it).

I've had it growing in the same place at least 12 years now and it has never put up an offshoot, distant or otherwise, which immediately distinguishes it from 'Autumn Damask' (also ex Vintage) here, which ran like a rabbit, coming up here, there, and everywhere, to the point that it and I parted ways (not a comely plant anyway). "Portland from Glendora" is relatively neat and tidy, getting to 7 or 8' by the end of every season and would likely get taller, except I cut her back to 4' every winter. I wouldn't know about blackspot really, as it is only around for maybe a week or two in the very early spring here -- I don't recall seeing it on PfG. She doesn't get the horrific level of crud that my 'Rose du Roi' (of commerce) sometimes gets in the fall.

@catspa_zone9sunset14--Thank your. Your climate is hotter and drier than mine, but I was particularly interested in three of your comments--first regarding the size of Glendora or Amanda whichever it is. Mad Gallica said it was big for her, too. I want something three to four feet. Also want to ask you and others here about Autumn Damask. Are you sure you had AD? Mine has never spread. Has anyone else had an AD that ran like a Gallica? RE: Rose de Resht--nice rose, but mine frequently has dirty, ugly foliage. Some would classify it as Hybrid Perpetual. AD and other true Damasks, Ispahan, and Marchesa Boccella (which I assume is the same as your Jacques Cartier) are much cleaner.

Lindsey

Lindsey, is anyone sure they have AD :-)? There seems to be a range of opinion about that, starting at "extinct" (Dickerson). In their catalog, Vintage lists their source as "Robinson", without indication where Phillip Robinson obtained it, and their description of it mentions "versions" of the rose and stated that they considered their version identical to their 'Summer Damask' (source of that being from Huntington) except that it rebloomed. As for spreading, I need to revise what I said because of faulty memory on my part -- the one in that bed at that time that ran like a rabbit was the "Sappho" Alba, which grew near AD (and once put up a sucker well past AD, on the opposite side of it!). AD suckered more moderately though it did sucker, but the lateral shoots stayed within a foot or so of the main plant. It did have a gangly rangy habit and leaves that aged quickly and badly, especially in the heat -- as I said, not comely. It did re-bloom

I am far from an expert but I think I have the right AD--it's been one of my favorites since I first saw it, and it looks like the once-blooming Damask which I bought later from Pickering under the label Kazanlik or Trigintipetala--I counted the petals--just about 30. These two Damasks and one other which arrived with the wrong name but has a smaller flower with a button eye have the same foliage and habit and can't be easily distinguished, if at all, except in bloom. QSBM has coarser, less attractive, but is a sport of AD-- there are members of this forum who have seen AD sporting. DNA testing shows the three above and York & Lancaster derive from the same three-way cross. They have no China ancestry and are noticeably different from some of the other Damasks grown and mentioned here which do exhibit China traits. I have only six varieties of Damask since my Portland rose died--eight if one counts MB and RdeR.

Lindsey

For comparison, My Autumn Damask is one that Sherri Berglund collected in an old cemetery.

For comparison, my Portland From Glendora/Joasine Hanet is a piece of the one Fred Boutin collected.

I was curious about the "China-like traits", so I went searching around and found this article by Phillip Robinson (Rosa Mundi, Spring/Summer 2007, article here), which seems to lay out the bases of how you are comparing and categorizing these varieties, Lindsey. For one thing, Robinson says, "This rose shows no sign of any China-like leaf smoothness, scent, or petalage," indicating at least three China-like traits. Later on, discussing "Portland from Glendora" specifically, height also seems to matter, "They both ('Sydonie' and "Glendora") make graceful shrubs, becoming bushy and taller than most of the Damask Perpetuals I grow." I can see height as being a more China-like trait (being the proud owner of a 10'+ tall 'Comtesse du Cayla'...), but my inexpert eyes don't see smooth China leaves (leaves are rough and similar to 'Rose du Roi' of commerce, etc. I think), or scent in the flower, on "Portland from Glendora". Robinson considers 'Marchesa Boccella' a Hybrid Perpetual.

In Brent Dickerson's Old Rose History and Synopsis, he puts 'Joasine Hanet' and 'Jacques Cartier' (aka 'Marchesa Boccella') both in Damask Perpetuals (article here). Dickerson also says, toward the end, "Questions about the history and make-up of the Damasks and Damask Perpetuals remain without firm answers, and are probably in the province of scientific rather than historic investigation." So it goes.

I missed the question about hips in the original post. I don't think I've ever seen a mature hip on "Portland from Glendora", nor does HMF list any descendants from her or 'Joasine Hanet'. Here are some receptacles from flowers just finished blooming that I just picked. They are elongate, sparsely glandular, and empty:

My 'Jacques Cartier' (or 'Marchesa Boccella') is an excellent rose here, too, but really quite different (color, habit, flower structure -- PfG flower a bit more "architectural", if that's the right word, than JC -- JC scent not as wafting) from "Portland from Glendora", though both are reliably repeating, over and over, and with full, clean-looking bushes, for the most part. I really love both of them. "Rose de Rescht" does get some crud, sometimes, but 'Rose du Roi' of commerce is really the "champ" for that (if you could call it that) there.

Nice photo of Autumn Damask. Jeri. Mine was gone before I had a camera that could take digital photos... Does yours repeat well?

Thank you for the link. I had a text copy but enjoyed seeing the original with photographs. I have been using Phil Robinson's criteria to narrow the search. That's why I asked about the real Amanda--I wondered whether all roses in commerce under that name were Glendora or whether some might be the original Amanda, and if so, whether the original might be a true Damask Perpetual.

Problem is that the truest Damask Perpetuals that I don't have are also hard or impossible to get--the real Rose du Roi, Panachee de Lyon, and perhaps Catherine Ghislaine.

Lindsey

Lindsey,

I was following AP/JH/PfG discussions, too, for quite awhile. I don’t know if PfG actually is AP, but whatever PfG is, it does seem to be the same rose as the one in commerce as AP. (As has been mentioned by others here and by Paul Zimmerman elsewhere.) I think Catspa has convinced me to either grow it someday, or if I have no room, persuade someone close to me to grow it.

Catspa, your PfG leaves me speechless! And the way you describe the fragrance… Those perfect, romantic, deeply quartered, ”Victorian wallpaper print” blooms have always captivated me. Truly unique!

The rarity of hips sounds like it might be a frustration for your breeding program, Lindsey, darn it. I am very intrigued by your program of breeding non China heritage, remontant Damasks.

It is my understanding that the real Joasine H may be extant and living at Sangerhausen, but it has not been released into commerce. I may have missed news on this one as I have not been paying close attention lately, but I think there is a more Hybrid Perpetual-ish, more purple-ish raspberry rose growing there under the name JH. I saw a few pics on the internet, and they looked fuller and much less quartered than PfG/AP and I could see a bit of a violet tint to the edges of the petals.

Just for the heck of it, Vintage Gardens:

”Joasine Hanet ———Amanda Patenotte (attribution Lowe)

These identities have been ascribed to a found rose we have grown for many years known under the mystery name, “Glendora” or “Portland from Glendora” which is not a Portland in our estimation. We have seen too little evidence to be able to confirm the attribution of Joasine Hanet or of Amanda Patenotte. We include this information here in part because so may sources that are now offering this rose have dropped any reference to the mystery rose, Glendora, although this is what is being sold. Neither Amanda Patenotte nor Joasine Hanet has been revived as yet from named plants in older collections like the Rose- raie de l’Haÿ, or Sangerhausen. We do agree that Glendora fits the type of Vibert’s ‘de Trianon’ HPs.”

Carol

It was one of the first "found" roses I "met," and to me, it will always be "The Portland From Glendora." (I grew up not all that far from Glendora.)

My dear old friend, the late Col. Mel Hulse, told me that he tended to take Sangerhausen's identifications with a large grain of salt. There were two reasons for that: One, that Sangerhausen's documents were taken, near the end of WWII, to Russia. And, Two, that a tank battle was fought over that ground, also during that period.

I don't forget that two un-identified roses at Sangerhausen, went into commerce under incorrect names, resulting in all sorts of confusion.

'Pink Gruss an Aachen' as 'Irene Watts'

and

'Barcelona' as 'Francis Dubreuil'

Pink Gruss/Irene W and FD/Barcelona: Great point, Jeri and Col. Hulse!

A tank battle in the rose garden…..

Carol

Carol,

I agree that Catspa's picture is lovely, but I want a smaller plant and Mad Gallica

said Glendora's foliage was very bad. If bad for her, probably bad for me, too, since our climates have certain traits in common.

By late July most of my Europeans look worn and rusty anyway, although this year my Damasks are the exceptions--they (ADs and three other true Damasks) are almost as fresh and green as they were in spring. The secret, I think, is that I have watered them just enough each day to keep the ground moist, and all have responded with nice, new growth. They look better this summer (which is drier than normal) than they have for the past several summers when we had above-average rainfall.

I don't think Damasks in general produce many hips--at least mine don't. One plant has seven, another two, and a third none; one of two Kazanliks has a single hip.

Lindsey