Awesome! Thank you, Jeri. Carol

Jeri - thank you for such a clear description of what happened, with gorgeous pictures. I have one question - in the 2006 announcement from ARS, it says that Sombreuil is a LFC "introduced in..circa 1880." As I understand that you were involved in some of those discussions at that time, can you let us know where the ARS came up with the "circa 1880" date for the introduction of S? I think that date has added to the confusion -

Jackie

Jackie . . . I think if you check now, ARS has fixed that. I think it came out of the unwillingness of the ARS Rep we were dealing with to accept that the climber wasn't really "Old."

The comparison photos are absolutely WONDERFUL, Jeri. Thank you so much! They really hit the mark for my eyes. The differences are so clear when the flowers and habits of the two roses are presented side by side, so much easier to grasp than pulling up photos of each cultivar on HMF and swapping back and forth between them. Your pics make me wish I could grow both S Cl and MdS! Jeri, do you by any chance have close-up foliage shots that could be posted for comparison, too?

Jackie, thank you for asking the date of intro question! I have oftened been confused by those persistent discrepancies, too.

Both S Cl and MdS are so gorgeous in that creamy, classic, Madame Alfred Carriere way that I’d grow one or the other if I had even a millimeter of space. I have to remove my 20 year old MAC due to circumstances beyond my control and have been looking for space to squeeze a smaller, Teaish, creamy rose to take the edge off the loss. I think it was Catspa who recently expressed kindred, admiring MAC adoration. MAC surely is one of the best of the best, but S Cl and MdS are both truly spectacular! I’ve considered growing MdS in a huge pot since Teas are slow growers here, and then passing her along when she outgrows my tiny garden.

Carol

I'll make a point of taking foliage photos. They're quite different.

Here's a pretty good look at the foliage and stems of 'Mlle. de Sombreuil':

And here is foliage and buds of 'Sombreuil, Cl.' (More mature leaves are darker, this is an immature vi plant)

(Notice that it doesn't have the red stipules that the Tea Rose has.)

Thank you for the foliage photos and noting the color difference in the stipules! I never knew that MdS’s stipules are red and S cl’s are not. Those tiny, often casually overlooked rose parts hold a wealth of information! It is this forum that taught me to pay close attention to them.

Jeri, how long do you think I could grow an own root MdS in a pot before she outgrew it? I could keep upsizing through a 20 gallon. Then I’d have to gift her to someone. I am also considering trying one of the following creamy teas instead, using the size up pot method: Jesse Lopez or Westside Road Cream Tea (which might be the same rose?), Souvenir de la Malmaison (which has remained pot-sized for me in the past) and Devoniensis. I’ve grown so accustomed to gathering gorgeous, fragrant (Noisette-) Tea blooms from MAC all summer long, that I am having a hard time parting ways even though it is a must. The only other Tea I grow (and adore) now is Duchesse de Brabant. My sister bought a house in Portland and needs some roses. I may just plant a creamy Tea like MdS at her place and ”borrow” bouquets. Carol

Jeri, how long do you think I could grow an own root MdS in a pot before she outgrew it? I could keep upsizing through a 20 gallon. Then I’d have to gift her to someone.

*** Here, I'd say at least 2-3 years. You know, Teas don't generally turn into jolly green giants in a big hurry.

I am also considering trying one of the following creamy teas instead, using the size up pot method: Jesse Lopez or Westside Road Cream Tea (which might be the same rose?),

*** "Jesse Hildreth" (not Benny) and "Westside Road Cream Tea" may well be the same. They were planted near each other at the Sacramento City Cemetery, to see . . . But of course, THAT is another disaster

And yeah. I think you could do that.

Souvenir de la Malmaison (which has remained pot-sized for me in the past) and Devoniensis.

*** I'd say, if you could do it with 'Devoniensis,' you can do it with Jesse. (AND with Mlle.deSomb)

I’ve grown so accustomed to gathering gorgeous, fragrant (Noisette-) Tea blooms from MAC all summer long, that I am having a hard time parting ways even though it is a must. The only other Tea I grow (and adore) now is Duchesse de Brabant. My sister bought a house in Portland and needs some roses. I may just plant a creamy Tea like MdS at her place and ”borrow” bouquets. Carol

*** If you want fragrance, and can accommodate a climber, I strongly recommend 'Sombreuil, Cl.'/"Colonial White". It's truly a wonderful rose, a generous bloomer, and Wichurana-tough.

It was one of the first roses we planted, and we still have it.

It's ONLY flaw (if you consider it to be a flaw) is that it's thorny as hell.

Here is a pic of buds and foliage on a mature Sombreuil (Colonial White).

I will be doing an experiment of whether or not Sombreuil can be hard pruned after it is mature, to turn a 3 story high climber into a maybe 8 foot high bush. I have my doubts, but we have to get it off the house because of new Fire regulations, and the base of it is actually 10 feet away from the house now, which is an OK distance, if I can keep it alive and blooming and growing in a different direction! I have seen a Fortune's Double Yellow kept as a round bush about 7 ft by 7 ft by 7 ft, but its canes are way smaller and more pliable than Sombreuill's. I will take pictures of the experiment when we get that far.

Jackie

Thank you SO much for all the Tea info, Jeri! I appreciate your expertise. I think I am definitely going to try a cream Tea in a pot. (That sounds like a scrumptuous afternoon treat in England.) This will be the first time in my life that I’m not tapping my foot impatiently while awaiting a Tea’s slooow rise to maturity. I am going to see if my sister would like to grow S Cl/Colonial White. Your glowing reviews and gorgeous photos are very persuasive. And sis and I both love fragrance in the garden! Maybe I’ll gift her one from ARE as a little something from her former home state TX to her new home state garden in OR. Carol

I look forward to hearing about your progress with Sombreuil’s pruning, Jackie. You are doing an amazing job of reinventing your established garden spaces! I suspect that they will be lovlier than ever once all the hard work and hard choices of removal, soil prep, pruning and replanting are completed. I’m glad Sombreuil is far enough from the house to have a shot at remaining! The mother of invention sure is bending us gardeners into all kinds of new and untested directions as the climate changes. Carol

Yes, it's like the old Chinese curse.....

Jackie

Jackie -- It might work. But take care to give it some space AROUND the plant. It is possible to grow Sombreuil, Cl./Colonial White free-standing, but for me, it made a widely-arching shrub. And because of its vicious thorns, it quickly became a menace.

I'm thinking, it might work best with a "corral" or what Dr. Tommy Cairns called a "girdle."

Jackie . . . I thought you might like something to give you the idea of a "corral" or "girdle". This is "Vina Banksia" (perhaps 'Purezza') in the Sacramento City Cemetery.

Underneath, there is a neat "corral" going all the way around the plant, which spills over it.

Jeri - thanks for the idea! What is the corral made of? I am guessing it looks like some sort of fence around the rose?

Jackie

I made similar corrals years ago. It was suggested to use PVC (DON'T) to make it "easier". PVC, even UV resistant products, break down with exposure to UV and heat. Iron water pipe is the most "permanent". Wood might last a decent amount of time....until it rots or is infested with termites. Rebar would require welding, but good, old iron water pipe can be purchased in the lengths desired and assembled with the threaded couplers available at many big box and plumbing supply outlets. While not "pretty", any rose worth creating one for would quickly slip cover it, never to be seen again!

Thanks, roseseek! I will save this idea until my retired contractor DH is finished building (&painting) the lovely metal fence (with 2 decorative gates) around my new 500 sq ft rose garden (hee, hee), but I am sure that if I wait a few weeks after that he will have no trouble building me a corral.

Jackie

I agree with Kim on the water galvanized water pipe. That would be just the ticket.

John, I think that's why I love you.

"That which we call a rose, by any other name would...still be Colonial White", lol.

(Apologies to the Bard).