I was referring to the NEC. The area behind a range, sink, or cooktop doesn't count in the linear wall space that has the 24" rule.

In no situation would having three sides of trim and one side not having trim ever look good. I don’t think that that’s what you (op) meant, correct? Just clarifying

Take a look at Sillite. We used one in the side of our island.

http://www.sillites.com/remodel.php

Anyone know anything about sillites?

eta - @wilson853, I didn't catch your post until after I posted a question about Sillite. I am very interested in this idea.

@J D, correct. The GC was suggesting the outlets either in the trim or in the back splash under the window [or on the counter]. But there is no room for back splash and trim. So it would have to be one or the other. Because all the other windows in the house have trim, I think the kitchen windows need to have trim as well. So that eliminates the back splash idea.

@Ron Natalie, re: your comment about the boxes coming out 1/4" of the finished surface - does that mean the outlets can't be flush with the trim? Do you know if I can use sillite in the window trim?

@J D, I did find this - trim on 3 sides of the window and granite back splash and window sill.

That looks nice. The granite is essentially acting as the stool and apron (the fourth side of the trim) because the trim dies into the granite. If you have a piece on your window sill that your trim can die into (a stool), that could work. You would then forgo the apron, tho. I've attached a pic where I show what I mean (the stool doesn't have to be wood, could be your countertop material even). The red X shows that you wouldn't have the apron part

Like the last pic you posted with the 4" backsplash over the sink matching the countertop and outlets in the backsplash. Would either go with that or just put an outlet immediately beside the window on each side. In fact, you should at least consider making all your backsplash like that -- 4" matching the countertop -- and make all your outlets like that. Your outlets near the kitchen sink (and bathroom sink) will need to be GFCI outlets made for close to a water source.

https://www.lph.biz/blog/2017/06/what-are-gfci-outlets-and-where-should-they-be-i/

• @Ron Natalie, re: your comment about the boxes coming out 1/4" of the finished surface - does that mean the outlets can't be flush with the trim? Do you know if I can use sillite in the window trim?Like
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No, I mean the boxes can't sit recessed from the surface. They can be set no FURTHER back than 1/4". You can set them flush (preferable) or even have them stick out (why you would do that I have no idea) if you want.

The only reason I mentioned it is that it's a common DIY mistake to set the box flush with the stud or the drywall and then add tile or trim or whatever that brings things out more than he allowed 1/4"

I had the same situation a few years ago and went with a Sillite to meet code. They come with snap-in covers you can paint to match your window trim. Very unobtrusive. We also put one in the side of our island — again, no one ever saw it. Those things are the bomb, and not expensive. Really underutilized little gems.

Thank for the image @J D. This discussion has been very helpful.

@suezbell, if I could have an outlet beside the windows, I would definitely go that route but because the windows are so large and close to the counter top, the receptacles have to be put in the small space between the counter and the window.

@Ron Natalie, oh okay good. I thought you were saying they would have to stick out and couldn't be flush. Thanks for explaining.

@MizLizzie, thank you for chiming in about the Sillites! I definitely want to mention these to the GC and electrician. If these can go under the windows, I think this would be my preference unless someone knows a reason they aren't a good idea.

Do you want outlets there? To solve this identical problem, I built a temporary plywood box, 4" high, that spanned the window from end to end, and put two 20 amp receptacles in it, wired through the ends into the adjacent outlets in the wall. Once I received a final electrical inspection, I removed the box and outlets, and pulled the wire out.

I rather like seabornman’s idea. 😁 That said, as awkwardly places as my Sillite was — the pic of my kitchen there makes it pretty obvious — I did on several ocasions pop that cover off and use it. So in the end, I was glad to have it.

@Seabornman, I like your idea. I just checked the space out and it doesn't look like they plan to put an outlet anywhere on the left hand side of the window. See photo below. I feel like there should be a receptacle on the left wall (counter) in that corner but there isn't. But since there isn't, I will want an outlet.

@MizLizzie, That's kind of what I'm thinking. My husband asked why we even need outlets there at all. Why is this a code thing? We may not want it but I imagine there will be a time when we'll be glad we had them.

Our small plug-in appliances are going on the right wall next to the fridge area. Not sure we will plug anything in the area over the dishwasher.

It's a code thing. Within 24" of a sink.

@Seabornman, yes but why is it a code thing? I understand not allowing outlets within 24" of a sink but why does code require that they be at the 24" mark at all?

Guessing some bureaucrat wanted to feel important and that was the rule they thought of that day?

You might find out if you can have those "required" outlets installed in the cabinet frame below the sink within that 24" of the sink?

@suezbell, I asked about outlets in the cabinet and that was a "no".

Can't you put the outlets to the left and to the right of the windows, above the countertop?

@mtvhike, I wish I could but not according to code. The window is too big (90" x 48").

@User, ah okay that makes sense. I appreciate the explanation.

You can always install the outlets below the window (doesn’t really matter how) and then remove after inspection and add your nice trim then. We had a similar problem with code requiring them every 24” (ridiculous code requiring outlets near a large sink). Ours was a triple 9 foot window that went down to the counter so no room below. We had trim in between each window and put our outlets there, but I was seriously considering doing something temporary and removing after inspection. The outlets look Ok but not the most attractive, but i really don’t notice them anymore (only in photos do they seem to stand out). Now….. have I used those outlets in the three years we’ve been in the house…only once for small Christmas wreaths and that’s it. Ridiculous code requiring them where there are large windows and sinks.

We had a similar situation, with a 10' triple window, but because the part of the counter in front of the window is a large sink, we didn't have to put outlets there. Our electrician did anyway (horizontal orientation just fitting below the window), but we never use them. We did have 4-plex outlets placed behind the counter on either side of the sink.

@User, That's not a bad idea!

@mtvhike, how big is your sink?

I'm asking our GC and the electrician tomorrow if they've ever heard of Sillite and if it's an option. If anyone has Sillite input, I'm all ears.

I had the same issue, chose to move the outlets to the outside of the window molding. I don‘t even use the one on the left side of the window. Yes its not super close to the sink but it hasn’t been a problem at all.

Lianne, our sink is 36" wide, centered under the window (my wife loves to look out the window while working at the sink).

Our electrician wasn't aware of Sillite. I didn't want a double outlet in the larger panel below so called around and found a distributor that had them in stock.

@wilson853, thanks for sharing the pictures of what you have. It looks really nice!

@mtvhike, with a 10' window, I bet it's an amazing view!

Love the Sillite idea. Never heard of them before. I am wondering if code will require that they be on the wall. At least where I live that would be true (SF). Anyways, still solves your problem no matter what! Very cool

@J D, I'd be okay with them in the window trim since it is small and I think it comes with a cover. I just don't know about GFI - if we need it, and if we do, if Sillites fit that bill.

Oh they don’t make gfci versions??? Even with a waterproof cover that wouldn’t be allowed where I live near a sink. Just check w your contractor because I only know my areas code

"The Sillites® SCR can also be wired to a GFI outlet or breaker, just like a standard receptacle, to become a GFI protected outlet." Taken from their website. I'd still ask your contractor and building inspector...

Regarding the Sillite, ask the building inspector as they may not approve it:

- self contained junction box, however it will be cored into a 2x4 sill plate and the romex will enter from beyond the back of the Sillite (Sillite is 2 1/8" deep)

- may not want the interruption of the sill plate without extra studs below each side of Sillite

A couple other things reading and looking at your photos:

- the drawings show windows at 42" high, including casing and a backsplash - so the windows were ordered larger at 48" causing this conflict?

- with the raised ceiling the gable wall top plate looks to be acting as a hinge point.

- the sink vent will surpass the drilling hole size allowed in a 2x4 exterior bearing stud if it is run through the wall under the window over to the side.

- double check the plumbers rough-ins that the waste line and water supply fits inside the 36" sink cabinet. Eye test looks like both are very close to the sink cabinet sides.

@3onthetree, Thanks for your response. I'm practically going to cut and paste your comments about Sillite and show them to the electrician.

Wow, nice catch about the drawing showing 42" high and the actual windows being ordered are 48". I never noticed the height on the diagram. The KD arbitrarily threw large windows in the layout at my request. I remembered the KD telling me how wide the windows were. I assumed standard window heights were 48". So those are the measurements I gave the GC when he asked me for sizes. I'm guessing the GC knew the KD she was just throwing in windows for me and not actually planning window placement - though I was definitely using it as my guide (blue print) which explains a separate snafu we had.

Regarding the top plate acting as a hinge point...is that bad? I don't know what that means but I'm curious now.

I'll copy and paste the sink vent comment and show it to the GC as I don't know what that means either but sounds and though it needs to be brought to his attention?

I mentioned your last comment to the plumber and he said he liked to have space in the center for magnetic faucets hoses. We weren't in the space at the time of our chat. I'll measure it today and see if I can tell if it's too wide.

I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

So with the windows, usually they have to be ordered many weeks in advance for lead time. Who did the ordering then, the Kitchen Designer? Has it been already ordered? Did the framer just rough-in a 48" height based on your verbal, and were you aware whether that 48" is actually the rough-in dimension, or is it the frame size, or the glazing size?

Here is the Sillite with a Section drawing of your situation, the Sillite turned horizontally within the double top plate. There is a 1 3/4" to 2" bore hole, then the 2 1/8" Sillite depth, plus another depth required for the Romex to turn and enter the back of the Sillite box.

Here is the gable end top plate hinge. This can be alleviated by full height studs through the top plate, and framing above the ceiling to tie the gable to the ceiling diaphragm.

Here is the bore hole limitations in an exterior bearing wall, regarding the plumbing vent if in-wall.

@3onthetree, the GC ordered the windows. I selected the sized based on her drawing. She put them in the cabinet layout and I liked the way it looked and asked her for the size (90" by what I thought was 48") so that's what I told the contractor. Below is what the contractor ordered. I don't know to answer your questions - does it look like i'm getting rough in size or is it the size with the frame? Can you tell? You are super thorough. Are you a builder? Contractor?

Does this picture help you see what's happening with the plumbing?

Thank you for the SIllite information. I will share that with the electrician.

Regarding the gable, do you recommend I bring it up to our gc?

The window order looks fine, rough-ins set at 48" (though they did have a clerical error, there should be (2) quantity of the double hungs flanking the picture window but I think it's just a typo on the form).

You must be in like San Diego. Your footings are brick, on edge, and not grouted solid. Hmmm, the things you see in forums.

@3onthetree, east coast actually. The inspector wasn't too keen about that brick, and failed the inspection stating the brick couldn't carry the load and in order for it to pass the gc needed to provide an engineer letter. Which he got.

In counter NOT in window frame or below !

We did ours sideways. Not something I notice much now.

@Studio NOO Design, what does it look like in the counter? I've read you can't have outlets face up on the counter.

@MR, yeah, I think it looks fine. I think it will be something we won't notice eventually.

We ran into the same issue, our electrician turned them horizontal.

Liane there’s brands like mocket that make counter outlets and some make gfic counter outlets too. I just thought you were against the idea is why I didn’t mention it. Anyways, they pop up out of the counter so they aren’t just exposed sitting upwards. On another note, I assumed if you put the outlet on the wall you’d be doing them sideways...I should’ve been more specific and clarified that I think sideways would be best. It just doesn’t look like they will totally fit even sideways, correct?

Your space is beautiful AP.

@J D, just looked up mockets and remembered the cost is why I'm not really considering them. I need 4 and it seems pretty expensive. I think it's going to be super tight to fit the receptacle in horizontally which is why I'm hoping we can go with the Sillites. Can those 2x4 be cut into to fit outlet boxes?

@MizLizzie Is your sillite mounted on tile? I thought they could only be placed in wood but I would love the option of having one on my backsplash instead of a full-sized outlet. Sorry to hijack your post O.P.

Yes, it was in tile. That one was white, but I painted the snap-on cover to match the tile. I had a second one in the side of my island, matched to the wood (That’s my old kitchen in a house we sold a few years ago.)

we have a similar situation, except that the counter goes all the way to the frame of the window (no wall backing). wouldn't it be considered a peninsula, which then would need one single recepticle on the wall?

Turns out they realized they could turn the outlets horizontally and cut into the framing to make it fit

This how we satisfied outlet code requirements when we built in 2021.

For outlet needed in the island. No one ever notices this outlet as it faces the sink wall, so not seen from anywhere else in the kitchen or family room.

Outlets near sink. We have wide mulls between our triple windows, due to hurricane code. They were able to place an outlet in the trim covering each mull.