@portlandmysteryrose is there a rose with great fragrance that you'd recommend instead? I was waffling between Yolande d'Aragon and Baronne Prevost, but slightly preferred Yolande's bloom form. I WAS planning on putting Yolande against a fence with a grid support against it, so I could train it if need be.

I can’t remember where I saw/read it but if no one else can support that thought then clearly I was mistaken….and should get it to grow in place of Heritage (getting moved to the peach bed)

@portlandmysteryrose I hear a lot of good stuff about Marchesa Bocella but I don't think I'd buy it unless I eventually got rid of my Sidonie because the blooms look almost exactly the same to me and the fragrance sounds equally delicious.

Sidonie.

It gets the same button eye and all. Fragrance is very good to my nose. Maybe a tad darker color.

Magpie, GORGEOUS Sidonie!! Sidonie is a wonderful rose, and as you said, similar to JC/MB in character. Why not give Yolande d’Aragon a try since you have a place at the back of the bed by the fence? Her color is a deeper mellow raspberry with watercolor highlights, her blooms are sumptuous and her fragrance is outstanding! (She looks smashing with Maiden’s Blush!) YdA is pretty darn healthy in my experience, and in time, you should get a few bonus blooms. Honestly, if I hadn’t grown her in my past, I’d be growing her now. She’s a rose that every OGR lover with a bit of garden space should grow at least once in a lifetime. I think the former owner of Heirloom, Louise Clements, said this was one of her favorite roses. If you choose YdA, I’d LOVE to see photos! Sometimes I drift over to HMF just to gaze at her. If only I could smell her! :-)

Oursteelers, allow me to enable. Yolande yes! You and Magpie could compare blooms, and I could reap the benefits when you both post photos. Not that I’m thinking of myself, of course….

Carol

Magpie, have you looked into Reine des Violettes? Carol

@portlandmysteryrose I've checked it out on HMF a few times, but I'm not really in love with the photos. This is just me being super nitpicky but I don't really love the white highlights in the center paired with the deeper color of the rest of the bloom. Though I think I tend to have a better opinion of blooms after seeing them in person than I do from pictures, so who knows, maybe I'll see one in real life one day and change my mind!

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) All three of those are winners - you could easily choose any one of them and be happy with the outcome. However, I personally favor 'Konigen von Danemark' for two reasons: it blooms the longest of any OGR I have, and it is by far the most generous with volume of bloom. It often has flowers on it 2 weeks after all the other OGRs are done.

But none of those three options is a poor choice.

If size is an issue - 'Great Maiden's Blush' matures at about 6 x 6 feet, 'Konigen von Danemark' is a bit wider at 8 feet wide and 6-7 feet tall, and 'Chloris' ends up much taller at 8 feet tall and a bit wider.

@User Would they reach those proportions even in my zone? I guess I wouldn't be surprised, considering how big Mme. Plantier got in her first year, and the hardiness of albas.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) Yes, i would think so.

@User HMF says that KvD is a seedling of GMB. Do you find that either of these roses produce decent amounts of fertile hips? Are they able to be crossed with other classes?

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b) in my experience, neither produces hips with fertile seeds, but i gather ‘Great Maiden’s Blush’ does occasionally. There’s no proof that ’Konigen von Danemark’ is descended from ’Great Maidens Blush’. Many references suggest it is an Alba/Damask hybrid, which seems very likely to me. Albas are mostly Octoploids and Hexaploids and are notoriously difficult to breed with.

Oh gosh, Burlington has Felicite Parmentier in stock. What do I dooooooooo I only have room for max 2, and that's already pushing it.

Magpie, I just stumbled over an internet photo that might be useful to you. If you Google ”Organic Garden Dreams March Roses,” you‘ll see some pics of YdA including a full plant shot against a fence. This photo really captures the habit of YdA. Yes, your post triggered my indulgent Googling of YdA pics. Gads, she’s gorgeous! Carol

FP….d@m!

FP doesn’t take wetness as well as M Blush and Konigen if that helps. Mine is under an eave.

@portlandmysteryrose okay, so definitely not the best bush shape. Hmmmm.

What I did with my YdA: I let the back grow taller and gently bent and tied the canes along the fence. I pruned the front shorter and let canes flower on the ends of canes. If I can find a pic, I’ll attach it.

@portlandmysteryrose Oh no, now I'm rethinking my HP's! That bush shot... eh... I do have a fence to put it against, but very VERY limited room in front of it to hide ugly legs. My garden is a big "L" shape, and is narrow, so I don't really have a "back of the border" as all borders are shallow.

You can also just prune YdA into a vase-shaped shrub (like Perpetua and Jerome on HMF Roses). In general, HPs and Portland Damasks lean toward bare legs. So do Hybrid Teas for that matter. I add hardy geraniums to fluff around the bases of roses. Roxanne, vigorous Wargrave Pink, Patricia are all great! Do you want to post a sketch of your bed for forum input on the spots where in intend to plant roses?

I found these pics. They are total ”in progress”garden photos, but they do contain a fence and geraniums and will have a Maiden’s Blush. I recently removed shrubs and will be moving Maiden’s Blush and two purple Clematis viticellas to the fence (MB in center and splayed across the top and tumbling down as she does). I will be planting Orpheline de Juillet and, I think eventually, Umbra in this bed. As you can see Wargrave Pink geranium fills the bed, and you can see how it has spread to fill the area. It will easily cover any bare rose canes.

My garden is tiny inner urban and my beds are narrow. Fencing between the backyard beds and my itty bitty back “lawn“ (mix of grass, clover, violets, dandelions, etc.) keeps my rough collie out of my beds.

Here is a photo of the available spot (very early in the season before it grew in, don't judge based off this photo lol). Henri F is already planted in that corner as of last week, I want to plant climbers along the rest of the fence (not pictured here but it is a long fence and this is the thickest part of the border). So behind that bird bath is an available spot where I could put one decently sized rose. It gets morning and afternoon sun, shade from about 3-4pm on.

Here's another photo that gives a little idea of how narrow the space is, so any rose against that fence only has a few feet to bush outwards, but mostly needs to stay hugging the fence. I will move the birdbath back a bit (or somewhere else, we'll see) and put a walkway through the center of this area so I can access it better (it's a bit of a jungle right now). There is a sprinkler in the far left corner so nothing tall can go in front of it, only lower growing plants.

The spot for "another rose" and the spot for "climbing rose" could also be switched to give a bushier rose a tad more space to bush out without encroaching onto a walkway. But just a tad 🙃

Oops, my point being mainly that there really isn't much room at all for a leggy mess. All my borders are narrow because of the shape of my yard. I don't mind once bloomers or fall repeat bloomers just being a leafy shrub the rest of the season, but they do need to be good looking leafy shrubs. I'm open to getting a different rose if something else will be a better fit, I haven't purchased YdA or Enfant dr France yet for that matter. Definitely wondering if I should avoid HPs now 🙃 I'm open to your sage advice.

Magpie, first I just have to say that your herb garden planting and birdbath are lovely! I see you have a young gardener-in-training. :-)

I think your idea of swapping the climber and shrub might be a good one. If you like Maiden’s blush, you could grow it on the fence behind the birdbath as a climber/wall shrub. That would leave room for the walk in front. MB’s foliage is a beautiful blue-green and serrated and her blush to white blooms would look charming behind the medium pink confection that is HF. Then the question is: How much ground space do you have for rose #3 on the left? You could do a smaller climber/wall shrub or you could do a shrub. Some ideas: 1) Konigen von D (can climb a bit and become a wall shrub). 2) Another Gallica—Ellen Tofflemire is a darker color and a kaleidoscope of fragrant loveliness if you can get ahold of her or Palatine says it will be stocking Camaieux in Dec. 3) Portland Damask Rose de Rescht. 4) Damask Leda (Palatine Dec.). 5) Mossy Salet. 6) Or? Carol

@portlandmysteryrose Yes, my youngest 😊 her favorite gardening activities include harvesting tomatoes + green beans, and cracking open dried Nigella seed pods and planting the seeds eeeeeverywhere lol.

So, here's a photo of some more length of the fence, plus where I'm moving the border out to, but now that I look at it it's actually a smaller space width-wise. I'd love to get Ellen Tofflemire but it never seems to be available. I asked Paul what varieties he was offering directly next spring but that wasn't one of them 😔

I wasn't sure how much sun an Alba would like here. The spot in the bird bath garden is for sure full sun. I thought they might need some shade because it gets so hot and dry here by June. Thoughts on sun and heat? My earliest blooming rose this year bloomed on June 5 and it got into the 90's shortly after. What would an alba make of that that in full afternoon sun, do you think? This is where I was originally thinking, two shady spots (5-6) hours of morning and dappled afternoon sun at most. I would definitely like to get GMB and KvD and have room for both. In progress photo, please excuse the mess 🙃

I’m just checking the hardiness of something. I’ll sit down with a cup of tea and my iPad to write back shortly. Carol

Okay, I’m back. :-)

Those are super helpful pics and notes. Thank you! Ha, ha. I love that your youngest is the Nigella seed fairy! I should invite her to my garden. I adore those magical blue flowers…wherever they appear! My (10-year-old) daughter still likes to make “magic potions” in the birdbath by tossing rose petals into the bowl. Fluttering visitors drink and bathe in rosewater like a fine hotel. I am the maid service who cleans out the sludgy stew every couple of days when I replenish the water.

Albas: Yes, perfect. I think you should go with your original two partial shade placements. (I didn’t realize you had a second location for roses other than the birdbath bed.) If you like MB and KvD, I’d 100% go with those two, placing MB against the taller fence and KvD against the rail fence. You can train both along their fences and prune the front canes of KvD lower so she makes a fluffy shrub. (Use thorn proof gloves!) I’d grow MB as a climber fanned out along the taller fence and underplant with herbs and perennials. I plan to grow a viticella type clematis through mine. Clematis ‘Etoile Violette’ is very hardy and would look fantastic grown through MB. If you haven’t grown a viticella, know that it is a super easy type. Just wack it off a couple of feet above the soil level every early spring, and it will shoot up and bloom. Our narrow beds have a plus side! We can easily put our noses in our roses as we stroll through our gardens, and with MB and KvD, you will definitely want to stop to smell the roses! Carol

To be continued (birdbath bed)…..

Do you think Rose de Rescht might be a good choice for your sunnier birdbath bed? It’s hardy, VERY fragrant and has scattered blooms off and on when it grows up.

@portlandmysteryrose it's beautiful, I always consider it. But if it really grew 4 feet out into that area, and so did Henri F, I'd never be able to get in there 🙃 I worry that the only roses that might work there are the ones that can be trained against the fence. The whole bed is maybe maybe 8-9 feet wide, minus some room to walk. I might have to settle for a climber there, or something with very flexible canes. Are bourbons typically very flexible? My Mme. Ernest Calvat seems to be extremely bendy, Reine Victoria less so.

Good to know. A climber does sound best. Bourbons vary, as you have observed.

I hope I can give a nice update eventually on that area. Thanks for selling me on those albas, I am very very excited for those to come!!!

Zephirine Drouhin is flexible, thornless and very fragrant! With maturity, she throws out roses off and on all summer and offers a small autumn flush. HMF says hardy to zone 5b.

I think our back yards are about the same size with similarly sized lawn spaces and bed depths. My back garden bed with the birdbath is my deepest, and it’s not much deeper than the first bed I posted. (I am obviously not into lawns. Ha, ha.)

Lawns are overrated lol. Do you have any experience with "Bourbon Queen" aka "Queen of Bourbons"?

No, I haven’t grown that one, but I’ll bet someone in the forum has. You could drop a post to ask. I have grown and really like Honorine de Brabant—healthier than most Bourbons in my area, very fragrant, lovely subtly striped cupped blooms, some remontancy.

And congrats on your Albas!!

Well I haven't gotten them yet 🙃 HCR opens for ordering in late December so hopefully I can get them right away. And I might still try Yolande d'Aragon if it becomes available, I don't know yet. I definitely get overwhelmed with too many options, so it might be better to be brave and try my original plan of YdA just for mental ease.

I think that sounds like a plan! 🤞 that you can purchase all the roses you have on your list. Sheila grows YdA and LOVES her. I loved mine, too. (Your post has made me crave her again.) YdA’s blooms and fragrance are indescribable! If you put her against the fence in the birbath bed to grow her as a wall shrub/semi climber, start training her early. Gently bend her back canes and attach them to that wonderful wire trellising you installed. Keep gently bending and working her back ”climbing canes” like this over time. The mid canes can be kept upright and taller than the also upright front canes. If you keep the front canes the shortest and the others graduated to tallest toward the back, you’ll produce a fuller foliaged plant all the way down the wall and a narrower plant. But start training the back canes early. YdA stiffens quckly as canes mature. (So do the canes of lots of other roses, even Madame Afred Carriere who is truly a climber.) When YdA is old enough, if you give her a trim after bloom, she’ll offer you bonus blooms at a time of year when you’ll appreciate smelling every one. Your Old Rose garden plan is fantastic! HF, MB, KvD, YdA and Eirinnerung an Brod--wow! Carol

@portlandmysteryrose Thank you for the tutorial, I will definitely try to train her right away.

Yes I am excited for the new albas to go in!!!

Mme. Plantier, Erinnerung an Brod, Harison's Yellow, Indigo, Mme. Ernest Calvat, Reine Victoria, Ispahan, and High Country Banshee will all be 2nd year plants next spring so I realllllllly hope to see some blooms from them. That would be so exciting for me. Since Henri F went in the ground so late idk if it will bloom next year. I got some blooms from Sidonie this year (1st year) but hardly any. That is the extent of my old rose collection so far.

Magpie, that is a fantastic OGR collection!!! As I said before, you have GREAT taste in roses. I am so excited to watch your garden unfold! If HCR (a wonderful nursery) runs out and you are interested in ordering from Palatine, you might check out what it is offering in early December, too. I think it plans to sell a few roses on your list. The plants I’ve purchased from Palatine have always been top notch.

OT: What area of CO do you live in? (If this is too personal, ignore this paragraph.) I was just wondering because although I grew up in TX (and then went to grad school in MN), like all Texans at the time ha-ha, our family spent many summer vacations in beautiful CO. My dad was a model railroader, and he drove us into places cars were never intended to travel in search of the remains of old narrow gauge lines and decrepit trestles. But I have to admit, eating picnic breakfasts and lunches by mountain streams and hiking through cathedral-like forests really made a lasting impression. To this day, the Rocky Mountains are one of my favorite places on earth!

Carol

@portlandmysteryrose Hmm, let's just say I live in a small farming town halfway between Denver and Fort Collins 🙃 it's beautiful here in its own right, if you like the prairie look. In fall it's lovely (well, I love this landscape in all seasons) Mostly flat, fields on fields of drying corn and huge hay bales, kissed with frost that sparkles in morning sun. Fall colors touching the leaves, the last of the bright yellow sunflowers alongside all the roads contrasting with a clear blue sky, the Rocky Mountain range clear in the distance with snowy peaks. Geese everywhere right now lol. Bald eagles and osprey are a common sight, red tailed hawks are often found on the telephone poles, American Kestrels prefer to perch on the giant rolling sprinklers in the fields. The coyotes yip at night, fox tracks are a treasure to find in fresh snow. And of course the unavoidable rush of the occasional summer storm, lightning striking the ground nearby shaking your house, winds testing your nerves as they blow impossibly fast, slamming hailstones against your house in a deafening cacophony.

I'd never even seen this type of landscape before moving here, I know a lot of people find it boring and consider places like this "flyover areas" but I fell in love with it unexpectedly. I have been here for a few years and have not gone a single day without thinking the mountain silhouette was priceless.

Magpie, what a beautiful description! I can picture it perfectly.

@oursteelers 8B PNW Thank you. There's a lot to love about this landscape. I do travel to the mountains and foothills often to hike, and that landscape is incredible in a different way. Your view down the path is always obscured by boulders and trees, so walking through it is very mysterious, you truly never know what you'll run into around the next bend (ahem, bear). I find myself drawn to the mountains when I need to "find" something, iykwim. But I love the quiet, wide open space of my home.

That sounds so beautiful, Magpie! Your description is poetry. I’ve likely driven through your area from some direction. I’ve been to both Denver and Fort Collins (and everywhere else in CO I could manage to travel to). Your view of the Rockies sounds delightful! I love looking out and seeing snowy mountains in the distance. Mt. Hood and the Cascades are in my backdrop. Your prairie sounds like a wonderful place to live. I envy all your backyard wildlife! Pure magic. And I envy your snowy weather, too. That was something I loved about living in MN. In Portland, we sometimes get a good snow, but often we just get a dusting, or we get power outage nightmare ice…like last winter. Ugh. But my Gallicas and other OGRs crave the chill time, and they shake off our Icemageddons. Tough beauties! Carol

@portlandmysteryrose When I finally got to purchase roses the other day, KvD and Chloris were both unavailable! So I got GMB, and I'm so happy! You totally sold me on it, so I will think of you when I see it, and your incredible photos, passion for roses, and kindness. I hope you're doing well.

@Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)

Congratulations!! I hope you enjoy MB as much as I do. I just moved mine to a trellis on my west fence and have planted Clematis viticella near her feet. I can hardly wait to compare notes with you! My apologies for the delayed reply. Our internet has been mostly down since November and still isn’t fixed, but I am sneaking online in between outages. Carol

@portlandmysteryrose I'm sorry you're dealing with no internet! That sucks. I have a clematis "Ilka" planted near where my MB is going to go, though not near enough to intertwine, I think. I was scared to plant them too close 😅

@portlandmysteryrose Picked up GMB today! 🙃 thinking of you, hope your internet is fixed! How is your weather and are your roses coming along or are they still asleep?

Congratulations , @Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)! Maiden’s Blush!! I am soooo happy dancing with you. 💃🏻 What a healthy baby, too. If you allow it to produce an ID bloom (which it likely will), don’t forget to sniff. Yum!

My MB survived its cut-back and move to the center of my back garden fence. It will take a year for poor, hacked MB to really flush out in bloom again, but maybe I’ll get a few powder pink surprises. 🤞

Carol