The lack of planning was evident from the outlet, but yikes that sag.

The consumer could be at fault here too. Somebody who knew what they were doing and charged accordingly was beat out by low bidder. Frames aren't cheap.

That cant be on the consumer… is t that what consumer hire professionals to do? regardless of price, if it was $5 or $20,000 are they -the professionals- not responsible? The professional installer/fabricator is responsible in this case right? and they should be held responsible for rectifying it right?

Also, what is it abou the outlet that is bad planning- shoukd it be closer to the side so they can reach, or is it because of aesthetics and to have a stone cutout/hidden outket there?

Joseph, you and I are far apart, I suspect, politically, but I really admire your professional expertise. If you were in my area, you'd be first on my list to call.

They’re gonna have a dented fridge too. Flippers are gonna flip with the cheapest possible way to do it. After all, it only has to Look good through a couple of showings. It doesn’t actually have to Be good.

"They’re gonna have a dented fridge too."

You are correct and vindicated by the dent in the left fridge door as shown in the 2nd picture.

"That cant be on the consumer… isn't that what consumer hire professionals to do? regardless of price, if it was $5 or $20,000 are they -the professionals- not responsible?"

People have been coached into the always-get-3-bids cult. It doesn't always serve them well, especially when they're searching through their remodeling budget to find an extra grand for window treatments. Two seemingly similar countertop contractors are bidding the job. One insists on an extra thousand for support that can't be seen, the other insists such support isn't necessary and points to the manufacturer's instructions. People want to believe what they want to believe and that's not the contractor's fault. And if this is new construction, there isn't a builder in the country that has an extra thousand dollars for something that can't be seen. It only has to not crack until the closing.

I left the historic preservation business which I loved because I couln't get customers to pay what it took to do their restorations right. Same with stair building and handrailing. Now I pick up after the guys they hired.

The good news is the crack is providing enough strain relief to prevent the miters at the waterfalls from self-destructing. Sorry, can't find the pic. They're gonna go though eventually.

Thanks for posting this!! Customers argue all the time about these kinds of things. I have created a folder to show them pictures of " problems" .

The ref was a bonus!!

Debbi:

You're welcome. I think we learn more from the mistakes than the successes.

The potential customer that called me was a Realtor. I think he thought I was going to drive to Miami and make this go away in an afternoon before his closing. The seller is going to take a pounding on this one. I'll bet they seek a second opinion.

Ok, let me clarify- if they are licensed. Yes, money talks, but spending more doesnt guarantee you better workman ship or work. I have kearned this the hard way. I have hired severak plumbers and now have stucj with one who is the most reliable and has warranties etc, but by far not the most expensive. Less wxpensive than many I have hired that dont get proper permits etc. As a consumer we hire someone who is licensed and insured & look at reviews, but that doesn’t always work out either. Often people can charge less if they have a good deal with a stone yard or are effiecent/large business or make seems. As a consumer, if we are not told in the first place by any installer about adding support, how should we be responsible for that?

"As a consumer, if we are not told in the first place by any installer about adding support, how should we be responsible for that?"

I'll repeat myself. Fabricator A proposes the proper support, insists that it it is necessary, won't take the job without it, and charges $1,000.00 more. Fabricator B insists it is not needed and is $1,000.00 less.

The customer really, really, wants to believe Fabricator B, because she's looking for another thousand dollars to get the window treatment she wants. She goes with Fabricator B, gets her window treatments, and a self-destructing island. She was told. Any fabricator who didn't know or care or say anything is incompetent.

M Miller:

Dude, you need to chill. I haven't blamed anyone. When you're diagnosing failures, you have an obligation to ask "Who is possibly at fault here?" I've learned this after years of experience and as a warranty agent for manufacturers.

I've given the technical reasons for the failure and the poor prospects of a repair. I would be remiss if I didn't look at the possibility of the homeowner contribution.

Following your "reasoning" the next time there's hot pot damage on a countertop, I'll have to blame the manufacturer or fabricator/installer for not supervising the preparation of dinner.

Reading this thread, the blame is repeatedly on the homeowner for things. Joseph Corlett's analogy about hot pot damage does not fit. From this thread:

1. "The consumer could be at fault here too. Somebody who knew what they were doing and charged accordingly was beat out by low bidder." Were you told that by the homeowner?

2. "People choose the cheapest least qualified person all the time. With zero license, industry training or qualifications." How do you know that is what happened to this kitchen?

3. "One insists on an extra thousand for support that can't be seen, the other insists such support isn't necessary and points to the manufacturer's instructions. People want to believe what they want to believe". Is that what happened with this homeowner?

4. "Customers argue all the time about these kinds of things." Is what happened to this homeowner? Perhaps they picked a reputable and expensive contractor (what you always say to choose - right?), and trusted in them.

Another issue in the "blame game" - the "Pros" here berate homeowners who question their contractor. So if the homeowner in this post questioned the contractor over the counter support, the "Pros" always say to mind your own Ps & Qs and not try to override the contractor's expertise, right? Doesn't Joseph say that questioning him puts the customer on "secret probation" or something? The homeowner cannot win with the "Pros". Maybe the Pros shouldn't be in a business where they feel this degree of contempt for the public.

I admit I am enjoying the last few disaster posts. I could post a few that I gave done myself. But that would be too embarrassing 🤓

There is a lot of faulty, and rather self-serving, logic in this thread.

The idea that a consumer is to blame for a fabricator's incompetence is laughable. A consumer is never to blame for the negligence of the fabricator. Never... Customer's should do some due diligence in order to avoid problems, but that doesn't mean they are at fault when that due diligence fails. This is just blaming the victim. This is like saying someone deserves to have their car stolen because they left it where someone could steal it.

Next, railing against the three bid system ignores facts and history. The low bid rarely wins the contract in non-government projects. Actually, the highest bidder is statistically more likely to win than the low bidder. Furthermore, think about all the times consumers benefited from lack of competition, in things like pricing, innovation, quality, etc.

That didn't take long did it. Because there is a rich history of the consumer paying for lack of competition in many ways and almost no history of the consumer benefiting from lack of competition. Even the threat of a three bid system is a guard against the profiteering that would absolutely happen if everyone just trusted the first "reputable" person they talked to.

Then there is this idea of the customer being responsible because a fabricator told them the supports were not necessary and pretending "they wanted to hear that." Did you purchase the $3,500 paint protection package from the car dealer? The fact of the matter is, that consumers are regularly upsold worthless upgrades as absolutely necessary and you can hardly blaming them for listening to one fabricator who says the other fabricator is just upselling them.

In the end, customers can't reasonably evaluate the quality of different contractors. I know someone who bought a company who had been sued a dozen times for shoddy work. He changed the name, spent money on a great logo and wrapped all the vehicles, made everyone wear snazzy polos and handed the sales people full color presentation materials, he then raised the prices, but has the same people doing the same quality work they were before, but now it comes wrapped in a pretty package for more money and consumers are fooled. It isn't really their fault, it is just hard to evaluate the quality of the work rather than the quality of the overall experience.

"So if the homeowner in this post questioned the contractor over the counter support, the "Pros" always say to mind your own Ps & Qs and not try to override the contractor's expertise, right? Doesn't Joseph say that questioning him puts the customer on "secret probation" or something?"

M Miller:

I do not allow customers to override my expertise. If my proposal to you required more expensive supports and you asked me to eliminate them for a price reduction, I would decline your project. My expertise is not up for negotiation, although I would feel some regret that my sales skills failed you.

You really have to work to get me to put you on "double secret probation" (I stole that from the movie Animal House). It is essential to pick the right customers if you're going to be successful in business; fortunately the people you don't want as customers usually give themselves away early on. Knowing when to say "No." to customers is essential also.

I run into something similar with the failed reinforcement rod repairs I do regularly. I warn my potentials that if they search, they will find a Craigslister offering to do a "repair" for about 1/5 of what I charge. My repairs are permanent; theirs are not. You can have the guy who writes the magazine articles or you can have the guy who reads them, then ignores what he's read. Again, I regret my inability to convince some of these potentials of the value of my services.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC - let's flip the script though... what if you tell a customer that a support isn't needed and another contractor says it is. Given the logic in this thread the customer should ignore you as a hack and pay the "better" contractor to properly install supports.

This whole thread is predicated on the idea that the customer made a poor choice in order to save money, but given that criteria any advice to spend more money would be the better advice. This is especially notable in this thread as you often advise posters to avoid seeing an attorney or engineer as they are wasted money.

There was nothing low budget in our project and when I told the counter installer that I wanted my sinks strapped, he wasn't happy but finally agreed ... just like Joe recommends and I even ordered the straps Joe has linked before. When it came time for installation the counter installer pretended with the straps laying around and went ahead and installed all the sinks with clips. He also gave my kitchen sinks negative reveals when I clearly told him that the Julien specs said they needed a positive reveal. My sink accessories don't fit. He then offered to grind/expand the sink holes on site ... at that point I just wanted him out of the house. My builder would have backed whatever I decided, but I just wanted the counter guy out.

If he'd said he wanted more money to do straps I would have paid it. He just felt he knew better and wasn't going to listen to what some customer asked for. The old "we've been doing it this way for 20 years" bullsh*t!

Maybe I'll be calling Joe in a few years to make repairs, but it certainly won't be because of anything I, the customer, did wrong!

@chispa wait!!! What do u mean u wanted ur sinks strapped? I have never heard of this. I am geniunely curious, because in my last kitchen (new build) my Franke sink collapsed into the cabinet. My cleaning lady freaked out I had never seen or heard of anything like that happening before

@chispa, this is exactly what happened in my new construction. We ordered the straps and asked counter guys to install it. On the day of installation of course they forgot to do it but my husband was on site, caught it on time so they were able to install it before it was too late. If not my husband being right there and watching what they are doing, they would not do it. I think they just forgot because they usually don't do that but still. We had the whole conversation before installation how we want our sink attached and like you I only knew it thanks to Joseph Corlett mentioning this on Houzz many times.

Geez, Joseph passed the blame around:

Joe said: "You are the victim of catastrophic designer/fabricator/installer error."

Later, he added another plausible scenario: "The consumer could be at fault here too. Somebody who knew what they were doing and charged accordingly was beat out by low bidder."

You just can't say that cheap assed consumers and sketchy fabricators don't exist.

@Blair, installers usually attach sinks by drilling these little metal clamps into the base of your stone/quartz and then tighten them up onto the lip of the sink to hold it in place.

The straps fit over the cabinet frames and are then tightened, like a seat belt, around the bowl of the sink. So your sink is supported by the cabinet frames and not just a clip screwed into the stone/quartz.

If you search for Joe's name and sink straps, you should be able to see some of the threads where he shows how it works.

@chispa Can it be done after install or is it a one shot deal? I wish I would have known

Straps can be retrofitted.

"This whole thread is predicated on the idea that the customer made a poor choice in order to save money, but given that criteria any advice to spend more money would be the better advice. This is especially notable in this thread as you often advise posters to avoid seeing an attorney or engineer as they are wasted money."

bry911:

I've seen customers make poor choices motivated by an attempt to save money. It happens; you can deny it all you please. Of course spending more money isn't always the best either.

I advise posters to spend their money wisely. When your post shows you have obvious mental health issues and you think your problems will be solved by an engineer and a lawyer, I'm going to tell you that you need a therapist.

When posters are contemplating removing a load bearing wall, I always suggest hiring a general contractor or framer first because if they do need an engineer, they will have one on speed dial. Jumping to an engineer first can be a waste of money. I've seen this several times.

Too many readers and responders have too little experience with the legal system and foolishly think it will provide justice and be fair. It does not and is not all the time. (Although I was delighted that the bakery won its lawsuit against Oberlin college) Racing to an attorney before assessing your position of strength is foolish.

When I suffered heart palpatations years ago, my GP made me quit drinking caffiene. I did not seek a cardiologist; I am unqualified to do so. If your GC thinks you need a lawyer or engineer, he'll make the referral, just like your GP would.

@Joseph Corlett, LLC - Your response didn't counter my point, it actually supports the point I was making.

When I suffered heart palpatations years ago, my GP made me quit drinking caffiene. I did not seek a cardiologist

Had your GP referred you to a cardiologist would you have been knowledgeable enough to not go? Because that is the real point of this thread.

Wow this thread took a big turn.

Thanks for posting the pictures of what can happen and why it happened. It is very helpful.

As for the rest, no one knows what happened with this client - they could have gone cheap, they could be in an area without a lot of options, they could have demanded something and the fabricator caved, there could have been a crack in material no one saw, the designer did not properly advise, the fabricator did not advise when templating was being done..... and on and on.

Posters could be lying about their situation, people pose as pros and give bad info - it's the internet - you take advice so far and do you research.

Please stop fighting with each other - you are all making a contribution in your own way .

Debbi:

bry911 and I aren't fighting; this is how we roll. I always appreciate a constructive comment whether or not I agree.

My GP insisted that I was suffering from the flu and the after effects from having the flu.

Age 57, low cholesterol, low blood pressure, generally healthy, extreme nausea, exhaustion and muscle ache in both arms, negative flu test, had flu vaccine, no fever. Diagnosed and treated for the flu by urgent care, 4 follow up visits with Primary GP, partner GP, Nurse Practitioner, referred to a rheumatologist who diagnosed me with post flu tendonitis and referred to a General Surgeon due to development of a hernia after a bout of severe nausea.

Same night as I saw the rheumatologist, the day before I was scheduled to see the General Surgeon, I called 911 and was taken by ambulance to the hospital. The EMT suggested that I may be suffering a panic attack. On the way to the hospital the EKG went crazy. I suffered a major heart attack in route to the hospital. Had a 99% block of the widow maker. Cardiologist informed me that tests showed that I had suffered multiple silent heart attacks prior to the major event. Had I waited 30 minutes longer to call 911 I would not have survived.

This may have been partially my own fault. . .

I knew the diagnosis was wrong, I had had the flu in the past. I knew the symptoms, but had been taught not to question the experts. Told that I'm not qualified. The doctors explained away my questions telling me that I am older and can suffer symptoms longer and more severely than in the past.

If that little voice in the back of your head says something isn't right you need to question it, need to push for more information, ask for more expert opinions, trust your gut.

There is a known gender bias in the diagnosis of heart attacks leaving women at a greater risk of dying from a heart attack than men.

In both health care and home repair/renovations I take the position that I must be my own advocate.

I wish that I could trust the experts.

You can; you just have to evaluate which ones to trust.

You can; you just have to evaluate which ones to trust.

I don't think you actually can. This is a problem of overinformed and undereducated. Most people simply don't have the knowledge to evaluate the information that is available to them, including the skills of the people they hire. Since we are talking about cardiologists... here is an example.

A cardiologist that I know very well works in an office that had a popular cardiologist. She was the most demanded person in the office and patients loved her. However, her partners in the practice actually had to review all her patient records and regularly had to adjust medications she prescribed or change orders.

Patients loved her because she appeared to take them seriously, and she was constantly sending patients for cardio workups. However, in reality there was no reason for many of these tests and often insurance wouldn't pay, which just made the patients mad at their insurance. Her partners forced her to retire.

This isn't really a story about cardiologists, it is a story about the ability of the average consumer to actually evaluate the information they have. Too often reviews are less about the quality of the work and more about the quality of the experience. We consistently see posts here of substandard work from contractors that came highly recommended and well reviewed. Often those posters note that their contractor is a great person who they trust.