Bugbane.

This is a challenging area for me.

This is what I had before:

I had posted a thread on here and asked for suggestions on a 3' tall evergreen shrub to go on the right near the house, but nothing was really suggested because of the shallow roots of the tulip magnolia.

And boy, were you all right!! Those roots are just barely under the surface!

When I realized that I was going to have to move the blue hosta, though, and that it was about 2' tall anyway, I thought it might be a decent alternative to a shrub. It's not evergreen, of course, but it's something.

So that's what led me to putting them in this specific area, anyway.

A second challenge is that the garden goes from shade to sun almost immediately. In the pic in this pot, you can see a line of 4 hostas following the pathway; the two closest to the house were fine, but the two farther down the path were cooked! So the shade is mostly between the shepherd's hook and the house, and then there's no real transition before you have this line where it turns in to full sun.

So with that limitation in mind, I've seen a lot of pictures of hostas bunched together and it looks good in the pic!

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0620/2749/7724/products/hosta-mixed-1.jpg?v=1652973623

But I'm not so sure that mine looks that good in real life.

I could realistically divide them up and spread them out more, and then fill in with Japanese painted fern, coral bells, and astilbe. But I'm still stuck to keeping them all between the house and that shepherd's hook, so I have no idea how to flow outward from there.

What are some short, full sun perennial with shallow roots that looks good next to a hosta? I have Rose Campion, but what else?

tulip poplar bark is grey .. or gray ... why is yours brown.. or is that a camera trick???

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tulip+poplar+bark&t=ffab&ia=web

are we sure on that tree id ..

to be successful with hosta.. you are going to have to keep the soil moist ... not the sand dry soil i see in the pix.. you need to water frequently.. and need to mulch heavily ... you are not going to get away with sprinkler alone ...

i agree with flora.. your little grouping is not aesthetically pleasing ...now is the time to divide and spread them ...

ID of your hosta is not possible on these pix.. and i doubt your largish blue is halcyon ... what gave you that idea.. there are only about 1500 blue hosta... unless you know more than you are letting on ...

ken

My opinion only - not a landscape professional. What you like about the photo is the variety of the hosta. You'll notice there's a blue one next to a green and white one, next to a blue and yellow one. It's not the same hosta repeated over and over. There are a couple of things that might help you. One is Don Rawson's hosta lists. He categorizes hosta into sun tolerance , size, color, "hard to grow", etc. Then, there's the hosta library which shows you a photo of what the hosta looks like alphabetically. There is a link at the top of each page for the photos to the description of the hosta, it's size,etc. at Myhostas.be. There is also a comparison utility where you can pull up two different hosta on the hosta library and compare them.

That photo you show is a great hosta garden. It's a planned garden. It didn't happen by accident.

There are two great hosta nurseries in NC. One is Bob Solberg's place. The other is Tony Avent's nursery. I think Solberg only does hosta. He's bred some outstanding hosta. Avent is more of a generalist, as I understand it, but has developed hosta specifically for warmer climates. I only have one of his hosta, which is Squash Casserole. It's good in more sun. I'm sure I have some of Solberg's hosta, too. He used to do a lot with fragrant hosta, which are usually more heat and sun tolerant.

Good luck with your garden.

bkay

Edited to add: What looks good with hosta are ferns and grasses. They add a different texture. As far as shrubs, hollies are easy and long lasting and do well in sun or shade. You can let them grow "wild" for a more natural look or keep them trimmed for a more formal look.

I'm in the Pacific Northwest and we get no summer rain, so I know about dryness. In my garden, hostas haven't done well under trees. They shrink from year to year instead of growing. Astilbe too, and they need more water than most shade plants. Hellebores do very well under trees and can take some dryness. They will start to splay open to let you know they're thirsty, but they won't burn if they get some sun. I also have variegated Solomon's seal in dry shade but not directly under a tree. They are edging the curved path on the right in my photo.

My favorite evergreen shrub to grow under trees is Lonicera nitida--box honeysuckle. I have 'Edmee Gold' under my tree and it's flanked by burgundy Hosta 'Obsidian". You can see it just behind the island, to the left of the birdbath. I just bought Lonicera 'Lemon Beauty', which is variegated green and yellow. I also grow the dwarf form 'Twiggy', which actually gets 2' tall and wide.

My go-to plant for edging is golden hakone grass. You can see it here in full sun next to the cone flowers. It's a shade plant but it doesn't burn in sun here in the PNW, and we do get a few 100 degree days most summers. It does need regular water in drier shade though. It can grow very wide and will give you lots of divisions to plant in shade and morning sun.

Coreopsis 'Zagreb' would be a good shallow-rooted sun plant that will look good with hostas. The yellow flowers will echo the gold in the hostas.

This sounds like a tough area with that tree.... I agree with floral - my first thought was why was everything bunched up in that corner? I get it now lol. I still think you could spread out those hostas a bit, give them some room to breathe and grow, and yet leave them in that corner. Also agree with bkay - it's the variety and mix of hostas in that photo that make it eye-catching!

I'm also thinking that you don't necessarily need shade plants for the other part of the bed. And being in front of the house and so visible, yes, as you had asked, you do, imo, need something evergreen. How about a dwarf ilex? Or boxwood? (although I myself have recently shied away from boxwood as I find it tempermental in my yard). Maybe some dwarf thujas like Tater Tot or Anna's Magic Ball. Or maybe some hakone grass or carex, which it may look like you already have there.... Dwarf rhodie? They have shallow roots...

The only thing is I don't know about the roots of that tree so I don't know how that will affect things. You may have to go with a creeping groundcover instead if the tree roots are that much of a problem.

Also, maybe it's just the photo but I agree that area looks quite dry. Maybe you're like me and had a horribly dry summer! You might have to give anything newly-planted some supplemental water. Or go with less-thirsty plants. Ferns? Even some lavender maybe?

Lastly, have you considered a trellis on either side (or both sides?) of the window, with something (clematis? euonymus?) growing on it? Would give some height in the back. You could possibly plant something off to the SIDE of the house and train it on a trellis on the front left side there, if that gives you a bit of a breather in terms of planting area.

Best of luck and please keep us posted! I'm interested to see what you do with this area - from what I can see your house looks charming!

:)

Dee

Edited to add - lol bkay beat me to the hollies and grasses! Great minds...

Jason, so many questions! All the answers to your many questions can be found in a book titled LANDSCAPE PLANTS OF THE SOUTHEAST by Halfacre and Shawcroft. Well organized. A bible for Carolina gardeners. Great information details for your present project under consideration.

Ken, it's a Tulip Magnolia, not a Tulip Poplar.

Thanks for all of the thoughts! I've been thinking about it, and I might have an idea... I'm going to try to work on it this upcoming week, so I'll post pics of what I come up with. It might not look GREAT right now with my big hosta coming back from being crushed, but I'll do what I can.

ID of your hosta is not possible on these pix.. and i doubt your largish blue is halcyon ... what gave you that idea.. there are only about 1500 blue hosta... unless you know more than you are letting on ...

@ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5, it's really just an educated guess. The people that I bought the house from (almost 20 years ago) really just flipped it, doing most of the remodel themselves. The wife worked at Lowes Hardware corporate offices, and back then they would give employees incredible discounts! Like, you could buy something that retailed at $100 for $1!

Which means that pretty much everything they did came from Lowes.

Locally, the only blue hosta I see at Lowes is the Halcyon. It could have been different 20 years ago, though.

you are going to have to keep the soil moist ... not the sand dry soil i see in the pix..

The surface is dry right now because the tree that hit my house damaged my sprinkler system! There hasn't been any rain or sprinklers for about 2 weeks :-/ I got it all back up and running yesterday, though, so that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

All of the hostas you see are repurposed from my other gardens, so I haven't had any problems with keeping them healthy. They seem to do well in this area with 0 attention!

And being in front of the house and so visible, yes, as you had asked, you do, imo, need something evergreen.

@diggerdee zone 6 CT, I'm going to the local nursery on Tuesday to see what they have, I like your suggestions. The roots of this tree are extremely shallow, though! I literally swiped the mulch away with my hand and exposed roots :-O So it's a challenge to find something that won't become a long term problem.

I had made another thread about it last month, and based on that info I'm thinking that I might have to use a container or some sort of decorate structure instead.

Lastly, have you considered a trellis on either side (or both sides?) of the window, with something (clematis? euonymus?) growing on it?

On the other side of the porch, I have a man de villa that I love! I like your idea, let me think about that one...

I see you have lots to think about Jason.

I like the suggestion of the evergreens for the front of the house. They always make the house look "richer." I also like the fact that there is something green during the winter.

If it were my place, I would think about removing that tree in the near future and planting a different, garden friendly tree further away to the left of your picture. I would want a nice tree that would give your side garden and front yard some dappled sun/shade--and relief from the hot sun. If that tree has shallow roots, then all your plants will struggle for survival. As the tree grows, the problem gets worse.

Another thought I had is that you don't need to have plants for that whole area. You can have some areas with river rock. I don't mean to have you surround your plants with river rock, but something more like this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/333477547409300345/

If it were my place, I would think about removing that tree in the near future and planting a different, garden friendly tree further away to the left of your picture.

I'm right there with ya!! But, of course, that creates more problems.

I took this pic last year, before all of the trees were cut back:

What you see is the tulip magnolia on the left (in front of the bay window), and a dogwood on the right (in front of the garage). The dogwood is a little farther from the house than the magnolia is, but they're similar in size and shape so they balance one another.

And, of course, the dogwood is my long-term girlfriend's favorite tree. So removing it isn't an option.

But removing the magnolia while keeping the dogwood throws off the balance.

Were it strictly up to me, I'd like to remove both of them and, like you suggested, place something like a smaller Japanese maple near where the magnolia is (but a little farther out). It would be more size appropriate, and I'd have color for 3 seasons instead of a few weeks like I have now! But alas, it's not strictly up to me :-/

If I could MOVE that 30' tall dogwood? Now THAT would be great!! LOL

Be aware that in your location the Mandevilla is not hardy so, unless you bring it inside for the winter it will not be there next year. btw if I had a beautiful large magnolia like that I wouldn’t dream if destroying it for the sake of a flowerbed.

Lovely house Jason!

Living with a tree or trees planted in the wrong place, isn't a lot of fun---actually it's quite disappointing. If you really want a nice garden or evergreens in front of the house---then that magnolia is going to suck the life out of your plantings . . . always. The garden there will always be more challenging due to the tree roots. Also depends on your expectations for your garden. Do you just want something to look half decent? Do you want the plants to flourish, grow and be happy? You'll have to water more often too.

Yes, it would be a shame to remove the magnolia, but it was planted way too close to the home and will also require you to clean the eavestrough more often. That's one thing that happens when trees are planted too close.

It looks to me that you have a larger property. You can keep the trees and move the garden and plant plants that are suitable to that new garden bed---perhaps sun loving, drought resistant plants?

I live with trees planted in the wrong place. The shade they provide I could live with. It's the roots that slowly strangle my plants. I have removed many perennials to find tree roots throughout the roots of my perennial. The tree roots make sure they drink up all the moisture they want before my perennials have much of a chance. I have perennials that pretty much look the same year after year. I find that disappointing. I see the same plant somewhere else looking gorgeous and growing---and it makes me sad that I can't have that. I want my plants to grow, get bigger and better---not just sit there!

From the picture, I see that you have a lot of garden possibilities and that is wonderful!

And by the way, I have the same situation regarding a tree on my property. My husband wants to keep it and I want to remove it. Only thing is---is that I am in a city that won't allow me to remove any tree of a certain size. That leaves me with just one tree I am allowed to remove---the one my husband wants to keep. My garden bed around that tree has lots of shallow roots which makes it a challenge to grow there. With my neighbor having planted a large tree which is now shading my property, I want to remove our tree. It's a beautiful tree. Breaks my heart to even think of removing it. Sometimes it is the right thing to do. (Also planted too close to the house.)

Here are some suggestions: The plants include Miss Lemon abelia, ferns, Shishi gashira camellia & hellebores...

btw if I had a beautiful large magnolia like that I wouldn’t dream if destroying it for the sake of a flowerbed.

@floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK, here's a picture from around 4pm Monday:

You can see the dogwood on the right of the pic, and the magnolia on the left.

The problem isn't JUST the flowerbed, really. It's that I have 2 balanced trees that dwarf the house. And @newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada is right, the magnolia is WAY too close to the house! So every year I have to climb up on the roof and trim limbs back.

My personal gripe, though, is that both of them have such short bloom times! The magnolia especially. For the last several years it has bloomed in February, but then a cold snap takes all of the flowers off within maybe two weeks.

The dogwood isn't much better, though. It has about 2 weeks of bloom time around April, but we tend to have late frosts (as late as mid-May!) so those blooms are often killed off early, too.

But it doesn't really matter. I suggested the idea of removing the dogwood to my girlfriend yesterday, and it went over like a lead balloon! LOL So I guess I'm stuck with them both.

@Dig Doug's Designs, I love where your head is! But a major problem is that everything below the black line in this pic is somewhere between dappled-sun and full sun, while above the line is full shade (but part sun in the Winter):

I like the general concept, I just have to find plants that handle the sun properly.

I really like the camellias against the house, but I read that they have a mature height of about 5'!

https://www.monrovia.com/shishi-gashira-camellia.html

Is there anything similar that won't get over 40"? I was originally thinking about a variety of gardenias or azaleas, but the discussion about the magnolias roots scared me away.

What are the spiky plants to the left, lavender or salvia?

And is that a Japanese maple tamukeyama in the bottom right?

Also depends on your expectations for your garden. Do you just want something to look half decent? Do you want the plants to flourish, grow and be happy? You'll have to water more often too.

Well, @newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada, you asked a mouth full! LOL

Personally, I have no love for grass at all. This year I had around 100 trees cut back from the Western side of my front yard, extending my usable space by about 10,000 sq.ft!!

My long term goal is to convert about 75% of the front yard to koi / goldfish ponds and gardens, with maybe 5000 sq.ft of grass. I like the idea of tapering with short plants in the front and tall in the back, along with curvy walkways throughout the entire garden with plenty of benches and seating. I also like mixing in some edibles.

I enjoy wildlife, so I like plant that the deer and rabbits can munch on without destroying anything. And plants that attract birds, bees (not wasps or hornets), butterflies, and hummingbirds are always great.

And I've been putting in sprinklers, so water isn't TOO big of an issue. I have well water, so as long as we're not in a drought then water isn't a problem.

I started that project pre-COVID, though, and money got reeeeal tight during the quarantine! So that's becoming more of a long term dream rather than anything I'll be able to do immediately.

I've also learned something else just this week that's a little disturbing. I prefer the cottage garden look, while my girlfriend prefers the formal look! So she's never really liked my gardens at all!

What's that old HGTV show, where the guy always likes one style and the wife likes the opposite, so the designer has to come up with something to make both of them happy? Yeah, that's us :-O

It’s interesting to me that there seems to be much less antipathy to trees near houses here than across the pond. Both those established trees would be considered huge assets in a UK garden, not problems.

I agree with Floral, neither tree is particularly large. They don't overwhelm the house, rather they ground it and relate it to the site. But Jason's the homeowner and he seems to have a penchant for arboricide.

Shishi gashira can easily be kept at 3', but use Chansonette if you are concerned about height. Also, sedum & cotoneaster or germander can be used in place of ferns & hellabores:

Why are you trying to fill a difficult space with plant material when you have that extensive garden along the entire length of the house? Plant hellebores under the tree. That's what they're meant for. Put a bench under the tree as a place to sit near the entryway. Then focus on bringing some cohesion to the front garden.

This would be one way to make the front landscape cohesive:

It’s interesting to me that there seems to be much less antipathy to trees near houses here than across the pond. Both those established trees would be considered huge assets in a UK garden, not problems.

Hahaha! Now, I can't pretend to speak for all Americans or anything, @floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK. I see big trees everywhere locally, so my taste definitely isn't for everyone!

My specialty is web design (and I dabble in gardening for fun), so I know a lot about balance, perspective, and complementing colors. I get a little overwhelmed when it comes to textures and timing, but I try to apply my skills to gardening when I can.

Based on that, my issue with the trees is that they block about 1/3 of the house. So even though it's about 2400 sq.ft (223 square meters, I think), from the outside it LOOKS like it's closer to 1600 sq.ft.

If those same trees were half the height, or in the back instead of the front, I'd love them! It's just their particular placement that makes me less happy.

Why are you trying to fill a difficult space with plant material when you have that extensive garden along the entire length of the house?

@Eileen, when I get stressed with work I go outside and work in the gardens... you can see that I get very stressed, often! LOL

I was originally just going to put a few shrubs under the bay window to bring in some color, but then the tree fell and I had to move my big hosta sooner than intended. With all of the tree removal I'm running out of shady areas, and the only place I could really use was under this tree. Which ballooned from one hosta to a complete redo! LOL

So I guess the short answer to "why" is, just for fun.

@Dig Doug's Designs, I love what you did there, that's awesome brother :-D

What's the yellow shrub you have in front of the house and by the dogwood? It looks like the Sunshine Ligustrum that I already have. I'm not in love with their current placement, so if I could repurpose them then that would make me pretty happy.

The other shrub is callicarpa

I live in Maine and my hellebore has not done well in dry shade. My hostas have put up with deep, dry shade and neglect. I'm not fond of them, but frankly, anything that grows in my conditions gets a pass. My hostas are pretty generic.

I've planted some heuchera and tiarella that have thrived in my dry shade. Goatsbeard has spread by seed and is pretty rampant. My bugbane does okay. I have ferns, too.

I'd put in some Actaea Racemose var atropurpurea. It has purple leaves that will make a nice contrast with the hosta, it's native and it has beautiful and fragrant flower spikes in the fall.

It's also known as bugbane

Although I frequently disagree with DigDoug’s planting schemes, this time he’s shown an important principle in the latest picture. Deal with the whole area, don’t just fiddle with odd patches of ground. Get an overall plan in your head and faff about the details of individual plant choices later. Plan the shape of the whole front area, as Eileen said. Don’t get hung up over a little spot under the Magnolia.

Just keep in mind that Magnolias have thick, fleshy roots near the surface and digging in them is nearly impossible and hard on the tree. Plantings under magnolias need to be something that never needs to be dug up or divided or moved. Groundcovers are your best option.

Fwiw, this is the front yard (a lateral shot from the driveway) that truly is a shade garden with major hardwood trees (up to 60') in or adjacent to this shot. I live on a small property (about 1/3 acre).

Beautiful! I've been thinking about adding some azaleas and/or rhododendrons to my backyard. I need shrubs that can handle morning shade and a few hours of mid-day sun.

Jason, I don’t think anyone answered your question about the JP.

I think it is JP Tamukeyama. It looks like the one I have.

debra