That's an excellent point that snow makes good insulation. When we had our killer freeze in Texas two years ago, we got an inch or two, and that saved our mostly St. Augustine lawns, which would have been entirely killed otherwise. We're just looking at 15F tonight, but just to be safe, I've thrown a lightweight tarp over even my cold weather veggies. I am also trying to preserve a small stand of vining zukes, and they are under three or four tarps and a sleeping bag!

dan, i've always heard that you don't want to cover your vegetables directly with plastic. I'm using plastic directly on top of the hay simply because I don't want everything sopping wet. Over the lettuces, the plastic cover is on hoops. Can you lift the plastic onto hoops?

Sounds like you tucked in your plants well laceyvail. You are right in thinking plastic touching the plants is a bad thing- it transfers the cold directly to the plant. It sounds like you insulated the plants well before applying a plastic layer to keep it all dry. Keeping the heavy mulch dry is also more helpful than allowing it to get wet.

I never have any trouble with plastic over veggies. What's the problem supposed to be with plastic? Of course, where it touches the plants, with no extra insulation, frost burn is a possibility. I don't care much if a few leaves that hold the plastic up get frost burned. But the burn is there highly localized, and multiple layers removes that problem entirely. The purpose of the plastic is to hold in the warm air coming off the soil, and that will benefit 95% of the plant. Plastic holds warm air better than anything else. It's true that draping plastic directly over harvestable stuff, like cabbages, might not be smart. You'd rather not have frost burns on your cabbage. My winter veggies are chard, daikon, turnips, onions, beets, and carrots, and based on experience, 15F is only mildly threatening to those. What I worry about is that it's actually going to hit 10F.

What I'm worried about is that it's supposed to get to 0 or below. I use plastic too, but never directly on the plants.

As I say, plastic directly on the plants can affect just those leaves that are holding the plastic up, which is most cases is very few. I don't have hay or hoops, so I'll sacrifice a few leaves.

It is true that whatever the plastic touches it will kill. The plastic sweats and then freezes, killing the leaves that touch the plastic. But as Dan said, it only kills what it touches, not the leaves it does not touch.

I've known people new to gardening who used plastic to protect little tomato and pepper plants. It didn't end well.

The issue is it is going to be cold for several days. Even the highs are to low (literally). Add in wind and it is not feasible/afficent to insulate good enough. You MUST have a source of heat, it will not take much but you will need a slow steady heat source.

Plastic does not kill plants, plants touching frozen plastic kills leaves - because they freeze, it has nothing to do with the plastic.

Well, no heat source possible. They'll either make it or they won't.

And of course plastic doesn't kill plants, it's of course the plant touching the frozen plastic.

BTW, wind chill has no effect on anything except warm blooded creatures. For plants (and I guess reptiles), it's the temp alone.

I'm going for keeping my fingers crossed since that's really all I can do now. With the wind, at this point, I'm more worried about losing power; my heat is a Fujitsu heat pump (mini-split system).

That's fair that protecting seedlings with plastic might be risky, in that the plastic weighs down the seedlings, and practically the whole tiny plant touches the plastic. But I just put some2x4s and buckets along the rows, and the plastic sits on them instead. With seedlings, it's pretty easy to keep the plastic from touching them. I think the rule about plastic and frost protection of plants is to do it with some care. The general rule about plastic not being good for frost protection of plants is simplistic.

Are you getting in insulating snow yet laceyvail? Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Right now we got in some snow, but the wind is blowing it around too much. We are supposed to get several inches of white insulation before the storm blows through. Losing power is more of a concern right now than the gardens for us too. Though I did just start some microgreens and potted up the wormwood cuttings yesterday.

Your heat source is the ground beneath and with the hay over the top covered with plastic chances are very good the plants will survive.

I hope you're right, Kevin. That's what I'm counting on, the warm ground. And, no, we haven't gotten any snow and none predicted except possibly light flurries. Right now the sun is out.

Nice that you have some sun, that will help keep things a bit warmer too.

It's interesting. The R-value of snow is about 1 per inch. About as good as plywood. It's a good insulator because it's about 95% air. Heat conduction is almost nonexistent.

Wind chill does have an effect on things like citrus. It will cause the bark to get down to outside temperature faster. With this freeze, a constant 15 degrees will kill almost all citrus. If it only gets down to 15 degrees for a couple of hours and then warms up, the bark does not have time to freeze. If the wind chill is 5 degrees, it will cause the bark to freeze faster than if the air is calm. Once the bark gets down to the outside temperature, you would be correct at that time wind chill will not matter. It will not get colder than the outside temperature.

Wind can also dessicate broad leaf evergreens, but that's the first I've heard about the effect on citrus. Of course, I know absolutely nothing about growing citrus, having lived my entire 78 years where you can't grow citrus.

I hope -6F this morning is enough to kill all of the weeds in my garden beds! My un-mulched garlic didn't emerge above ground since I planted it late this year. My asparagus beds still have the dead ferns and weeds covering the soil which should provide some insulation.

Trying to overwinter hardy veggies in my climate would be a waste of time and energy IMO. I don't have enough of either right now!

Lone Jack, If you're a zone 6, I don't see why you can't overwinter hardy veggies. I did it for years when we were a clear 6A here. Spinach didn't even need covering. And a little plastic tent of winter lettuces is really no work at all. I use metal hoops that I just press into the ground, hold the plastic over them down with rocks/bricks. I just use row covers until it starts to get into the teens at night. Of course, with the plastic, you have to open it up on sunny, warmish days. I've had the savoy cabbages easily take 7 or 8 degrees with only double row covers over them.

Eliot Coleman has been growing winter veggies for years in zone 4 in hoop houses. In fact, I think he invented the whole hoop house technique.

Lol LoneJack, don't get your hopes up about those weeds! Those dang things always seem to survive for another warmer day.

I have a little bit of stuff overwintering under caps. Some celery out in the gardens, and all the kitchen bins have caps over them. If the snow works, I should be able to harvest some parsley and greens once this is over. If not, oh well. The caps are great season extenders, but if I don't get outdoor green for a while in the winter, it's OK.

beesneeds, what is your zone? Guessing it's a good deal warmer than mine if you can keep celery from freezing.

Zone 5/6. I'm in a more 6 micropocket because of being on the lakeshore and due to the way the property is situated and how I set up my gardens. I'm not entirely sure the celery will make it, but I mulched them in well under the cap then mulched in the cap well. Did it a few weeks back when the leaves were good. I had a surprising spring regrowth of a couple of tails I left in a bed last year under mulch. So decided to try it with a bit more thought this year.

There's so much water in celery, I always thought it would freeze easily. I'll be interested to hear if it makes it and what your lowest temps are.

We are seeing the current lowest a 3, with -20 on the wind chill. Supposed to be in the single digits overnight. But warming up after Sunday once the snow dies down. Usually a couple weeks in January is our coldest stretch. But we are on the gaining side of daylight now, so that's good.

LOL laceyvail! I didn't say it was impossible to do here...I just said it would be a waist of my time and energy which is very limited right now. I might give it a try in a few years when I'm retired and have time to goof around. Not really sure what I would grow though.

Here's how I get ready for the Siberian Slam :

This was an earlier pic . But the difference now is that I shoveled dirt all along the edges to weigh it all down to seal and keep the winds from getting in under it. Otherwise it'll all be hanging off the cell phone tower in the background.

It all really needs a 2nd layer of plastic for single digit temps but it would take a lot of plastic and a lot of work to anchor it all down. Some of them have some plastic on part of it to patch holes in the row cover. If I just had one tunnel I would put a 2nd layer of plastic. All 4 tunnels have plastic on the north ends where it really counts.

The row cover itself is pretty heavy grade , something like Agribon -30. Don't know if it's heavy enough for this , we'll see. Brassicas in the 3 tunnels to the left , mixed greens , turnips...in the tunnel to the right.

If I had time I would have put in gallon jugs of water along inside for a passive heat source to absorb solar heat during the day and release it during the night. Might have helped a little. Lows here have been around 4 the last couple of nights with highs in the mid teens with -20 wind chills.

Wish me luck.

Okie HU

Good luck Okie HU! Hope everything holds up.

Right now got a nice 3 inch white blanket on the caps. So looking good here. Except the back edge of one cap in the kitchen garden, I think the parsely under that spot is probably toast for the season since the plastic did get down onto it. But it's OK, it is the second year grow and the first year grow is still good. It's a new cap, a bit of a learning curve. I'll lash it down a little different next fall.

It got to 4 below last night. My Fujitsu heating system is still working though it can't get the house much above 65. It's rated to 5 above, and below that temp it works but can't get things too warm. Today's high is supposed to be around 10. I'm sure I'm a lot warmer than my veggies.

How has everyone survived the blast? The kitchen garden came through just fine here, haven't been out to the gardens to see what everything else looks like.

As I wrote in a new post, everything survived! As hopefull as I was, I was still surprised.

A lot of my brassicas got toasted. Some of my greens made it , ... collards , kale ,spinach , turnips , green onions , mustard got toasted. swiss chard got hit but it's already putting on new growth.

3 degrees is just too cold for a low tunnel even with a 2nd layer of plastic without some sort of heating.. An additional layer inside the tunnels might have helped, but it gets to the point where it's just too much work with little reward.

That's the damage report.

Onward to spring planting for me.

Okie HU

I've been wondering if anybody up north have ever tried growing under these low tunnels during the winter. I 've seen pics of commercial farms up north with whole fields of these low tunnels.

Just wondering how they made out.

Okie HU

Eliot Coleman, who I think invented the whole hoop house thing, has been growing and harvesting winter vegetables in Maine since the 1990s, selling a very wide range of greens and root crops to restaurants. He says the hoop house ups you one zone, row covers over the beds inside the hoop house up you another zone. His books give all the info you need. If you can do it in zone 4 Maine, you can certainly do it in zones 5 and 6.

I guess a lot of my problem is erratic temps , not being consistently cold .

Down further south here the temps can be in the teens and twenties one day and then 60 the next. Then I'm constantly venting the tunnels and buttoning them back up.

That gets to be a hassle if you have very many tunnels and windy conditions too.

I'll check out out Eliot's book sometime.

I suspect his temps are more consistent than mine.

Okie HU

Yes, I'm in WV, also with completely erratic temps, so I have to open the end of the little plastic tent too when it's sunny. But I do have to ask, you have quite a large area of veggies planted. If you need that many (to sell? large family?), why not build a real hoop house? Your life would be so much simpler with just one larger structure to tend to--and you'd have veggies through the winter. People have hoop houses here in WV too.

A high tunnel has been a consideration but more expensive and not as mobile once set up. My tunnels are more of a spur of the moment thing. First do I have a crop to begin with (drought...other conditions). If I do then do I want to extend it into the winter or not... if so then put the tunnels over it. I do have a small green house too that I just built. This has all been experimentation to see what works and what doesn't.

And I've always been curious about these tunnels so I've been giving it a go.

I may want to get into market gardening when I retire if I can make a profit.

Okie HU

I think you'd find Coleman's books well worth reading.