I see no point to a PR that can only be accessed through the mudroom and in the laundry . You have a hall bathroom just use it . I never like a kitchen where the island creates a barrier between the sink and the fridge and never want to pass the range to get from fridge to sink. The pantry is IMO a wasted space and barely big enough to turn around once you ar ein it. Waht is the long narrow space beside the pantry ? I hate corner FPs they always end up creating huge issues with furniture layou . IMO either no FP or one on a wall. Do you need a FP for heating. Where do you have the TV planned . Isee no way to get from kitchen to patio directly . IMO go back to the drawing board and get some good pro help to do this right .

Something about having laundry in a powder room strikes me as sorry to say, tacky.

Make the laundry separate behind closed doors first and then the powder room against the exterior wall.

Your kitchen needs work. Especially having the dishwasher between the sink and the stove. And having it so far from the fridge. That means crossing zones.

You spend about 10% of your time at the sink, so I wouldn't be so consumed with the idea that the sink must be in front of a window. Especially when it doesn't make for a better kitchen layout.

@Patricia Colwell Consulting thank you for this constructive feedback! I am excited about a PR that guests can use vs. not using my sons bathroom or having to walk through the whole house to get to a bathroom from outside. I do think having laundry separate would be nice, but not sure if there is room to do that.

As far as the kitchen goes, I will include a pic of the original plan. I asked to move the sink to face the backyard and remove the door access to the patio to make more room in the kitchen. is that layout better? I really don‘t want to look at my neighbors mess porch when standing at my sink. I’d rather look at my son playing in the backyard. the current layout keeps the sink where it is now.

The pantry looks like a dream to me. our food is currently in our kitchen cabinets. The long narrow space is inside basement steps.

I agree, fireplace should be on the wall. we dont need it for heat but would like one if possible. TV would be above the fireplace.

We have time to make changes, but I dont know much about this stuff so I am looking for advice.

cpartist, that is a great comment about sink window and suddenly clicked for me. Never thought about it that way before. My sink is on a wall as is stove- no direct view our but breakfast table a few feet away is by large window and arched doorways view large windows.
I always think “ messed up” by not having the traditional kitchen sink window but meanwhile get a lot of use from breakfast table.
Anyway, point is not to turn down a sink window, and especially if that location is only natural light, but to put it in context. There are sink windows just 24” or so over sink, vs. longer expanses that encompass more counter prep zone, vs an option over another counter, or good breakfast nook, and so on.

Of course I wash veggies at sink but most of my prep is chopping! I do use a sink cutting board for a few tasks but my usual faves are solidly on a counter run. Of course I do dishes, load the DW and do a fair amount of quick pot and pan handwashing, but a whole bunch of that is after dark, actually. Or is very other- focused- looking down into DW!

This isn’t relevant to any personal upcoming house choices- I’m going to be in mine now for awhile - but I’m filing it away as useful information because you never know! It is a little factoid that might help me if someone else understand options, tradeoffs.

@cpartist I posted a picture of our original kitchen layout above. Is that better desp having to look at my neighbors house/messy porch when I’m standing at my sink?

I agree about the laundry. Not sure how to fix it with limited space… and the dryer needs to be on an exterior wall.

@marmiegard_z7b wow, I never thought about how much time I spend chopping. i could move the sink to the other window (side) and leave the current sink window and use that surface for chopping.

The problem with that plan is that one typically preps next to sink (so you can wash things) and inbetween sink and stove. almost no one washes their veggies then walks to the far end of the stove.

for the bathrooms i’m not against an extra powder room but given locations and laundry would not be surprised if the full bath is used more often due to proximity. i suppose you could try to stack or enclose laundry but i’d rather have accessable laundry than a non tacky powder. i don’t really see a problem sharing kid bath with guests though either.

@lharpie very true. I’m not sure if the better workspace is worth the switch or not…

Some ideas made possible by moving around some windows/doors.

In the kitchen, move the appliances to improve work triangles, provide easy access to the fridge from the dining room and patio, and still keep your sink window view to the backyard to keep an eye on your child.

Move the refrigerator to where the sink is and close up that window.

Move the sink to where the range is and put a window above the sink.

Move the range to roughly the center of the east wall. Add windows to each side of the range. I’d look to make these two window horizontal and place them up high to let in natural light without opening the view to the neighbor’s.

In the powder/laundry/mud area, I’d rearrange to create a separate powder room. I had a powder/laundry combo four (or was it five?) houses ago and still remember how awkward it felt to use for both purposes. To do this,

Wall off a small powder room where the plan currently shows the washer and dryer. Put a toilet on the west wall, pedestal sink on the east wall, and a functioning window on the north wall. The door will be in the center of the south wall. If the window is placed directly across from the door, you’ll get natural light in mud/laundry when that door is left open without a view of the toilet. Note that this will probably require the access way from the owner’s bath to the new laundry mud to be shifted a bit toward the shower.

Then, move the washer and dryer to where the closet is now. Leave the benches where they are.

Move the patio door to as close to the powder room wall as it’ll go. This will create space for a long, narrow closet across from the benches. Perfect for storing seasonal items, cleaning supplies, etc.

In this configuration, you lose the laundry sink. And guests still need to walk through the mud/laundry to get to the powder, but the powder is separate with easy access to the patio. And you pick up some extra storage space.

@User do you have any recommendations on what changes would make these spaces better?

@Sofia I am following you and like these changes! Thank you for offering tangible ideas to improve the space. This will cost more with brick work to change up the windows,, but we want to do it right. Two things I am unsure of:

-can a dryer be on an internal wall for venting?

-where would the dishwasher go? Next to the fridge or to the right of the sink?

@Sofia I threw this together. I hesitate to move the mudroom door over anymore or we will be walking into our table.

Saraheesmith, I always think it’s good to have some ideas to kick things off and get the conversation rolling. It may not be where things end, but hopefully it sparks progress in that direction.

I’ve had dryers on internal walls in more than one house, including the one we’re building now. The pros I’ve worked with all said not a problem, but this would be good to check with your GC. If an external wall is needed, I think the washer/dryer and closet could be flipped. Maybe a laundry sink could then be added on that external wall?

Dishwasher would go between the fridge and sink to keep it out of the prep area between sink and range.

Hope this helps!

@PPF. I appologize! I try to be very through commenting back when people are taking the time to help. We have zero room on our lot to go out to either side. So up or back are our only options, and up is very costly.

Then why not do a simple ’L’ shape? Laundry goes in the MBed addition.

@mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY) I want the laundry off the mudroom so if my son comes in from outside dirty, clothes can go right in the washer

Just skimmed through your multiple threads on this same subject.

It would be really helpful to understand your lot -- how big is it, what are the setbacks, where the driveway and garage are, any trees you want to save and anything else that may be important.

Pictures would also help.

Which way does the house face -- north, south?

Did you ever say where you are located? We don't need a street address, just something general.

Did I read you have a full basement?

You also have a limited budget, and an existing plan that does not lend itself to an easy addition.

How will the 3rd bedroom function -- office, guest room?

And one suggestion. I'm sure you want to get moving with this project, but try not to focus on the details until the overall plan is solid, and right now, I don't think it is.

I think someone mentioned in a prior thread about doing this in stages. Your new kitchen will be a big part of the cost, and it seems functional and was updated a few years ago. Maybe it could be planned now, and built later?

@PPF. The house faces north. We have a partially finished basement. It’s a nice play area and we have the guest bed down there. The small bedroom would become an office. Maybe a daybed. We dont get many overnight guests. We are located in central PA. While my kitchen is functional, it’s not good. We barely have any counter space and no pantry for food. Since the addition of my son, we are busting at the seams with kids plates, cups, snacks, etc. We really need a dining space that you dont walk directly into and a landing space for shoes, bags, etc. from the rear. And another bathroom. Stages sounds nice, but honestly, I’d rather just endure it once and be done. We have about 200-225k to put into the reno/addition. Also important to note, regardless of finances, we are maxed out for impervious ground coverage and if we go any more sf footage, we would have to get storm water mitigation which we are not going to do. So 470ish is the max sq footage we can add on.

Here are some pictures:

In addition to some of the comments above:

This is a personal thing but I find the offset corners in the bedroom hallway off putting. I would pack out the wall with the utility in it to make that hallway a regular rectangle without the little jog at one end.

Also I think it would make more sense to have the closets in the bedroom next to the primary bedroom between the primary and that bedroom rather than between the two other bedrooms:

It increases the privacy in the owner's bedroom and provides more options for the bed in the second bedroom.

And it means you can't see all the way from the kitchen into that second bedroom.

@palimpsest I understand the preference and I’ll consider this, but I like the hall closet more centrally located and the bedroom door closer to the hall bath. This room will primarily serve as an office so it may be nice to have it closer to the living area vs our room. Especially if we ever make it a playroom. I’m not sure the pros outweigh the cons.

I recommend putting the fireplace and TV on the stair wall. We live in a small house and our TV wall is shared with a bedroom. Is surprising how loud the sound vibrated into that bedroom.

Also, it's a lot more welcoming to enter into a living room with the furniture facing you rather than walking into the back of a sofa.

In addition, my first home had a corner fireplace and it always just felt off -- probably because it was the only 45' angle in the whole place. The first thing my buyer did was remove it.

Is the primary bedroom wic a have-to-have? How do you like your present bedroom; the proportions, the size, the closets?

@sheloveslayouts the stairwall wall has baseboard heat where as the long wall does not. So it would cost significantly less to put it on that wall. i hear you about the sound but was thinking the closets would be enough of a barrier.

No, a WIC is not a must-have. but we do need closet space. We like our current bedroom size and the two closets work fine. In a few mock ups, I used bedroom 2 as our ensuite and then tried to get two bedrooms in the back of the house which proved a bit difficult width wise. It also left no flat walls in the bedroom, so it wasn't ideal.

I wanted to try to draw up a plan with the public spaces --living, dining, kitchen - all lined up on the north - south axis. This meant turning your kitchen into the laundry room + mudroom hallway with the hope that keeping the back door and the side window intact will save you some money. I also hoped that not fussing with that pantry addition would free up some budget as well.

LIke @palimpsest, I find all the offset walls off putting, so I aimed to give the living/dining/kitchen a common wall on at least one side. The dotted blue line just represents new cased openings to the mud "hall" and the staircase.

If the size of the current primary bedroom works for you, I say keep it and just absorb the main bath into it to create a suite. The two common walls with the office are a definite compromise, but if it's always going to be an office it shouldnt be a big deal. Planning ahead, you can have them add a second layer of drywall for added sound attenuation.

I also tried to be super mindful of the traffic flow throughout your home. And that's what the red lines are. In smaller homes you don't want to waste square footage on zig zaggy traffic patterns. And if the main bathroom is a 15 ft straight shot from the mudroom I really don't think you need a 3rd toilet (unless you decide to put one downstairs.)

Your project is a really fun puzzle and it reminds me a lot of when I worked and worked for almost a year to figure out how to optimize our remodel. It wasn't until I explored the idea of moving the kitchen all together that the final plan fell into place.

Posting just for fun and with hopes it sparks some useful ideas - even if the ideas are "no way!" :-)

@sheloveslayouts Thank you for this different perspective! We were really trying not to move the existing bath, but I can work with some of these ideas. I greatly appreciate the time you put into this!

Hi, all.... I am feeling down as I thought we were really close. But also glad because I came here for the truth and it does not seem we are as close as I thought. My anxiety is through the roof as we are to be signing on for this project very soon, so I need to find solutions, and fast.

While I hate to start all over, I did come up with this layout that I would like some feedback on. Is it better? I really have no idea what the cost would be, but some key things:

Pros:

- all utilities will be under the existing house, the addition can be built on slab (should save money?)

-Kitchen layout is better

-3 decent sized bedrooms instead of 3rd being very small

-keep a lot of natural light

-keeps utilities on inside walls

Cons:

-larger addition sq foot = more money

-Lose porch entirely and cannot replace with anything remotely as large

-existing bath moves = extra cost

-owners suite in front of house

-no half bath for guests

-no mudroom, but I built in wardrobes to the right of the back door entrance

Essentially I need to determine if I should take this to our architect and pay for her to draw it up and see if it is even doable. OR can/should I work with what we started with above and try to improve it? Please help!

I'm sorry it's such a stressful time. In my experience all the anxiety and sleeplessness and tears are totally worth it on the front end - you do not want be second guessing things mid-project and be forced into change orders. It's worth it.

Something seems off about the proportions of your most recent drawing above - the living room looks more square than it's 18'x13' in the architects drawing.

@sheloveslayouts it is slightly off, but very close. 17' 5" by 14" I am not an expert and am using a free floor planner tool. Just trying to get a feel for that layout vs. the original and figure out what direction to go in.

Thank you for the encouragement. I know it will be worth it in the end. I just looked at November 2021 was the first time I put pen to paper and started to imagine this space for our family. I just want to feel settled in what we decide and move to the next step.

Was adding two bedrooms with egress and a bathroom to the basement thoroughly considered before embarking on this growing addition project? I skimmed your old threads, but I know I missed a lot of detail.

@sheloveslayouts it was. The money spent to do that was not worth the return and we know we wouldn’t get much use out of it.

For $100 you can buy a version of the software your designer is using and create accurate plans yourself. https://www.homedesignersoftware.com/

You mentioned building on a slab. Probably not where you live. You may not need a full basement, but you will need to excavate for footings at a minimum.

Consider the roof as you think about your plans, and your maximum size, and of course the cost.

I'm not very happy with this idea, but I'll show it anyway. I'd probably switch the kitchen and dining.

Relocating the basement stairs and extending the walls to enclose the area in red would give you space that's already under roof.

Your original roof on the left. Adding on all across the back on the right. Of course there are other ways to do the roof, but they will look like an addition.

Id ask friends and neighbors with an older child how they would feel about a basement bedroom and bathroom for their child. my friends have one son who moved from the main level office office to the lower level bedroom near the family/playroom at age 9 – Its awesome.

Their stairwell is open which helps the main feel a lot more connected to the lower level. maybe it would feel more useful if your stair was open?

@sheloveslayouts speaking from experience, I moved into my childhood home basement around 12, I don’t think I’d ever do this. But I appreciate the idea!

Your most recent layout roof doesn't work. Actually, most of the schemes in all of the threads (even 1 of the architect's versions included) doesn't really work. Your addition has to be an intersecting gable (with a hip on end) to your main roof. The best scenario is the width of this addition is skinnier than the existing width of the house, or if wider then by not much more.

Also, keep in mind your (stated in another thread) $350K covid-inflated house value, and sinking $225K (65% of value) into it - is the proposed plan what you would expect for a $575K house?

@3onthetree maybe this visual will help? She said she had a hard time figuring out the roof but it should work for the layout i originally posted in this thread. I guess ill have to keep my ideas under that plan. I know nothing about that type of thing.

i was more thinking of what we paid plus the addition/reno being our break even. Which would be around $450k. That I would easily say yes, but not $575k with that small of sq footage. Realistically I think we would get $300k right now. We spoke last night about buying something else but I really dont think we could get anything close to what we would have for what we could afford to buy. They are paying around $300k to knock them down and build million dollar mansions. In fact, its happening across the street from us right now. So maybe $500k wont be so far off in a few years. We are easily the tiniest house on the block.

@PPF. I hadn’t thought about relocating basement steps. That seems like a big deal, but I’ll ask my architect. It would give alot of usable space from the porch! I dont love the owners suite being that far from the other bedrooms, but I may feel differently as my son grows.

I was noodling over the idea of moving your stairs too. would be interesting to know the cost - i have no idea.

@saraheesmith I overlayed a grid on your architects drawing using sketch up so i could play around with some ideas. The aspect ratio doesnt match up at all. I recall that i noticed the living room in yiur drawings have been a different shape than the architect drawings.

Can you verify the interior dimensions of your living room?

The architect drawing says your living room is 18’ 11 1/4” across from closet wall to the stairwell wall, but my sketch up grid says its likely the 18’ 11 1/4” dimension is from the closet wall to the front door wall.

if the architects drawing accidentally added the width of the stairwell to your plan, that might be a probem. Our architect made a similar error and on our 1200 square foot house plans. it was a huge bummer.

I hope the architect is accurate and that im just confused. But it was odd enough i felt it was worth mentioning.

@sheloveslayouts Thank you!! I will measure tonight and verify! This will be the most exciting thing I do tonight :) Happy New Year!

I checked… 18’11” is from closet wall to steps wall plus 3’5” from front door to opening whwre basement steps are. I appreciate you looking out for us!

Phew! Im so glad my concern was unnecessary. You’ve been so gracious through all these threads. I wish your family all the best - Happy New Year!!