bry911, meta-analyses have their strengths, but they also have their weaknesses. Garbage In, Garbage Out still applies. Doing a keyword search in PubMed, selecting 27 papers, then running selected results through an algorithm -- why would this be beyond criticism? Why does questioning this study's underpinnings disqualify me or anybody else from making a judgment? Your response still falls back on, "Oh, you quoted a discredited, disreputable website," which is no refutation at all. All your response says is, "That site's biases aren't the same as mine."

" Also the researchers don't make any statement on causation. They simply note a higher incidence rate. " I agree. You can point that out to every worried good mom who comes to Houzz asking for advice about cancelling her order for a gas range/cooktop because she fears her children will get asthma. Or contact all the media which have been running rampant with this story in their efforts to demonize fossil fuels.

Reading some of the source articles for the study, many of them say running ventilation reduces potential problems significantly, and one said where outside ventilation isn't possible that even using an air purifier reduced emissions by 19%.

Interesting who is cooking with gas.

vs. which states produce natural gas.

@Lynn Lou - My grandparents cooked with gas with not the best ventilation, and they lived to be 94-101. I have memories of my Grandpa lighting his cigarette with the gas stove LOL!

Again, I am not really supporting or opposing a ban, but it is important to understand why the above statement is problematic. Smoking doesn't result in cancer, in reality only about 10% - 20% of smokers ever get lung cancer, however, they still account for 80% to 90% (and rising) of all people who do get lung cancer. The funny thing about medical statistics, you may only have a 10% - 20% of getting cancer from smoking, but if you get cancer after smoking, you 100% have it.

Similarly, many of the studies in the analysis don't say the presence of NO² leads to childhood asthma, it just says a disproportionate number of people with childhood asthma live in homes with gas appliances which have are associated wth higher levels of NO².

Slap a warning label on the stoves and let people do what they want. Why an all out ban especially when cigarettes are not banned?

I don't want to ban gas for cooking, but I much prefer induction. Easier to clean after, low temperatures are more stable, and yes there's that fire hazard if one (or a guest or a child) is not careful. I am happy to cook on an induction cooktop.

Othewise, gas is fine. My house is heated by propane, and I have detectors in the house. Like smoke detectors (now bundled into the same unit) changing batteries and periodic testing helps a lot.

The causes of childhood asthma are many and varied. Hard to pinpoint down a full cause.

A lot of the answer to this is going to depend on where you live and the reliablity of your source of gas or electric. Personally, I like backups for backups, even if I can't always obtain them.

And our parents or grandparents didnt put babies in carseats and i’m alive so why should we have any rules about carseats? clearly we need to have better edication in statistics in our schools is my main take away from this thread…

the map above is interesting. looks like some of the states with highest percent of gas ranges like CA are going to be making changes. i think banning gas in new builds is good and will very slowly lead the way for change. the problem in US is that there hasn’t been widespread adoption of induction so anyone really interested in cooking goes to gas. we need more induction options - there is such a limited number of configurations available. increasing market share for induction will help.

I have long considered switching from gas to induction, but reports of a persistent buzzing sound scare me off a bit. (That would make me absolutely bonkers.) Any insight folks care to share on that would be super.

No buzzing on my Bosch but I'd suggest you take your pots to a store that has induction set up and try it yourself. I personally would never go back to gas again. Besides being easier to clean up, I find it more precise for cooking.

@awm03 said, "Garbage In, Garbage Out still applies. Doing a keyword search in PubMed, selecting 27 papers, then running selected results through an algorithm -- why would this be beyond criticism?"

Because that is not how it is done and there are tests to ensure that isn't done... You are just looking for a reason to discredit it. You are also taking the paper out of its context in the overall process because you are not familiar with the overall process.

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Typically, researchers will set criteria for inclusion into the meta-analysis and then an independent third party finds studies that meet those criteria. This is usually done with two independent third parties, who don't know about each other, finding studies that meet the criteria for inclusion. The publication will include the criteria for inclusion and any disqualified results along with the reason they were disqualified (probably not published but given as a supplementary materials link). I guess it is possible that researchers could influence the inclusion of certain studies, but they will not easily be able to omit studies that meet the criteria.

P-hacking can happen, but is much more likely in the individual studies than in the meta-analysis. This would require coding the criteria for studies and changing the criteria around until the included studies are statistically significant. However, these studies are typically barely statistically significant. We can also look for that in the funnel plot.

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On the flow of medical research... a lot of smaller studies with significant results are published and then a meta-analysis assembles those things into a compelling argument (this is the paper presented). This triggers registered reports. These studies remove the publication bias by agreeing to publish the results regardless of their findings. We then get a meta-analysis of registered reports which removes all publication bias.

Sometimes the evidence against publication bias is so strong, that you really don't need anything else to make a conclusion about publication bias. It is unlikely that a publication bias would be quite so compelling without an obvious selection bias, which is the first thing a referee is going to look for.

There is a double edged sword in a lot of research. On the one hand, papers like this are usually politicized out of context and that creates this type of tension. Some of the authors likely have gas appliances and would prefer to keep them, they are just presenting research. So people will hate you and attempt to discredit you, on the other hand, you will finally have decent funding and job security.

This is not about health and safety. It's about agendas. If they were really concerned about health and safety there would be many things banned.

This is not about health and safety. It's about agendas. If they were really concerned about health and safety there would be many things banned.

Absolutely! However, let's not pretend that the oil and gas industry doesn't have an agenda also. I spent most of my career working with the oil and gas industry, so let's acknowledge that the industry has spent billions of dollars to prevent public health and safety measures.

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ETA: Specifically, if the natural gas industry had spent the last 50 years increasing safety measures of natural gas infrastructure and delivery along with efforts to improve standards above the 90% purity mark, we wouldn't be talking about this.

So, I do agree that solving industry problems with consumer bans is problematic, but also note that the consumers may well be the only innocent parties in this.

DH and I recently went appliance shopping. Had an induction demo, but after seeing and playing around with the Bluestar beauty of a gas stove shortly before, the first words out of DH's mouth after the induction demo was over were "absolutely not".

@vinmarks: "This is not about health and safety. It's about agendas."

Natural gas is the climate fanatics latest enemy.

@Mary Iverson, interesting graphics. I'm too lazy to look, but how did they define "gas". In my older FL neighborhood most of us don't have "gas" ... we have large individual buried propane tanks to power appliances and emergency generators. It can create a problem, because gas and propane appliance models are slightly different. Some can be retrofitted on site, but others have to be ordered in the correct version. We had that problem when the pool guy ordered a fire bowl for our pool and ordered the "gas" version and not propane. A year later and they finally installed the correct version this week!

For those of us who lived through Hurricane Sandy, the Nor’easter that followed two days later, dumping nearly a foot of snow…resulting in 2+ weeks without power in frigid conditions…induction is a big NO.

Our gas stove saved us…and much of the neighborhood. Many had electric ranges, and so were left without a way to cook. My husband cooked breakfast, mostly oatmeal, for 30 people nearly every morning. In addition, we had a gas fired water heater, and not electric start, like most of our neighbors. So, in addition to eating a hot breakfast here, folks brought their towels, and showered here, too.

When we moved to our present home in 2016, and gutted the kitchen, I wanted to move to induction…mostly for the ease in clean up. However, despite our new neighborhood (just a mile down the road from our old home), having all wires underground, DH was adament about staying with gas. Aside from the fact that he does the cooking, and loves cooking with fire, he just didn’t want to take the chance. Since I got everything else I wanted in the new kitchen, I relented. Oh, and we got a very efficient ventilation system.

There’s not one way for everyone.

all my md/phd clients continue choose gas along with everyone else

@chispa The figure's source specifically states "Natural Gas"

@chispa The figure's source specifically states "Natural Gas"

I am pretty sure if they do ban gas stoves they will include propane stoves as well.

From The Washington Post:

The Rise and Fall of the Gas-Stove Rebellion

"On Wednesday morning, in fact, CPSC Chair Alexander D. Hoehn-Saric released a statement formally denying that any such plans were under consideration.

“Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is looking for ways to reduce related indoor air quality hazards,” he wrote. “But to be clear, I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so.”"

@vinmarks said, "I am pretty sure if they do ban gas stoves they will include propane stoves as well."

Propane is the cleanest burning fossil fuel and doesn't have the same levels of contaminates. Propane has a much higher quality standard than natural gas. It has to be more like 95% propane and HD-10, which we are already incredibly efficient at producing, is 99% propane and 1% propylene.

@bry911 Just personal opinion. I just think they will come after anything that burns fuel be it oil, natural gas, propane or wood.

By the way... On the farm we have a buried propane tank and a standby generator. If/when our house loses power, my stove works, my heat works, and my lights work. Installing the tank and generator was cheaper than running the gas line from the road to the house and we liked the idea of the cleaner burning fuel. We do have a gas range in that house that runs off the propane but we also have a heatpump.

@bry911 We have propane range and water heater. We have a heat pump. We also have a wood stove. The 5 years we have lived here we have never had power go out for more then an hour.

@vinmarks - Just my personal opinion. Regardless of whether or not gas cooking should be banned, they are not actually looking at banning natural gas appliances, if they were they wouldn't really start with gas cooking, which uses relatively small amounts of natural gas compared to gas water heaters and gas furnaces.

Dealing with the American public is largely like dealing with children, the best way to get them to accept something they don't love is to threaten something they like even less. I suspect it is more likely that they want to implement stricter standards on natural gas and the dog and pony show with cooktops is so you will cry a bit less when your gas bill goes up 20% for cleaner natural gas.

The fundamental difference between a gas stove and other gas appliances is that the stove is exhausting directly into your living area. Fireplaces, heaters, etc are vented to outside and generally not open to your living area.

We went from induction to gas in this rental and can’t wait to get back to induction in our new house.

@bry911: "Regardless of whether or not gas cooking should be banned, they are not actually looking at banning natural gas appliances..."

Wrong:

• Why cities are banning gas stoves
• New York’s Hochul Proposes Banning Gas in New Buildings
• D.C. Moves To Ban Natural Gas In Most New Buildings, Aiming For Carbon Neutrality

@theotherjaye So you really think nothing from those appliances you listed get into your inside spaces? My range has a strong vent hood which vents it to the outside so why should it be an issue? And what about outside air? They say gas appliances still pollute outside air.

@wdccruise Exactly. Notice Hochul's ban proposal says natural gas heating and appliances. The language of Hochul’s proposal appears to ban the use of multiple fuels, including gas, propane and oil.

Gas in towns and cities relies on an extensive network of underground pipes, that need frequent repairs amd maintenance and tend to leak methane. A lot. There is no proposed ban on gas stoves but over time, as many homes switch to electric, it will become more and more costly - on an individual basis - to use gas. If you’re the last one on your block with gas will you be paying to maintain all those pipes? We are already seeing investments to help households who need the help make those upgrades.

@Lee M: "There is no proposed ban on gas stoves"

Did you read the links posted above?

How is all this electricity going to be made?

Bring back asbestos, the superior fire-resistant material!

Put lead back in gasoline, it's good for your engine!

@wdccruise - I suspect you understand the differences between national, state, and local politics. I almost mentioned that it is completely viable for state and local bans but that doesn't mean anyone is proposing a national ban.

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As for the environmental things... I am way past caring. I fully accept the only way to protect the planet from the short-sighted nature of human beings is to remove most human beings from the planet.

@bry911: "I fully accept the only way to protect the planet...is to remove most human beings from the planet."

Bye.

Only climate fanatics believe fossil fuel usage is heating the planet.

You know, climate fanatics like Exxon:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/12/exxon-climate-change-global-warming-research

Okay, since I started this little donneybrook, I’m gonna wrap it up on a note of humor. To each his own!

Slate questions the study too,:

https://slate.com/technology/2023/01/gas-stoves-asthma-paper-headlines-kids.html

@awm03 - Hmm… I think you have some biased reading there. The Slate article does a good job of putting the article in perspective but doesn’t really do much to contradict it. In fact it says, ”It’s clear that gas stoves are not particularly healthy for lungs, especially small ones.” and then says, ”If you have a child with (or at risk for) asthma, it is something to consider, as you may want to remove any exacerbating features.”

What the article does a good job of is explaining incidence rates. I will copy a further explanation of that from a previous post on cancer and cooking.

One of the things we do when we are researching is restrict the population to a very focused group. This allows important work but it can be a barrier to non-researcher understanding. So for example, suppose I am studying genetic mutations that produce five-leaf clovers in nature. So I comb a small region and gather 200 five-leaf clovers. Suppose I find statistical evidence that 80% of five-leaf clovers are grown in soil with trace amounts of a particular pesticide, but only 50% of all clovers are grown in soil with trace amounts of a particular pesticide. I could then write a paper noting that a high percentage of mutations causing five-leaf clovers are associated with that pesticide. Someone might then read that research and post a blog about the pesticide causing genetic mutations, but they are ignoring the overall rarity of five-leaf clovers. While 80% of five leaf clovers may have this pesticide present, only one in several hundred thousand of the clovers grown in soil with trace amounts of this pesticide ever mutate.

I just don't understand why proper ventilation isn't included in the media discussion of this topic. Of all these studies, is there one that compares recirculation vent hoods vs real vent hoods vs no vent hoods?

I would have loved to go induction, but it just wasn't realistic in the Keys. Intermittent power outages and hurricanes are just part of everyday life for which we are prepared. So we buried a propane tank under our driveway and put in a huge overhead range hood (much to the dismay of our builder) so that we could run our Bluestar rangetop and our demand water heater.

But there is a certain amount of training for our guests that the hood MUST BE ON before they turn on the range. Every. Time.

I just don't understand why proper ventilation isn't included in the media discussion of this topic.

I think this is one of the problems with our rather dysfunctional government. The individual studies and other meta analysis have made reference to this. Specifically, discussing how both race and income levels impact asthma in children and noting the groups are the most likely to have poor cooking ventilation.

However, because of the disparate nature of state representation, it will be many times easier for the Consumer Products Safety Commission to ban gas cooking in homes than it would be to get even moderate improvements in ventilation with building codes. Just remember, that in the U.S. you are not required to vent non-commercial gas ranges to the exterior and efforts to improve indoor air quality have largely backfired. Our municipality has a makeup air requirement with exterior venting exhaust hoods, so the tract builders have largely just stopped venting to the exterior and are now using recirculating hoods even over gas appliances.

I strongly suspect that proper ventilation would do more than banning gas cooking or even regulating the gas industry. However, I am pessimistic that either Congress will act nationally or states will codify even minimum exhaust requirements.

If you have a huge buried propane tank, and wanted to go induction, could you have hooked up the propane to a generator, and still gone induction?

That's how we're set up. We live in a rural, mountainous area with frequent power outages, so we have a Generac with a buried tank. Almost everyone here, regardless of income, has a generator.

Even minimum exhaust requirements would be something for new construction, and there would be grandfathering for existing housing in this case as well. And ducting in buildings not designed for it would probably be even more difficult than rewiring to handle induction in gas fitted buildings. There are large condo and coop buildings here that even when someone has wanted to duct and has a relatively straightforward opportunity to, it's been prohibited because it affects the exterior of the building. In Manhattan some people have done it through existing window openings. This shot is mostly of air conditioners but in the lower left there is a vent popped out in a window opening

I admit I didn't have the patience to read the entire thread so I apologize if someone already said this, but the most disturbing thing to me - and, ironically, the least discussed, it seems - is: Why should any stove be leaking when not in use???

I get that when you're cooking there are going to be pollutants that should be vented out, but when you're not cooking, there shouldn't be anything at all! Is this really a case of gas vs electric, environmentalists vs whoever, or is that a distracting side-show when this should really be about holding manufacturers accountable for producing products THAT DON'T LEAK!

Ventilation is fine, but these things shouldn't be leaking in the first place!

Well, I have a cooktop with a pilot light, not an electronic ignition, so those are still floating around...

“the most disturbing thing to me - and, ironically, the least discussed, it seems - is: Why should any stove be leaking when not in use???”

I must have missed any mention of that. AFAIK, this post discusses the effluent that occurs during cooking.

But if someone is going to cite things “most disturbing”, I’ll re-mention what I said earlier. What about all the VOCs in your home from millwork, upholstery, carpet, flooring, cleaning products, and your car’s interior is particularly egregious with its brominated flame retardants, chromium, and lead, all toxic, and how much time do you spend in your car each day.

People on this thread are outraged about cooking with gas, and let’s say that cooktop or oven is going for an hour or so a day. Yet they sleep on a mattress full of flame retardants, bury their faces against pillows made of memory foam, polyurethane, or other chemically-treated materials off-gassing formaldehyde and benzene all night right into their noses and mouths. Their bedding is all-cotton sheets - that are coated in carcinogenic formaldehyde - and draped across their bodies as they sleep.

People here cherry-pick the easy target of a gas range vs induction to vent their outrage. Low hanging fruit compared to the other health-endangering materials in the home. Yet this forum gets this EXACT same thread every few months about the terrors of gas cooking. Like clockwork.

Went to induction several years ago--would never go back to gas.

@Fred Lerner I assume the appliances they are talking about leaking are those that have a pilot light. Just my assumption. My range has an ignitor. No pilot light.

@M Miller said, ”I must have missed any mention of that. AFAIK, this post discusses the effluent that occurs during cooking.”

The article mentions cooking but the studies do not. Several studies, including those in the meta-analysis, have found leakage accounts for the majority of contaminants.

ETA: I don’t think it’s limited to models with pilot lights as one study measured benzene released during the ignition by electrode.

@stm25rs We're still debating the propane generator vs solar power bank, but either way, the power requirements for induction are pretty demanding. We'll eventually have a grill for cooking, but good chance that it would be taken out by an Irma-equivalent hurricane with the water rising 3-4 feet above ground level (our house is raised 14.5 feet). Lots of things to consider.