Serial number says this unit was manufactured in 2001.

Due to that you're probably looking at new equipment. If the unit is merely recharged, assuming that the system is low and there isn't a different problem that is mimicking a low freon issue then merely recharging it the Freon will just leak back out.

Check your outdoor unit to see what kind of freon it has. If it's R22 Freon plan on replacing more.

A 20+ year old unit, there's mostly only one way forward >> new equipment.

A dirty or too restrictive filter may cause the problems you are decribing. Have you replaced the filter recently and it is the correct one?

There's other reasons besides a dirty or restricted filter, but those reasons are best left for a pro that visits in person.

I know alot of advertising in HVAC likes to assume all you need is an AC tune up even though my highlight reel on YouTube suggests an AC tune up isn't going to solve your AC problems most of the time. Especially if your system is 20+ years old.

Serial number says this unit was manufactured in 2001.

That's correct, it was here when I bought the place. But over the years I've replaced just about everything except for the cases! LOL I had an HVAC guy that I trusted (he retired and moved away a few years ago), when he replaced the compressor he said that was pretty much everything, so it should last another 20 years.

Check your outdoor unit to see what kind of freon it has.

The panel says that it's 410A, which to my knowledge is restricted and I can't buy :-/ But I remember my HVAC guy saying something about converting it, I'm just not sure if he did it or if we just talked about it.

I can't find this online, other than looking for a sticker is there another way of telling what kind of freon is in there? If he converted it then I'd hope it was R-32, but I'm not sure how to tell!

A dirty or too restrictive filter may cause the problems you are decribing. Have you replaced the filter recently and it is the correct one?

@mike_home, when it first happened I used this to clean the coils:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DM8KQ3I/

I usually do that about every 6 months.

I also took out the filter altogether, but that didn't seem to help. So right now it's running without a filter.

Pro just left about an hour ago.

First he turned the air down and measured the temperature coming out, he said that it was great.

He measured the freon and saw that it was a little low, but not super low. He added 1 pound of freon with the system running, but noted that the gauge didn't move! That led him to suspect that the system isn't "moving" freon around.

From there he took a quick glance inside of the air handler, saw a TXV valve, and said that's "probably" the problem. He's going to call Carrier on Monday to get a quote, but said it could be about $1000 :-O

If it's not that, his next guess would be something blocking the coils and the solution would be to spend $8500 to replace the air handler :-O :-O

While he was here the temperature in the house dropped from 75 to 74 (with the air running). The pump has been running for the last hour with the thermostat set to 74, not sure why it hasn't cut off yet.

Based on that, do you all agree that replacing the $1000 TXV valve is the next logical step?

Did some googling, I'm a little concerned that the tech didn't try to clean the TXV before talking about replacing it.

Is this something I can do myself, or does the system have to be pumped down first? I'm obviously not doing that one, but if the tech didn't suggest cleaning first then I'm not confident that he would do it. Or at least do it right. You never know who you can trust, ya know?

From there he took a quick glance inside of the air handler, saw a TXV valve, and said that's "probably" the problem. He's going to call Carrier on Monday to get a quote, but said it could be about $1000 :-O

Not a good idea to just look at and suggest this is probably the problem. Do TXV's fail? yes. But you need to diagnose the failure not just look at it and guess. Or I should say, the tech should diagnose it. (it's not your job to try any of this -- hvac was really never intended to be DIY)

On the guessing it's this or that --I mean if you got $1000 to throw away on a guess? Sure go for it. It's only money.

I'm not saying it isn't the TXV, I'm just saying that I know how to determine it is the TXV without question (all day everyday but I don't do this from a forum board or over the phone). TXV is a mechanical part, cleaning it in my opinion will not fix it. (be careful what you read on line enthusiasts get clicks and in turn for those clicks make a name for themselves)

If it was a piston? yeah sure. But if it were me, I'd probably replace the piston too If I found a fault with it (clogged). Piston is mechanical but not in the way that a TXV is.

Some may tell you to just disconnect the sensing bulb and leave it flop in the wind. That is wrong advice. You pay for that in higher electric bills and eventually other system problems. There's all kinds of voo doo magic that some may suggest as how to fix something. Not a good idea.

The air handler would come with new everything... so if the evap coil does have a freon leak too that would rectify that issue for awhile anyway. 20 years? naw, some where between 3 and 10 years most likely. 10 years if you're lucky. (equipment regardless of brand isn't made like it was 20 years ago... in fact there was a time in the not too distant past that TXV's rarely if ever failed you know when they were made in USA. That is no longer the case.)

Freon Timespan: R22 Freon >>> R410a >>> (R454b or R32 not here yet at least not in my market)

So if your system uses R410a, that is better (cheaper) than R22. There is no retrofit or replacement for R410a. Do not get suckered putting R32 into your unit. This refrigerant will run higher head pressure and you'll cook your compressor in maybe a season of running it. If your unit was designed for R410a then that is what the company you use should charge it with.

R32 is also mildly flammable, an R410a system isn't designed for that either.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Pre-COVID, I would have just told him to replace the air handler and not blinked. But I've spent the last 3 years depleting my savings and starting to have to buy food on credit cards, so unfortunately I have no choice but to fix what I can myself :-/

Luckily, I have an electromechanical background and usually have no problem replacing electronics and general hardware. But of course I don't have a way of handling freon.

*** Update on the issue, though: last night the system had NO PROBLEM!

I keep it at 75 through the day, and have timers on the thermostat to drop it to 73 at 9pm, 71 at 10pm, then 69 at 11:45pm. What was happening before was that it would stay at 75 all day no problem, but then at 9:30pm or so I'd notice that it had been running the whole time but the temperature in the house was 76.

Yesterday, the tech turned it from 75 to 70 to measure the temperatures everywhere. He added 1lb of freon, and when he left the temperature was 74. So I turned it up to 74 and kept it there. At 9:30 I noticed that the house temperature was properly 73, and then it continued going down on schedule!

Maybe the problem was just low freon, after all? I can't explain why the gauges didn't change when he added freon, though; I didn't see the gauges, I'm just reiterating what he said: that no movement on the gauges meant that freon wasn't being moved around properly, which led to his theory of the bad TXV.

Unless maybe there was a clog, and added freon pushed it on through?

Charging an AC system with a TXV won't always show much change in the gauges, unless the system is really low on charge and assuming the TXV isn't misbehaving.

Due to the age of this system I still suspect freon leak, it's also possible the TXV is acting up in addition to that. Gas -n- Go is always a way to get some more life out of it, but it will leak out again. It could be 2 days, 2 weeks, a month, 3 months a year etc. That's the gamble. (When gambling, the house always gets their cut first.)

Next year 2024, R410a prices are expected to resume rocket price thrust upward because supply will be 30% less than right now. Government policies rarely ever discuss you not having any money to do the things they are more or less forcing you and everyone else to do.

Restrictions in the refrigerant circuit aren't typically cleared by just added freon -- unless before the E-coil was running at a crisp temp of 32F or lower. Any moisture in the air at 32F will freeze when it hits the coil. It will continue this process until the coil is a solid block of ice. (It unclogs when you shut the AC off, the Ice melts. Turn the system back on the process starts again) -- In R410a AC land the E-coil is essentially designed to run between 40F to 50F so it should never freeze. If it does freeze there is always a reason for it. (we're talking air conditioning here only, that is the application we are discussing.)

I recommend you install a filter. Even a cheap fiberglass filter is better than no filter. Purchase the thermometer and monitor the supply temperatures. If the temperature starts to go up then the problem has not been solved.

"Next year 2024, R410a prices are expected to resume rocket price thrust upward because supply will be 30% less than right now."

Your frequent fearmongering about R410a rarely adds anything to discussions in this forum, Ray. We've survived phase out of refrigerants before, and based on those, the phase down of R410a won't likely cause an apocalypse. Yes, replacement R410a refrigerant will be more expensive, but there are alternatives already available for new systems. In addition, refrigerant recyclers are adding capacity to help meet the demand for R410a. A-gas, for example, is expanding their facility in your home state of Texas to double their throughput (I don't know how far they are from Katy, but you might take a field trip so you can sell their employees your videos and merch.)

They say necessity is the mother of invention. There is promising work on the development of systems utilizing environmentally-benign refrigerants including solid refrigerants, and even water.

Charging an AC system with a TXV won't always show much change in the gauges, unless the system is really low on charge and assuming the TXV isn't misbehaving.

Hmm. Well, that's TWO big mistakes made by the tech that came out >:-(

This is one of the biggest pains of living in a small town. We had two HVAC options, and one of them retired and moved away so now we have one; the one that I brought out this time. I used to have them come service the equipment every 6 months, but every time they did that, something big would break within a week or two! I stopped calling them, and things stopped breaking.

And now you can see that they made two major mistakes on this call: failing to recognize that the gauge wouldn't have changed, and failing to diagnose the TXV properly. A less-paranoid person would have just spent $1000 on something unnecessary!

This is why I DIY everything unless there's just no choice in the matter >:-(

I recommend you install a filter. Even a cheap fiberglass filter is better than no filter.

@mike_home, I just took it out because it was freezing, and I was eliminating variables :-) I put one back in last night and it still seemed to cool properly, so I have one in there now.

The most likely cause of the coil freezing is low refrigerant (sure there are other causes, but that is the most common). That would mean you have a leak, most probably in the coil itself. That's about a $1000-$1500 to replace the coil.

Find a different repair person who will check things properly and not just throw parts at it on your dime.

This is from memory, of course, but several years ago a tech was working on something at the compressor and came across a copper pipe that went to nowhere. He crimped it off and said that it might be a slow leak, but he didn't know what else to do to fix it.

I HOPE that's the source of the leak, because the coil alone is over $1000!

https://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/Cooling-System/342796-75103/4885809

Find a different repair person who will check things properly and not just throw parts at it on your dime.

Small town living, gotta love it! LOL Other than the company that came out, the next closest is about an hour away. I doubt they would come this far, and there's a good chance that they all have agreements not to infringe on one another's territory.

Long story short, I don't exactly have options in HVAC techs :-/

Found a different HVAC guy! He came out yesterday and came to the same conclusion: a bad TXV. But unlike the first guy, this one tested it and confirmed that it was bad.

Can you all confirm whether this is a fair price for the repair?

Recover, vacuum, drier, recharge 1.5-3 ton - $1,310.10

Replace TXV 1.5-3 Ton* Solder - $446.60

It includes a 1 year guarantee on parts and labor.

I found the valve by itself at SupplyHouse.com for $185, but the tech's quote includes labor so I can't compare apples to apples. I'm sure that if I ordered it myself then it'd still be $250 for labor, so I doubt there's any benefit to that.

The price for replacing the TXV valve seems reasonable. The rest of it sounds like a bit of a rip-off!

It FEELS really high to me, too! Assuming $100 /hour, there's no way it takes 13 hours to pump it down and recharge it. But unfortunately I can't really shop around, there just aren't other options :-/

That first guy never did give me a quote on the valve itself, and said that he wouldn't know how much labor would be until he did it. I can't hire someone with absolutely no idea how much it'll cost! At least the second one gave me an exact price that won't change unless there's an unforeseen obstacle.

The price for replacing the TXV valve seems reasonable. The rest of it sounds like a bit of a rip-off!

It's only a rip off if it doesn't fix the problem. Inflation all around us from eggs to gas to meat to TP etc... yet we think none of this will effect HVAC pricing? Demanding those who flip burgers should make $15 an hour. Then those that do skilled labor jobs like this want more too and you can't replace the skilled labor with someone off the street.

The wage paid to the tech is only a small part of the costs of running an HVAC service company. A typical HVAC company could have as many as 4 or 5 full time salaries to pay that do not run service calls. Let only think about the tech, the part, the time he is there to actually do the repair and nothing else? Let's not think about drive time and the 30 or so other expenses to actually do this job. C'mon man it's 2023 -- not 2010.

Drive time? that's supposed to be free? The tech that could flip burgers for $15 an hour isn't going to work a skilled labor job that is changing soon again requiring more training, new tools, new equipment. Those changes aren't here yet when they do get here you think prices will be what they were? Uh no.

We have climate change problems so we must change refrigerants because the refrigerants we use are 2000 times worse than CO2 (short hand for carbon dioxide)

We can't just spew refrigerants into the air when we make a refrigerant circuit repair, that may require reclaiming the refrigerant (more cost).

There are some great plans being decided (right now) to do away with the economical throw away cylinders once depleted we have now, because the government wants to be able to track how much refrigerant is out there at any one time.

I started this price (cost) Freon phase out debate in 2021. There were many people who claimed it was a red herring. Now that it's on the door step... you may want to pay attention?

Or just gripe over money and think voting in this country has no real effect.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Well, it's Saturday morning. Cartoons are traditional Saturday morning fare.

I knew I'd get the Red Herring (nail beater) specialist sooner or later. Ha~ha.

I wasn't making it up: click to enlarge.

Recover, vacuum, drier, recharge 1.5-3 ton - $1,310.10

Replace TXV 1.5-3 Ton* Solder - $446.60

A $100 per hour labor rate is not realistic for a skilled trade requiring a license. It is more like $200 per hour. You can ask how many hours the repair will take since you will need to be present. From there you can discuss the hourly labor rate and possibley negotiate a better price. Don't expect a big reduction.

The best part of the quote is the one year parts and labor warranty. You are paying for that coverage in the event there is a call back in the future. The fact this tech tested for the problem and willing to stand behind his work is to your benefit and worth the extra cost.

@Austin Air Companie, I'm self employed and understand all about expenses! As well as budgeting for future expenses. But I've also been taken for a ride more times than I can count. I have no way of knowing if this is a job that would take anyone else 2 hours and they're just padding it. Or if every other HVAC contractor charges $100 /hour and my local company is charging $500.

I looked, though, and as of the 2020 Census the median household income in your area is more than double mine; $87,179 to $36,314:

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/katy-tx/?compare=wilkesboro-nc

I'm sure that the Freon will cost the same for both areas, but labor expenses in my area should be at least half of what they are in your area.

How much would your company charge for this job?

@mike_home, I totally agree on the guarantee! The first guy already left a bad taste in my mouth by not testing the valve, and then leaving me hanging for weeks while waiting on a quote. I have no reason at all to believe that he would be there if something goes wrong, and what's the old saying? "The bitterness of bad service lasts far longer than the sweetness of a low price", or something like that.

"Or just gripe over money and think voting in this country has no real effect. "

That is so profound it deserved repeating. That way of living began 11/22/1963 at 12;30pm in Dallas Texas,picking up steam every day since. If JFK and Andrew Jackson were on the ticket together in 2024 I'd switch party without apology. Regardless of your 2024 affiliation , do you think your candidates would say to either of those two's face what they are saying about their rivals on tv? I'd volunteer as their second if they would have me.

I'm sure that the Freon will cost the same for both areas, but labor expenses in my area should be at least half of what they are in your area.

How much would your company charge for this job?

If you lived in Katy, Tx I would charge less for this kind of repair than what you have been quoted depending greatly on a number of factors (the big one refrigerant and what kind / type and how much is needed)... but due to age of this unit 2001 (over 20 years old) I probably would recommend a new air handler most likely. Which would cost more.

Depending on condition of the outdoor unit, I may also recommend replacing that too. Especially if it is R22 Freon.

We use our air conditioners 10 months out of the year most years and a unit that is over 20 years old, the next step is the graveyard no matter how much or little money you make.

I am primarily known in my area of Katy, Texas for stretching things out. But guarantees are only going to extend to the part(s) that I replaced, nothing else. (been there done that)

I have video proof to prove it...

I recently went back to this job this year (2023): guess what was wrong with it? -- people like to guess so much here take a shot at it. Everything inside is over 20 years old. (I will make a follow up video some time...)

There's more than enough people that live here in my area that make upwards of 4 times what you make and still have no money for the air conditioner when it breaks.

You'd be surprised what I see in person. Just recently to a house worth probably twice what mine is worth and the unit was laying in pieces strewn about the yard. For the life of me I can't make that sound nice. So I stop here while I am ahead.

but due to age of this unit 2001 (over 20 years old) I probably would recommend a new air handler most likely. Which would cost more.

Depending on condition of the outdoor unit, I may also recommend replacing that too. Especially if it is R22 Freon.

It's 410A.

Pretty much everything on the unit has been replaced, though. New compressor, new defrost valve and reversing valve, new condensate pump, new circuit boards on both the outside and air handler; I'm pretty sure the only thing that's not replaced is the condenser coil, blower, and the cases! LOL

When the guy replaced my compressor around 2018, he said that I should get another 20 years out of it. And I hope that's the case!!

There's more than enough people that live here in my area that make upwards of 4 times what you make and still have no money for the air conditioner when it breaks.

I've learned, though, that you never know what's going on in someone's life.

Before 2017, I was making close to $200k /year. That easily put me in the top 0.1% of my county.

Then an unstable market led to my revenue going down. Then COVID hit, and my revenue went to $0. I had 9 employees at the time, and almost completely depleted my savings trying to cover payroll! Then my dad got COVID, and near the end needed full time care that cost me $4000 /month. I got to a point where I was buying food on credit cards, and racked up well over $50,000 in new debt.

People look at me now and see a nice house and expensive cars, and I let them think that I'm still doing fine. But the reality is that my income is about 15% of what it was in 2016! If my cars weren't paid off and if I hadn't been able to refinance my house (taking the remaining 15 years and stretching it out to 30), I wouldn't be able to afford food right now.

I've learned, though, that you never know what's going on in someone's life.

Before 2017, I was making close to $200k /year. That easily put me in the top 0.1% of my county.

Not fully no. I've got a vivid imagination... not to the tune of wuhan virus mysteries and the damage they have caused (not to lessen your plight with it) it's just one more crap storm that can happen in someone's life among a multitude of others.

I've had a share of my own. I come from dirt poor, the only reason I have what I have is a stellar work ethic and never say quit attitude. (never give up)

It's the only reason most of us make it and a good reason why many do not. ( they quit )

Maybe your compressor lasts another 20 but maybe your system springs a leak and it becomes cheaper to replace it to use a cheaper refrigerant. The rules unfortunately are changing so I know better than to claim a part or piece will last that long anymore. If crap can happen to your life it can happen to your HVAC system.

By 2035/ 2036 we'll be in the beginning innings of another refrigerant phase out. R410a by that time will be considered dinosaur juice. That's less than 20 years away.

The thought of a system lasting 20 years and not having to do much of anything to it have long since disappeared. (more mild climates with less run time may do a little better but probably not much in my opinion based on 30 years of living it first hand (in person)).

During the commie cough period, I worked on the front lines I was considered essential service. So believe me when I say I have my own story... a story they don't want to be told. (who is they?)

So yeah I agree with you on that point -- that you never know "fully" what is going on in someone's life. What I said previously wasn't to suggest that your situation was entirely your fault. That's life... most of the time it's not fair. I could say the same thing about mine.

But after all that I say: "I'll never quit" you?

FYI, the tech installed the new expansion valve today. He included a drier, I'm not sure if that's standard but it didn't affect the price any.

When he left, it was 70 in the house and he had set it to 67. I let it run for an hour, and then saw that it was 72 in the house!

I checked the coils and they didn't appear frozen, but did feel cold. I poured cold water on them and the water came through, so definitely not frozen.

I turned it off and called him to come back.

He came out and turned it back on, and everything looks right. Pressure was fine everywhere, and air coming out of the register was 50 degrees. After about 30 minutes the house temperature had dropped 2 degrees, so... maybe it just had to settle for a little bit? I'm hoping that it wasn't a symptom of something else, but I guess I'll find out in the next 24 hours.

So far so good! I guess it did just have to settle or something.

Another thing, mainly for future readers. There was only one tech, and the whole job took him about 1 1/2 hours. And he reused my Freon, so no expense for new.

Minus taxes and assuming $200 in parts, that means that labor was $1,500! That's $1,000 /hour :-O

I find that to be shocking. I'm also in a highly skilled labor field with expensive equipment, and my industry is $150 /hour. And my attorney charges $250 /hour! This job didn't really require any special equipment, just a Freon vacuum and a torch. I feel super gouged on the labor. $400-500 would have been fair, but not $1500.

I find that to be shocking. I'm also in a highly skilled labor field with expensive equipment, and my industry is $150 /hour.

labor vs skill are two entirely different things. Anyone can ride the clock if they are depending upon a labor rate of $150 hour.

If skill is higher between 1 skilled person vs. another: the one with less skill will take longer to do the task(s) because his skill is less than the higher skilled person. The less skilled will make more money for the company because it takes them longer to do the specific task. They may make more errors in judgement.

Knowing what to do in certain situations is just as or more important than knowing "what not to do". Invisible things people griping over money never consider. It's only about the money, nothing else.

Based upon a labor rate of actual time: higher skilled employees will bankrupt the company. Because they don't ride the clock out, it takes them less time to complete various tasks than someone with less skill.

Let's not think about efficiency... and the cost of that?

A Lawyer if you are suing for large sums of money: If the lawyer wins he is going to take a good chunk of what ever amount you are awarded. (But I wasn't talking about those kinds of lawyers?)

This is why blanket statements don't work for this kind of argument.

I turned it off and called him to come back.

He came out and turned it back on, and everything looks right.

what was his time spent on this? Drive to and back plus time he spent rechecking things? Did he charge you for that?

This job didn't really require any special equipment, just a Freon vacuum and a torch.

Does this negate his expenses for having and maintaining other equipment he has on his truck, not to mention the truck itself? Uh, no. He still has to have all equipment needed to do the whole job not just what happened to be needed at your house.

I feel super gouged on the labor. $400-500 would have been fair, but not $1500.

Statistics tell an eye opening story about HVAC contracting world in opposition to what you claim: click to enlarge.

95% of HVAC companies fail within 5 years. I've been operating mine for over 15 years. 50% fail within the first year. If you think you can do it? Good luck to ya.

But you were all too happy to complain of those that don't know what they did or how they did it?

Skill vs non skill. --- what is it worth to pay more for skill? Time. Money. More problems?

It's not just about what you think is fair... if it was you'd be here complaining about no one knows what they are doing? You can't rob Peter to pay Paul.

It's either that or no one will work on your equipment just give you a quote to replace everything and that will cost you even more. Slippery slope... at over 20 years old (your equipment) that is where you're headed. I can hardly wait for how fair that will be.

I'll tell you what fair is in person for a fee. No gimmicks.

I service the Katy, Texas area. Skill? 30 years as of August 2023.

The failure here was not on the customer's part, in my opinion. Rather, the service provider failed to communicate the value added by the service. As such, the customer was left to focus on the cost using information available to them.

We discussed our median incomes earlier, Austin (sorry, I can't get your username to come up this time). Remember that your median is well over double that of my area.

Do you charge $1000 /hour, too?

I found this from July 6, 2023:

HVAC repairs cost between $150 and $450 on average, with most homeowners spending $319 on AC service and $268 on furnace service. HVAC contractors charge an hourly rate of $75 to $150 with a minimum service call fee of $75 to $200, which applies towards the first hour.

https://homeguide.com/costs/hvac-repair-cost

95% of HVAC companies fail within 5 years. I've been operating mine for over 15 years. 50% fail within the first year. If you think you can do it? Good luck to ya.

FWIW, this from April 19, 2023 says that 20% of HVAC businesses fail within their first year, not 50%; meaning, a much higher success rate than most:

https://phyxter.ai/blog/hvac-contractors-guide-to-starting-a-hvac-business

I'm not sure that I understand the relevance, though. It doesn't say WHY they fail, just that they do. Are you saying it's because they don't charge enough? How do we know that it's not because they overcharge, causing them to lose clients?

From my experience, though, the wide majority of businesses fail because the owner doesn't know how to run a business. They don't do any marketing, they don't understand basic budgeting, etc; it's usually a guy that works for a company but decides he wants to branch out on his own, maybe great at what he does but not great at running a business.

Which is the first tech that came out in a nutshell: he's a one man show, no business name, just getting word-of-mouth customers and not knowing how to quote jobs. He obviously won't be in business for long.

what was his time spent on this? Drive to and back plus time he spent rechecking things? Did he charge you for that?

He was 10 minutes away, I think eating lunch. So 10 minutes back to my house, and I'm not sure how long it took to get back to the next job. Maybe 15 minutes at my house, mostly spent chit-chatting about my gardens.

And yes, there was a $79 charge for diagnostics. Which I thought was fair.

Why do 95% of HVAC companies fail within 5 years? It can't be because people no longer need to heat or cool their homes. The industry experts must be know the reason.

The main reason you were charged a high labor rate is because this is what the market will be bear in your area. Lawyers make less money because there is an over abundance of them in most specialties. It is comes down to supply and demand.

You're right, @mike_home, everything costs exactly what people are willing to pay.

Honestly, though, if I'd known he was going to use the same old Freon instead of putting in new then I'd have done it myself. I found small pumps on Amazon for less than $100, and I already have a torch. I wouldn't have been done in 1 1/2 hours, of course, but I'd have saved $1,000. And that money is dear these days!

So I guess my last couple of posts are really just for the sake of future readers. If money is tight and you can handle a torch, the tech didn't do anything magical or super advanced. He connected the vacuum to suck out the Freon, cut the copper lines to remove the old valve, soldered in the new valve, screwed it in with 2 screws, then put the Freon back in.

But, of course, if you screw up need them to come out anyway, they'll probably charge more to fix your work. So it's a gamble. If the money's not there, though, then you might not have a choice.

well that's why I provided the picture of where I got the info of a 50% failure rate in first year and 95% with in 5 years. But you have to click on it to see it.

Here I post it again: "CLICK TO ENLARGE SO YOU CAN READ IT"

(I'm not making it up-- the statistic is a moving number it gives you the date)

The *DATE* from the picture above was as of Jan 7, 2020. I chose that because? (context is always important. I provide it in spades as I normally do.)

Pandemic influence and the ERC (employee retention credit) of up to 26k per employee paid by the government. So due to that the number HVAC business failure rate magically drops from your more recent statistic. (I don't qualify for the ERC because I have no employees) The ERC is set to expire so what will that do to the failure rate statistic? The recession word most finanial places toss around like a bowl of KH word salad is another likely cause? The new freon ban coming?

If you're not skilled in R22 or R410a probably won't be skilled in R32 or R454b either. Throw in mild flammability for the new refrigerants and WOW? eh skill who needs it we want cheap prices! Nothing new folks.

Let's not "think" about any of that. The subject of HVAC company failure is about as numbing as finding a tech that can accurately diagnose a system with a complex problem.

The failure rate statistic is a continual moving statistic...and it's not clear how the statistic is generated... like if a contractor retires and shutters for that reason alone and not money problems? The statistic doesn't include that.

Why do 95% of HVAC companies fail within 5 years? It can't be because people no longer need to heat or cool their homes. The industry experts must be know the reason.

They also don't separate from those that also do plumbing... the statistic can be flawed a number of ways... the whole point in the post is most companies that do this sort of thing don't charge enough to remain afloat. The discussion is about money as always. The common mantra dispersed here is to keep getting quotes until you find one you like... which most of the time is a disappointment. Because when it's only about money the decision is flawed... it's either the company charges too much or not enough... not charging enough gets the work -- dip in economy --- bills come due and natural selection takes over.

Remember I get these AC service calls on a regular basis I am not * JUST* a home owner "Mike_Home" or a builder who builds and then builds some more. (Hey my unit is broke and it's only a few years old... oh why are you calling me I have no record of ever coming to your home? my company went out of business... I talk to people in person...)

This job HVAC in particular isn't a glamorous job... some do really well when they approach a sell, sell, sell mantra and only sell new equipment. That doesn't take long for people to recognize / or a dip in the economy and fall in equip. sales has been known to cause failures.

If the complaint is not knowing how to fix something, rip it out replace it with new. If the economy dips or people want to repair rather than replace... but then we get back to the knowledge equation of knowing how to diagnose + repair + know what should be done vs should not. (Or failure comes again fairly quick in the kind of heat we have right now in most of the US.)

Again CONTEXT? yeah it's important so what you read here you see someone with actual experience of? -------name your poison---------

I get calls all the time from people who say they either can't find their contractor or they've gone out of business. (I'm sure the statistic varies from one location to another as well.)

Average price points of what to expect to pay for certain things from a website is often in error by a large amount. Some people may have home warranty and those that provide it may be more legitimate than what my experience dictates. Experience again? Yeah it's either that or taking misinformation to a new level.

But from that HW statistic they don't include what people pay for the home warranty to begin with, let alone the differences in coverages and so on. So for this sort of repair from a home warranty perspective might be in the realm of just a service fee and maybe small additional fees due to non coverage of certain aspects due to the home warranty policy the person chose.

This isn't to suggest to ANYONE to go out and buy a home warranty... just a point that the cost statistics shown on line are flawed to a large extent. (Inflation Joe would be another reason)

So I guess my last couple of posts are really just for the sake of future readers.

Holes in your own story that you should even contemplate doing this yourself (DIY)... let me remind you what you said previously....

When he left, it was 70 in the house and he had set it to 67. I let it run for an hour, and then saw that it was 72 in the house!

I turned it off and called him to come back

DIY means: do it yourself -- it's a lonely place most of the time. There isn't anyone to call back. Call Mike_Home ask for his number?

Mabye it needs to settle? yeah sure. DIY is lonely place... If I was going to make a movie about it I might title it: 3 Minutes / 10 seconds to disappointment.

"well that's why I provided the picture of where I got the info of a 50% failure rate in first year and 95% with in 5 years. But you have to click on it to see it."

According to an article in the May 2023 issue of ACHR Magazine, 70% of HVAC companies fail in their first year of operation.https://www.achrnews.com/articles/153041-remaining-viable-in-a-crazy-hvac-contracting-economy#:~:text=While%20it's%20hard%20to%20argue,their%20first%20year%20of%20operation. According to BLS data, 20% of new businesses fail in the first 2 years of operation, 45% in the first 5 years and 65% in the first 10 years.

One conclusion you could draw from those data is that HVAC contractors get the job done more quickly: 70% of new HVAC contractors fail in the first year while it takes more than 10 years to achieve that failure rate for businesses in general. Another possible conclusion is that HVAC contractors are, on average, less competent business people than the general population starting new businesses. Take your pick.

We're going on a tangent here, but I'm self employed and this is my third business. Things I learned:

1. The wide majority of first businesses fail, in large part because we try to make a career out of what WE like instead of following the demand. That's what I did, and it's part of why it failed. There was also a complete ignorance of marketing.

2. I learned from that, and when I started my second business I found a market that was in demand and attempted at marketing. But that was an expensive one, and I simply didn't have the money for effective marketing. So it died, too. But I learned.

3. The third business is now over 20 years old. I used what I learned from the previous two failures and made this one work. The industry is in a bad place, though, so I'm working hard on coming up with that 4th business idea! A scary prospect at this age! :-O

From my experience with contractors in general, most are in that #1 position: they worked for a contractor, decided they deserved a bigger cut of the money, so they took what they learned from the job and tried to compete. But they know nothing about running a business or marketing.

In the HVAC field, I'm sure that @mike_home hit the nail on the head: they all charge what people will pay. And I'm sure they all know one another's rates, so there's no real competition.

What people don't always understand, though, is that it's rarely an issue of " who needs it we want cheap prices". More often than not, the issue is that the money simply isn't there, so your option is to fix it yourself or suffer.

In my case it's not even an issue of convenience. My dog had a stroke a few weeks ago, and while she IS recovering, the medicine she's on has her feeling hot ALL the time. Sitting in a 90 degree house could actually kill her. I was able to scrounge up $2,000 on a credit card, but not everyone can do that.

My MIL is in a similarly bad position: no AC, but she is elderly, has heart problems, and had a mild stroke last year. But she's a widow and her $1200 /month income is barely enough to cover food and utilities, so paying $1000 /hour to a company to fix it just isn't possible.

HVAC seems like a field where they have the customer over a barrel. We can't just refuse to buy and force them to lower their prices, because these are often emergency situations.

Back to the original topic:

@Austin Air Companie, do you charge $1000 /hour in your area?

Knowing that the median income in my area is about 42% of that in your area ($87,179 to $36,314 in 2020), would you agree that reasonable HVAC labor rates in my area should be 42% of the rates in your area?

Back to the original topic:

@Austin Air Companie, do you charge $1000 /hour in your area?

It's more complicated than what you suggest.

I work HVAC 24/7 --365 days a year. Thinking / actively working my HVAC business on this forum board and else where. Art graphics (some like to call them cartoons -- call it what ever you want -- I like to call it a train wreck on wheels -- advertising is mostly a waste of resources.)

Not everyone will agree with me or my ways? I don't care. I can't service everyone any way.

I proven my methods work: Over 15 years running my own company. Never taken a day off where someone couldn't get me if they needed me.

Videos: not to show you how, but to show you I know how. (anyone can say anything - I prove it)

I don't have an off switch just because I only post to this board in the morning while I drink my morning coffee doesn't mean my day is over only that it has just started.

Just because I work 24/7 -- 365 days a year (thinking) --- doesn't mean I am physically on a job site doing work for a customer in person. In business I serve all roles. Marketing, video, graphics, accounting, technician, manager, sales person, service truck washer.

I don't take the approach of "that's not my job" when it comes to running "MY" HVAC company. My 30 years in HVAC wasn't always like that.

When you own something, you realize better one mistake could easily unravel the whole operation. Repeat customers: When you show value and ability to be counted on when the need arises?

From the job to job perspective what the hourly rate turns out to be varies. So there is no answer to give here. I have annual costs to run this business that often times exceeds 50 grand. I pay that before I pay myself a dime.

50 grand would be considered small potatoes in this business. Most people stay in business with the word "no" more than the word yes. If you can't say no to expenses they are the reason most businesses fail, but there are other reasons that crop up as well.

So looking at the whole ball of wax of how I operate:

I think I am worth what I charge. You're free to disagree... but based on my experience (30 years) you may live to regret your choice. It's not uncommon for me to get called to all kinds of messes. From those who thought it looked easy to those who made poor decisions in who they chose to install an HVAC system and in some cases who they chose to repair it.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

This one is a year old already. But you said 30 years?

Yes.. simple math. It's 29 years right now... but in two weeks it becomes 30 years.

Knowing that the median income in my area is about 42% of that in your area ($87,179 to $36,314 in 2020), would you agree that reasonable HVAC labor rates in my area should be 42% of the rates in your area?

HVAC companies and what they charge isn't determined by income or the lack thereof.

It's a difficult situation that I discuss and show in a video I posted previously Titled "It's hard to stop? Goodman"

Is that situation always possible (the situational video I mention in the previous line) you must realize every situation is different. Experience plays a big role here.

I told you that I recently went back to that house a few weeks ago the AC was broken again... and no one wanted to guess what was wrong with it this time?

But people like to guess all day long on this board? Why?

Why would I make this point? You're never done. Your system old, new, partly old will break. It will cost money to fix it OR in some cases rip it all out and start all over again.

Income levels have little to do with it other than affordability. Look at home prices? do they build homes based on affordability? Don't forget to show your work. (prove it)