care to show us the space?

vernonia Iron Butterfly

aromatic aster October Skies

No pics possible, Ken--I don't have a cell. Real luddite here.

I have 3 V. 'Iron butterfly' in another part of the garden, but have considered having them here too.

A. 'October skies'--beautiful plant. Used to grow it in my old garden. Deer LOVED it. Gave up on it because of that.

For what it's worth, deer browse my Chelone 'Hot Lips' fairly regularly, although often times it's (unfortunately) just the flower buds they're after.

Buttonbush (Cephalanthus occidentalis) might work if it is a naturalized setting - rather informal looking and slow to leaf out in the spring but has interesting flowers. I have not seen any suckering from mine, which stays about 6'x6'. Might get bigger in a wetter location.

Some varieties of iris seem to prefer damp soil - Blue Flag and Siberian iris comes to mind. Japanese iris too, although if your soil really dries out between rains, that iris might not be happy.

As for deer - I had some Siberian (I think) iris in my front bed that is usually a deer buffet - and they left it alone (while munching the heuchera and sedum, even a couple of rose buds)

ETA - swamp milkweed, lovely pink flowers (mine just starting to bloom and untouched by the ravaging deer (so far).

For shrubs, Clethra might work.

I'll give a big old second to Clethra alnifolia, Asclepias incarnata, and Iris sibirica. Add in Itea virginica as well...

I second the cephalanthus - lovely and the butterflies love it. Clethra is also nice. Itea (although I guess this suckers) , ligularia, cimicifuga, irises, viburnum, filipendula, lobelia cardinalis or siphilitica (this (siphilitica) spreads quickly IME though so be forewarned), astilbe, red-twig dogwood, sambucus. These are some of the things I put in a VERY swampy area and they did very well. Lots of deer in the area but there never seemed to be much deer damage.

Not sure how big your area is but I put in two willow Hakuro Nishiki and they were spectacular. Helped with the standing water issue too.

:)

Dee

Ack! How did I forget to tout Ilex verticillata?

The problem with sweetspire (Itea virginica) is the tendency towards chlorosis.

Now that you mention willow, "Iceberg Alley" willow would probably also do well. The silvery-grey foliage of Iceberg Alley is fabulous, lots of plants play beautifully off of it.

Ah yes, VV, I was trying to remember one other thing I had in this garden and it was indeed ilex verticillata!

:)

Dee

yes, too bad itea suckers. It is not rampant and you wont find suckers yards away but.....it suckers.

Well, thanks for all the suggestions. I already have almost all the plants mentioned except Cephalanthus, and that's much too big for the spot I'm thinking of, as are most of the shrubs mentioned which I have in other parts of the landscaping. The Iteas I have are quite small cultivars--'Scentlandia' and 'Fizzy Mizzy' (dreadful name). That willow sounds wonderful and I love the pictures of it I just googled, but it's much too big for the spot in question, and I'm really at the very upper limit of its range. And it gets hotter every year here.

I love my Clethra alnifolia and my Cephalanthus, both in an area I redid in the fall with almost all shrubs and a few perennials. I recently bought two more cephalanthus and a Physocarpus opulfolius for other spots. The fall bed also has Itea virginica and native Hydrangea. Have to walk out to remind myself of the other newbies (memory like a sieve and too lazy to keep a journal). We have heavy clay soil as well. Good news is that it is full of nutrients and most of my plants thrive. It does stay wet in some spots, but those also seem to turn to cement during droughts! I love my Chelone plants, too. Joe Pye is another good one. My native phlox are new, but doing okay so far.

laceyvail, not sure of the size you need but there are some smaller varieties of cephalanthus out there. I just bought a Sugar Shack to add to my garden. Also, how about a swamp hibiscus?

:)

Dee

Dee's reminded me of hibiscus L'l Kim. I think there's more than one varieity but I have the white with deep red eye. It's gorgeous. Keeps blooming. No drawbacks in my garden.

It has grown to 6' tall and about 3-4 'wide but will take heavy pruning because it blooms on this year's wood. It may be worth a look

Well, even S. 'Sugar Shack' is too tall. I thought that I had said in my original post that it needed to be only 2-3 ft tall, but apparently I had written that in the one Houzz lost and when I rewrote it forgot to put it in. I'd love one of the native Hibiscus--but so would the deer.

Looks likes it's likely to be more Vernonia 'Iron Butterfly'.

Lol I guess that 2-3 feet tall part will indeed preclude a lot of suggestions! I had filipendula in this garden that was quite lush and full and really throve there. Geez sorry I can't remember which kind. Again, astilbe and ligularia might be a good fit...

You know, it's funny. When I first started gardening decades ago, I felt like everything was too big for my garden. Now - and this is a good thing although sometimes I find it exasperating lol - now they have sooo many shrubs that are 2-3 feet tall (it exasperates me because I usually need about 5-6 feet and everything is either taller or shorter lol). Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying keep looking, because I feel like they've done a really good job of breeding shrubs for a smaller home garden and there is likely something out there we're missing, some specific cultivar of a shrub that will probably work for you.

Please let us know what you ultimately go with!

:)

Dee

Since many of you are dealing with wet heavy clay, let me tell you about some of plants that are doing well in those conditions that weren't mentioned. Some of them are not in the very wettest area, though many are very close to it. I'll put "VW" next to the ones where water pools during the rain:

Sun: Panicums, Rudbeckia maxima, Amsonia tabermontana (VW), Veronicastrums, Carex haydenii (VW), Carex 'Feather Falls', Silphium gracile, Sesleria 'Greenlee', Deschampsia 'Goldtau', Geum triflorum, Calamagrostis 'Karl Foerster', Geraniums 'Karmina' and 'Biokovo', Eryngium ravenelii 'Charleston Blues' (VW), Baptisias, Iberis, Agastache 'Blue Blazes' (this one--perhaps my favorite perennial--continues to amaze me, and I'm hoping the newly planted A. 'Blue Fortune', which I think is one of the parents of 'Blue Blazes' will do as well), and, another that amazed me, Nepeta 'Walkers Low'.

Shade: Variegated Liriope, Ajuga 'Chocolate Chip, Macbridea caroliniana, Alchemilla mollis, and a small (2ft+ in bloom) yellow/chartreuse leafed Filipendula with a white bloom. I moved it from my previous property and have had it for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure I bought it as F. palmata nana, but after googling that name, I see that one has pink flowers, so I don't know what mine is.

Doesn't sound like you have enough Sedges. I'd go with another one that has really fun seed heads...

Can you recommend one VV, one that won't seed about prolifically? I'm only just discovering sedges.

Monarda Raspberry Wine does well in very wet clay here but I think it's too tall for your empty spot. The nursery has shorter monardas but I haven't tried them.

I've been avoiding monardas because in my experience they've always spread way too enthusiastically. Otherwise, they'd be perfect for a number of spots in the garden. At 78, I

just don't want to deal with something I'm going to have to be constantly beating back.

Here is a nifty website that has several to peruse.

https://www.kynativeplants.com/post/native-sedges-of-kentucky#:~:text=Frank's%20Sedge%20(Carex%20frankii)%20is,many%20restoration%20and%20landscaping%20projects.

I like the Gray's Sedge (Carex grayi) and the False Hop Sedge (Carex lupuliformis), Their seed heads remind me of medieval weapons.

trollius.

I have a bunch of seedlings and nowhere to put them so feeling a bit guilty. or maybe astrantia.Or valerian. I badly want to have these in my gardens but alas, so unlikely.

I've always wanted to try trollius, but I think the deer do too.

I think your Filipendula could be F. ulmaria Variegata. What about Rodgersia henrici Cherry Blush. It is the required size, can handle heavy wet soil and the deer never touch it.

Thanks for the suggestion, but my Filipendula is not variegated. I probably didn't describe it well. The leaves are actually very yellow, more chartreuse on the side away from the light. It absolutely needs afternoon shade; hot sun just burns the leaves.

Please tell us if and when you decide. im dying to know!

May take me some weeks (months?) to research and make final decision. Carex always apossibility.

The Carex grayi really looked terrific until I saw that it was listed as rapidly spreading/colonizing by most sources. If only it were a clumper!

But other websites are saying clumper. Now I don't know what to believe. Does anyone have any direct experience with with sedge?

Ok, I'm leaning to trusting the sites that say clumper. So, now to find a mail order source and see if they will establish for fall planting.

See what you think of Edge of the Woods Nursery in PA. I don't usually buy retail, so I can't give you a rating to work with. Try to buy from your region, though, for best success.

VV, Edge of the Woods doesn't appear to do mail order, but I did find Dropseed Native Plant Nursery that does and specializes in plants of Kentucky. Close enough to me. And they have the Carex grayi. Hoping to place an order for fall delivery soon. They ship only to the following states: KY, OH, TN, MO, IN, IL, PA, VA, WV, MI.

Do you know them, being in KY yourself?