Burgundy ice is prone to blackspot where I live in the northeast, Twilight zone is the healthier rose. Looks very similar to Ebb tide but is more robust and healthy. I have her as both own root and grafted and they both bloom the same. The grafted ones are bigger though

I loved the blooms, but Burgundy Iceberg was prone to black spot and rapid defoliation for me too. It was grafted on laxa - all my bought roses are - but always straggly and wimpy. It got SPd.

I would always buy grafted for the vigour anyway, but I’m curious to know Bart, where were you buying own-root moderns from in Europe?? I know of one or two sources for rare old roses supplied own root but thats about it.

If you have space for something a little larger and are open to an alternative, then I can highly recommend the tough, healthy, vigorous and prolific bloomer that is Stormy Weather instead. It has similarly coloured but more ruffled single/semi-double blooms in large clusters. Perhaps a touch more purple than burgundy.

Thanks, all. Nollie,these roses in questions were originally purchased as grafted from Northern European nurseries. Back in the day, when I had less experience, I used to buy a lot of roses from nurseries that had a wide selection and low prices. One in particular has VERY low prices,but some of their plants left a LOT to be desired. Now I know that whilst one might get away with a wimpy plant of a very vigorous variety, floribundas don't work that way. Anyhow, I planted them out in my garden,but they failed to thrive (back then I also was less knowledgeable about watering, too,and everything else, keep in mind),so I dug them up and put them in pots. Doubtless some had already started to go own-root ; root-stock starts dying off from lack of enough water in summer, then autumn rains came, and the plants put out own roots trying to survive, I guess. So, they stayed in pots, and the root-stocks died and voilà-own-root moderns.

The only own-root nurserey in Europe that comes to mind immediately is Nino Sanremo here in Italy; they have old roses and moderns. Of course their used to be La Roseraie du Desert, but I know nothing about it since the Hooks sold it. In any case, that was just old roses.

Jackie, you lucked out with de la Grifferaie! That is a beauty. However, your garden has such great conditions,and mine does not, so doubtlessly you can get away with things that are doomed to fail for me.

@bart bart some simply aren't sufficiently vigorous own root to make decent plants. Others CAN make decent plants but not everywhere while others are monsters no matter what or where. Traditional white Iceberg would likely be OK there own root as it is often found somewhere along the continuum between the dwarf original bush and the monster climber so your chances of finding a particularly vigorous plant (more climbing) are pretty good while the color sports tend to be more uniformly bushes as they haven't mutated to the climbing sports yet. The only way to determine if any of them will be sufficiently vigorous in your conditions is to try them. If they succeed, great! If not, give them all the "iron" it takes to dig them up and toss (or give) them away. If cost is less of an issue, just replace the questionable ones and take them as a lesson learned. Perhaps had you a garden of nice soil with easily accessed irrigation, they may be worthwhile subjects, but until you do, they aren't. Have you considered trying to root whatever you have in the garden which is vigorous and trying to graft some of your own? It really isn't that hard, as long as you can root what you want as a stock.

Bart, where in Europe are you and what is your climate like? I have 3 Twilight Zone's planted in an area that gets hardly any attention from me - at the end of my driveway facing south with no shade. We get a lot of rain in spring (March, April) and then it rains much less frequently over the summer. They seem to do fine though, they do slow down when it gets hotter but they don't shut down and don't look stressed. Our summers are high 80s/low 90s. My soil is clay alkaline. Not sure if that helps at all

Thank you both so much. Elestrial,your comments help, of course! I'm in Tuscany, Italy. We've been hit hard by global warming; the summers here have become unbearable-last summer we suffered through many weeks of temperatures above 100° F in the SHADE. It has also basically stopped raining here during summer, whilst other areas in Tuscany are instead hit by devastating flash storms. So I think my climate is worse than yours. Also, I have no running water out at my land, which is far from my home so watering is a real challenge. Are yours grafted?

Kim (alias roseseek), cost is always an issue, but how much something "costs" does not necessarily refer to money, as I'm sure you'll agree. Barni's prices are totally honest: 13,50 for a new bare-root Burg. Ice. So, though your response about these roses is less decisive than was the one you gave about Ebb Tide/P. Eden,it is still illuminating. It seems to me that the most "natural" colours for roses are simply white and pink, like the wild roses that so adore my land. So I can't help but think that it's less likely that such a luscious dark purple could possibly have the same vigour as it's simple white-flowered progenitor. It probably would "cost" too much labour , coddling ,water, etc from me to make it worthwhile to make the test-better off starting off fresh with a vigorous, healthy new plant.

TZ is more expensive- Barni charges 17.50 euros for one, but after reading some of the threads on this forum...well, that's an honest price (though why it would cost so much more than BI and it's mates I don't know,lol). I think for now I'll go ahead and leave the own-root one alone, but will get a bare-root, too-just to see. If the difference is as awe-inspiring as was that between the bare-root and own-root P Eden,I can always ditch the own-root one later. But the own-root PE had only very thin, thin canes(only 3 total)-even the new one it put out was so. The own-root TZ does have only 2(?) little canes, but they are fatter, closer to pencil-sized. It did put on some height, too. Any remarks would be appreciated!

Oh wow, so sorry Bart, I had no idea it was so hot where you are (and dry). I wonder if the dark purples will be an issue with crisping in your heat. I know Twilight Zone does sometimes fry on warmer days (and warmer for me being low to mid 90s). If you do end up trying her, maybe putting her in a spot where she gets some afternoon shade when the sun is the hottest?

@User TZ is either likely currently patented while the others aren't, or its patent requires a greater royalty payment.

Bart, somewhat aside from your question here, do you know anything about the nursery Fior di Rose? They apparently took over the late great La Campanella when its owner retired. La Campanella, though it sold only grafted roses, was an excellent nursery, for the quality of its plants, the selection--it carried a large assortment of once-flowering old roses, many rare--and the honesty and conviction of its owner. I don't know anything about the new nursery.

No, I don't ,Melissa-thank you for the info! La Campanella WAS good...

Gotta Google this new one. Thanks again!

Oh I see, sorry, I misunderstood Bart, I thought from what you said that you bought them own root!

The ‘economical Dutch nursery’, was that, by any chance, Tuincentrum Lottum? That’s an incredibly economic place and a great many of my early roses were from there. They supplied roses with strong, lusty scions and huge root stocks, and even the occasional wimpy one that slipped through, ultimately thrived. They have been less impressive since covid chaos struck, with a few failed grafts and a lot of mislabeled stock sent out, but I’m thinking of giving them another chance this year.

I salute you for persevering with the purples. Here, most still fry or stop blooming in summer and need a LOT of food and a ton of water, preferably rainwater, to thrive. The lure of purple blooms is irresistible though isn’t it? We can fight over the last TZ from Barni, lol!

o, don't worry, Nollie; I bet Barni will have lots of TZs in fall. I did indeed buy from Tuincentrum Lottum,but that was years ago. Sad to say, however, I don't think my experience with them was anywhere nearly as good as yours!

I must have been lucky and hit the TCL golden period, then Bart! Funny how we can have completely different experiences of the same nursery. I received a lot of struggling, wimpy and mislabeled perennials from Promesse de Fleurs, but practically everyone I know in France had good quality plants from them.

Never heard of that one-must look it up. Not to order, mind, just out of curiosity.