Jay- Spicebush wasn’t on my radar but is a neat idea I’ll have to check my nurseries, I found a few forums saying it could work under pines even though apparently it likes moist soil. The further I plant it out from the pine tree line the more sun i could get it. It’s listed on Rutgers deer resistance list (which isn’t perfect) as a B rating compared to arrowwood viburnum an A rating so I’m curious if that’s true in practice. The little playset thing there is just staged there until my friend picks it up so it doesn’t kill the grass and it won’t really be a designated play area unless the kids want to hide behind or climb the trees. Not to mention, I notice all the white pines I’ve had tended to foster poison ivy under them so if vinca creates a trip hazard then maybe a good fall will save them from an eventual bad case of poison ivy. As for the large area of vinca not looking good, I find it charming whenever I see patches of it but more to the point if it’s not a sea of something I plant it’ll be a sea of creeping Charlie, other weeds, and poison ivy. And also I imagine once I get the green giants established they’ll continue to take up more and more surface area. Plus I can always add different shrubs for color and interest down the line. Thanks for the spicebush recommendation.

As for your vinca major eventual switch out, I’ve read it’s a bigger problem than vinca minor and I’ve seen it in a large patch in the woods near me so maybe in this case it is a good idea I don’t know. But if you do switch I wouldn’t hold yourself to an inferior or much costlier option just because it’s native. That’s just my sensibilities though.

Gardengal- I come across your comments from time to time when I’m looking up a subject and I always appreciate what you write because I feel it’s practical for 99% of people. I appreciate your sensibility. I actually kept seeing your name come up recently as I looked up Frans Fontaine Hornbeam, which somehow is impossible to find online (unless I wanted to spend $500). Anyway, yes for a short period there I thought it was my duty or something to only plant native until this man I trust on the matter told me actually a lot of these non-natives I’m worried about aren’t a big deal. This was a huge relief, saving me time, money, and stress. I’ve also wondered if some of these non-natives are just more aggressive in the south and much less so in the north and the internet loses this in translation. That’s very good to know about how vinca minor can and can’t spread and guarantees my planting of it will not lead to its world domination because this spot is backed by a log wall and surrounded by grass which is mowed weekly. And ok I’ll check out Epimedium as well. Thank you so much GardenGal you are a treasure.

My situation is completely different - I live in Manhattan and just planted vinca minor in the foundation beds of our building underneath holly trees. The area is at least as large as yours if not bigger, though some spots of it do get more light than yours. However, both the deep shade and semi-deep shade areas are thriving.

I've had to do one big round of weeding in the area planted six weeks ago. Another gigantic area planted two years ago needs one to two good weedings per season, which in my book isn't too bad.

I've seen vinca come in flats of plugs or in large flats of uncut chunks. (Not a great descriptions, I know.) I like to plant the large flats that you have to saw up into chunks. It is a bit time consuming to untangle the vines and pull apart the chunks, however, the planting goes fast and the spread and density is much greater. The cost seems to be the same. I cut my half flats into 6 chuncks each.

I'm with you on not jumping on the native bandwagon. Natives can be invasive too. And, our climate and world has changed so much since these plants were once native that the calculus no longer makes as much sense to me. And, as with most environmental practices, putting the burden on individuals doesn't make any sense at all, and only opens the doorway for ridiculous marketing ploys. I was thrilled to read a paper by a Dutch landscape designer defending this perspective.

The Vinca major is at a friend's house where I also garden. I would never grow it at my place. Creeping Charlie does grow underneath the Vinca and Sedum, but it's mostly not visible and not much of it gets a foothold. I grow 4 Spicebush in regular soil that dries out in between rains. They should do well in a moisture retentive soil that periodically dries out. I water my Spicebush when there are droughts.

Years ago, in the 70s, I saw Vinca minor covering the ground in acres and acres of pretty remote forested land in upstate NY not far from Ithaca, NY. How it got there, I don't know. Rather than Vinca, I'd go for Geranium macrorrhizum under those trees.

Kendra-I haven’t seen the flats that aren’t in plug trays for vinca but I see them with sedum, and I did notice the flats of vinca are a tangled web. I figure I’ll just have to do some mix of untangling and cutting of the stems. It’s good to hear how well your plantings are doing and that the weeding isn’t too bad. I’ll try to find that paper particularly if it’s written for the layman. The person at the nursery buying the $22 flat of 24 Japanese pachysandra plugs and passing over the one gallon slow spreading native $15 pachysandra just can’t be blamed. Thank you for your comment and good luck with managing your beds.

Laceyvail- i spent two years in Ithaca and surrounding area, very beautiful. Shame about the acres of vinca. If I can find geranium macro in plug form for cheap I will consider it but in person I only see it in larger containers and this area is too root heavy to be digging larger holes. Not to mention the price. Vinca is less than a dollar per plug, that’ll be tough to be even online ordering for anything except seeds. Thank you though I do plan to use geranium in places because I see how you and some others favor it.

Cecily- is there any difference in conditions of the two beds? My concern about pachysandra is its sun tolerance should factors in this larger bed change in the future. But I will google white pines and pachysandra and see what I can find. Thank you.

Why do you need anything under the pines? IMO the most attractive look is pines with a layer of fallen needles blanketing the area underneath them. Very soft to walk on, too.

Mxk3- the pictures I posted are deceiving, I needed a place to put a bunch of wood chips I never should have ordered in the first place. So it looks actually quite nice at the moment but in a week or two it’ll be covered in weeds again. I may have messed up some years ago by doing the same thing and trafficked in the weeds with the wood chips. It’s hard to remember, but I somewhat agree a nice perfect bed of needles would be nice. I just fear I’ve gone past the point of no return with my previous mistakes. But it’s also because I plan on converting the area to Green giants, although Jay and Sigrids suggestions above about spicebush and viburnum between the trees is making me rethink a bit. Frankly in a perfect world I’d cut down the pines and copy some plans of a mostly evergreen mixed border with all sorts of different plants. Costs and slow growth rate and deer are holding those ambitions back.

This spring, we had our row of white pines taken down. You would be surprised at what managed to seed in under them. The first prize goes to a volunteer tree peony.

I agree with Cecily that the patch of vinca requires a lot more weeding than the patch of pachysandra next to it. It also is much better at invading lawn since it is lower than the mower blades.

My added 2 cents, is that you should have the trees taken down before planting replacements. I gave serious consideration to something like what you are planning, but to get far enough away from the pines for most normal shrubbery to thrive eats up a lot of space. All the tree trunks on the left side are white pines.

"If I can find geranium macro in plug form for cheap I will consider it..."

Do some on-line searching to see if there are any native plant nurseries within a reasonable distance of where you are. There's a couple really good ones here in MI and they do indeed have plug trays as well as larger size -- the situation may be the same where you are. If not the geranium, perhaps something else native to your area that would serve the same purpose as the vinca.

"And, our climate and world has changed so much since these plants were once native that the calculus no longer makes as much sense to me."

If it was once native to an area, it is still native to an area. And they still make sense. A tremendous amount of sense. Don't get me wrong -- my property isn't 100% native and I do think there is room for nativars and non-natives, but when a property owner plants primarily non-natives and those plants can't meaningfully support the ecosystem (some can, some can't), then they are passively contributing to the demise of local ecosystems. If anything, native plantings and preservation of prairies, wetlands, etc help mitigate some of the effects of climate change -- balanced, robust ecosystems breed resiliency.

Mad Gallica . It’s neat we found ourselves in similar situation considering similar solutions. The log wall in my picture is actually made of mostly of white pines I cut down from the opposite side of yard and it’s hard to recall but I mostly remember poison ivy growing under them. Once I cut them down it was horrendous with weeds, had to tarp the area and seed, it actually turned to grass quite nicely. Your point about cutting the white pines down first or having to plant too far away from the line is sadly probably exactly right. Also will make felling the pines simpler. If I’m removing the pines then the area will be quite sunny and I’d worry pachysandra can’t handle that sun. Maybe I should plan on 1. Remove pines 2. Plant replacements 3. Choose ground cover instead of 2,3,1 as my post first suggested. Maybe then liriope is in consideration, the patches of it I have suppress weeds to my satisfaction and it can take a beating according to my dog. Thank you for your input

I have vinca minor under a tree and it's ok. For me it grows unevenly so it never looks as good as I think it should.

I'm a big fan of epimedium. It grows under a huge maple in my yard with big roots and dry shade where nothing else will grow (except weeds). I've planted them in a teaspoon of soil and they always establish and survive with very little attention. If they start to look ratty I cut them all the way back in early Spring and they never fail to come roaring back. Very sturdy plants and, to my eye, attractive.

I also like pachysandra. They're very inexpensive, fill in quickly and look good year-round. I have a large bed of it that my dog tromps through and pees in and it always looks great. It survived a horrible multi-day ice storm this winter when a lot of other plants didn't. No weeds.

Ground cover is a great idea, William. Go for it!

When I was first given it, I wasn't a fan of liriope because I thought it looked too much like grass. It ended up in a shrub border where it mixes with the grass, and it is actually nice that the mowing line is determined by the shrubs and not by the groundcover.

However, in the neverending battle against poison ivy, bittersweet, Amur honeysuckle, and garlic mustard, I am becoming a BIG fan of mown lawn.

Einportlandor-epimedium looks good to me too, never grown it before but I like the sound of it growing in a teaspoon of soil. I took this picture at 3pm and got me thinking the area aside from the fullest pine on the left is actually quite sunny and getting sunnier as limbs are lost each year. Does epimedium fare well in sun, online it says part to full shade? Seems similar to pachysandra in that respect. I’ll map out how much sun the area gets tomorrow from morning ti sunset. I just started a pachysandra bed and of course I started planting it right before my mulberry trees were dropping their berries and the deer had a field day with many of them as they went for the berries. It’s all good now though. Im going to throw liriope spicata in the mix of contenders because of its full sun and I believe mostly shade tolerance. Thank you for your help

So Mad Gallica, are you saying you planted the liriope and it spread into the grass but it’s no big deal because you just mow it like it grass? Where I have it currently it’s on the other side of a walk in a rock bed and maybe the rocks keep it suppressed even though in the back it’s thin light “lava rock” like those little red shale pebbles which I’d think it could shoot up through similar enough to mulch.

I planted the liriope as a groundcover under a rose that, at that point in time, was rather large. Several years later, the rose had a near death experience, and became much smaller. So the ground the groundcover had to cover became much smaller. Now, the parts that had been liriope that get mowed regularly are reverting back to grass, but it doesn't look particularly bad. It isn't like a pachysandra bed that almost needs a crisp edge to look good.

Lots of good posts here . Thank you.

Rather than Vinca, I'd go for Geranium macrorrhizum under those trees.

I second this option as this plant is bullet proof. But give the size of the area one would need to be able source plugs and that might not be easy.

Here you go William, published 10 years ago, you can find this on line. You have been given alot of good advice here. I would suggest learning how to properly prune tree branches on your pines, don't leave snags.

I'm looking at your second pic. It looks like the area doubles as a playground, nothing wrong with that. How do you plan to keep kids & pets out of your new planting? You state that you have deer (just like the rest of us). How will you protect your proposed arborvitae from deer?

Picture this: I have a friend who is retired, he owns a 4 acre wooded lot. He diligently fences out the deer and removed english ivy. It has been great to see his lot evolve. It is green and lush, lots of ferns and no weeds.

Pleeeeease don't let anyone talk you into planting running bamboo. Weeds like this degrade the value of your property.

You state ......... puts too much onus on the individual. Here's the way I see it, those of us who own property are responsible for carefully, well-reasoned, educated decisions. Take advantage of Nat'l Park Svce & US Fish & Wildlife booklet, they have good advice.

I don't believe anyone mentioned anything about running bamboo.........

I am growing some epimediums and G. macro’s in a few areas that are much smaller and even then it is slow and relatively expensive. But I also have bad rocky soils which means a) hard to dig holes and b) soil around anything planted is not very hospitable for the usual ways groundcovers spread.

I do think that’s it might be more work + dicey + more expensive in long run to try to do a big planting project now but expect to take lines down later anyway. Yes, you would have a while of no privacy, but you’d be able to consider some large ( eventually) shrubs plus groundcovers that seem suitable for the new sun & moisture conditions. Also could see how far to let lawn extend vs how much for shrubbery, since you’re mowing anyway and in good sun the right lawn outcompetes weeds.

Sam- I found the article and it’s not much more impressive than “6 groundcovers to avoid” articles in various clickbait sites. The area isn’t a playground, the swingset is just there so it doesn’t kill the grass before I get rid of it. As for the arborvitae , I would fence it in in the winter while it’s young. When it gets large I’ll let it be limbed up by deer if they can still get in. I would never plant bamboo, it’s a very obvious threat. Which is sort of my problem with things like vinca minor being in the same list without clear and obvious distinction to things like callery pears and running bamboo.

I’m an individual on my own property but my tiny little property exists in a much larger world of things beyond my control. Extreme deer overpopulation being an obvious example.

Marmiegard- I think you’re right, cut the trees down first then plant. And yes the shape of the bed could well change, not needing to be so large when the initial plants are tiny. I may try taking a tree down a year instead of doing it all at once. Thanks for your input

What am I missing? Why do you want to cut down the trees?

Hi William,

You have a big project there. It’s great that you are trying to think it through and get it right the first time. I can tell you that I have been growing Vinca for 30+ years under a Maple but I would not recommend it for your application. I have it in an area between a fence, a driveway and a street. It did grow under the fence into my neighbor’s yard and he has a patch of it now. Fortunately he doesn’t mind it at all but he is particularly disinterested in his yard, and few people are. It does attempt to escape on the one side it is open to the yard and I have to keep my eye on it and have managed to just trim it back in the spring, it’s a small area.

But GG is right, Vinca only spreads by rooted stems, no seeds or berries. Just if you really want it to remain inside a designated area, at some point it will reach the outer edge and you will be giving yourself a job to trim it back and keep it in bounds. That is a large edge to that area that you’d have to tend to. OR maybe you could do it with a lawn mower or weed whacker? I don’t use weed whackers and never have to mow mine. I would find it daunting to have to keep that in bounds on all sides. I just have one side to keep up with and that’s why I really enjoy my Vinca. It solves my problem well and I like it a lot. I also grow Epimedium through it and I’m surprised how well it grows and looks very pretty in the spring. I also grow crocus up through it in the spring and then another bulb…Leucojum. It has had a few weeds pop up in it, and around the mulched edge but very minor. 90% of it I've never had to weed.

The street is dead ahead and the driveway is to the Right in this photo.

Here is a couple of Epimedium growing up through the Vinca, I have more and that is smaller than it is now.

If you have creeping Charlie, that may be a weed that would continue to disrupt your new plants if you don’t remove it first, and I hear it is not easy to remove. I also do not have this weed, so no first hand experience. But I would start a thread on that subject and see how others have successfully removed it. You don’t want to spend all that time and money putting in a new planting to see the Creeping Charlie coming back all through it.

What is better than Lady Slippers?! Lol But I am not surprised that they are expensive and slow to get going. Aren’t they also very fussy about their environment?

Half of my garden plants are native, as I do see the value of them, but, for me, they have not been the solution in every application. For instance, I love Tiarella Cordifolia and bought a few of them at the NE Wildflower Society and they only came back two seasons before petering out. And that has been the case with a number of natives I bought at least a half a dozen Viburnums and I have one left and that one gets eaten by a bug every year making some of the foliage look like Swiss cheese. I’m still a Viburnum fan and might try some again. I have a friend who grows them well with no problem.

If you ended up wanting an alternative to Viburnum, one native Shrub that has done well for me is the Gray Dogwood. It is FAST - and it filled a corner where I'd tried many planting ideas that didn't take, in a lot of shade in tree roots. It does sucker and spread though. But that is well worth it for me to take 20m every other spring to hand pull any of the small starts that are spreading out, because it was the perfect solution for that corner. It's a great screen but not evergreen. If it gets some sun, it will flower and produce berries. The robins and other birds love the white berries. And I never have to weed under it. It's also pretty drough tolerant. Oh, one last thing....it did spread into the lawn. I put two hydrangea between it and the lawn and that prevented it from moving into the lawn, but in a small section without the Hydrangea between it, it did move into the lawn. All I did was mow over it and it seems fine.

I have a lot of areas under mature Maple trees and spruce and it is dry shade. I’ve tried lots of things including natives, like the Tiarella, like woodland phlox, like Virginia Bluebells and many others. They just were not happy here. So I researched what grows in dry shade and ended up with a few things…Epimedium which is not a native, Japanese Painted Ferns don’t mind shade or dry shade. Or some sun for that matter, they are pretty bullet proof here. I do grow Hellebore around the edges where there is more sun. But I’d like to have a woodland garden rather than just a solution to weeds and screening. And the Epimedium can be expensive but not all of them are. There are varieties that are ‘runners’ that spread and those cover ground quicker and in my experience do not become a problem until the rabbits decided they love them. Japanese ferns will spread some if they are happy.

And no one has recommended European Ginger - this is a patch I have on the north side of the garage under the dripline of the same Maple that the Vinca is under. It seems to spread gradually and does smother weeds. It's growing there with an Epimedium and a Japanese Fern and this year those are much larger. The European ginger is hiding under the Epimediums this year. There is a native Ginger and that may make a good ground cover in dry shade, I don't remember.

I did recently ask for ideas for Shrubs for pollinator in part shade and two natives that were recommended were not actually shrubs, Chelone and Hypericum. Something like that might be another option. I’m probably going to try that because now the rabbits have devoured my epicedium that was working so well for over a decade. Those grow a little taller than the Vinca, and again, you’d have to see if you have enough sun for anything you plant there.

Hi Prairiemoon- thanks so much for the thoughtful comment. I do think I’d weed whack the long edge of the bed to contain it and at least there is the log wall behind it that’s about 20 inches thick to hopefully prevent easy spread to the neighbor (their landscapers would whack the heck out of it anyway). But I’m also maybe leaning towards liriope spicata or creeping lily turf. It seems maybe it would prevent weeds better and I also like the tall grass look but vinca has a nice charm to me too. I havent seen liriope plugs in store but think I saw some online, wasn’t clear how reputable the site was though. I also wonder if I remove the trees first and it becomes quite sunny, if something like prairie dropseed would even be good solution. As for rabbits suddenly eating your epimedium, this scares me off a bit. I think ferns would be sweet, I just worry the site may already be too sunny and will only get sunnier as trees come down. I gave tiarella cordifolia a shot too and something devoured it instantly. Good luck on your epimedium replacements, such a shame the rabbits finally decided to go for it.

Mxk- initially the whole 200 ft line was lined by then 10 feet apart, I think now maybe a bit less than half are standing. One not pictured closer to the street is basically on its last legs and it’s small so that’ll be an easy chop up. So one reason is they seem to be dying which is what initially got me thinking about beginning to plant their replacements so as to ease the transition. But then I figured at some point while their replacements were growing they could get to a point where I’d need to cut down the pines for them to really fill in. The picture probably doesn’t capture how see through the “screen” is. These trees were limbed up some years ago, which I think was a mistake. And since the next rungs of branches have been dying. The trunks themselves do much of the actual screening, the rest of the tree provides a decent but inadequate illusion of a screen. The log wall I added some years ago helps create a feeling of privacy too without actually visually screening anything. Long story short, the backyard in recent years became too much of a fishbowl and I’m taking measure to correct it.

I know, it is a shame because I had been collecting them for awhile and they were a great solution under my Maples. But...this year they went back to the same bed and mowed them down. There are plenty more around the yard that they ignored. Odd. And they have not touched the epimedium in the vinca. I don't think they like to go in the Vinca. [g] They definitely don't eat the Vinca, or my Geraniums or Ferns or European Ginger.

I found a few other photos.

Epimedium in Vinca

Epimedium

Epimedium

Epimedium

These are untouched by the rabbits...Three large epimediums in shade with European ginger and Japanese Painted Ferns.

European Ginger and Japanese Painted Fern

Here is a Geranium in bloom....two different varieties. of them actually. That is in about 3-4hrs of sun a day from the west. You'd do better with this at the edges if you were going for a mixed planting.

You mentioned you have deer....and ultimately you'd want a mixed evergreen planting. I don't have deer but I've read lots of posts from people whose evergreens get chewed. I'd do research on the specific evergreens you want to use as to whether deer favor them. I thought they eat Arborvitae, no? What about Blue Hollies? Have you considered them for a screen? Not sure about deer interest, but I have a lot of them in dry shade and they do really well and are great screens all year round.

OKay, that's all I got...lol. Good luck!

Prariemoo - when I first replied I didn’t see your pictures, what a lovely landscape. The ginger has such a charm to it, christmasy, and it’s a neat look next to the painted fern. Your geraniums looks awesome, I need to incorporate them somewhere. Even aside from the flowers I like the red/green leaves of the epimedium. Your pictures of the vinca are almost making me lean back towards them instead of liriope, they’re just so deep green like the ginger. Maybe geranium at the edges is a solution to containing vinca or liriope.

My area of NJ and particularly neighborhoods like mine not to mention the position of my yard as a sort of highway to different natural areas harbors an ungodly amount of deer. I have a picture of perhaps 40 deer in a neighbors yard. My blue Hollie’s are stripped each year but they come back pretty well, theyre in sun but haven’t grown taller than a few feet in quite some years. Hollies in general are tough, they’ve eaten my dragon lady and even my American holly sapling which I should have fenced in. My absolute dream would be an American holly border but it’s just so slow growing. The deer definitely eat arborvitae even the green giant variety which are supposed to be more resilient but I figure in a handful of years they’ll be established and tall enough that even if I don’t net them for the winter it won’t matter if the deer graze the bottom 5 feet. I’d like to do the sort of screen with a variety of different colored and textured evergreens with the occasional deciduous shrub and tree and perennial but so many things just grow so slowly. Like the size blue spruce I’d buy would take 10-15 years I’d imagine to even be respectable maybe. Whereas green giants can reliably grow 2.5 feet a year and all I’d need are like 7 for $15-30 at Home Depot. Plus I could add shrubs in front of them over time. Norway spruces I believe grow fast but their width I feel is too massive even if I limbed them up myself. I’m still open to finding alternatives to just green giants though as I feel guilty for how much I’m using rows of the same specimen throughout my yard. Frankly I might even be open to screening deciduous trees like hornbeam or beach or one of those types of dense upright trees, I’d just have to see how they look in the winter.

Again, awesome work on your landscape, very charming.

William, I would also LOVE an American Holly border! I don’t have one, because my property is SO dry, that I don’t think they would be happy here. Oh well. But the Blue Hollies and the Princess Hollies do well for me with no deer pressure. We do have deer in the other side of the neighborhood. The neighborhood is mostly 1/4 acre lots , a suburban/urban setting. There’s a park on one side of the neighborhood with woods behind it and everyone sees deer down there all the time, but they’ve never come up here to my street.

Wow….that your Blue hollies get 2ft tall…I have a Male Blue ‘Stallion’ in about 6-7 hrs of sun and it’s massive and very vigorous. I have to keep pruning it back it’s above the gutter of our Cape. The Hollies in part sun/shade, are not as vigorous or as large. But….I guess I would take a 2 ft tall Hollie then none at all. [g] I really like them. I suppose you could think of them as a new hybrid dwarf? [g] Have you ever tried Liquid Fence? A gardener friend of mine who gets a lot of deer swears by it.

The epimediums are not in flower for long and not all of them retain the pretty spring color of the leaves - over summer they are your basic green. But they are care free for me, other than the rabbits. I don't fertilize them or divide them unless I want more. No pests, no diseases, come back reliably every year, are drought tolerant more than most and are just about indestructible. I was dividing them once and missed one that I’d dug up and left it on the top of the compost pile and didn’t notice it for a month and it was still perfectly fine. I planted it in the ground and it didn’t miss a beat.

The mistake I made in the beginning was buying only those that clump. I am always nervous about plants that get away from you. Under my Maples, what really worked the best once I started getting them, were those that were runners and would travel. They traveled just enough and didn’t go crazy. And they don’t reseed or produce berries. I used to buy them from a nursery that just sold those and actually was involved in traveling to collect them. But, I think they sold it recently and I’m going to have to figure out a new source if I buy any more. They are not cheap, though I’ve bought some for $8. A piece for a small 4” pot, they’re certainly not going to be available in a flat for $1. A piece. But they would be a nice addition to whatever you decide to go with, if you see one at a nursery, you might try a couple and see if you like them. I wish I could tell you whether the deer like them.

One of mine has leaves that turn red in the fall and stay on for quite awhile once the weather turns cold.

40 DEER!!! That is amazing. You have a real nature preserve going there.

I understand the desire for speed. I am at an age where if I want to see an outcome from a garden project I have to try to think of fast growers too. It leaves a lot of plant material on the ‘no go’ list.

I have two Green Giants in pots…lol. I keep them in the pot all year round just as an accent in the garden. And yes they can be had really cheaply.

Well, it’s a good time of year to think through a project when it’s too hot to get outside and work too hard. You have a lot of good ideas and you know your restraints. And if you make decisions you can sometimes find bargains in the Fall sales. If you are on a budget that makes a difference.

I don’t know how long you have been gardening, but, I started vegetable gardening in 1980 and I didn’t start paying attention to the rest of the landscape until about 2003. So I’ve been at it awhile. And when I first started I’d get so excited and love so many plants and ideas that I would try to force it even if there was some drawback to the plant or some condition for optimal growth that I just wasn’t making. In the end, I did get tired of plants that didn’t work out and struggling against accepting the conditions I have. And really, there are a few plants that I love enough to work hard at, but, on the whole, a design that gives me healthy, happy plants that are easy to grow and not being eaten by rabbits or Japanese beetles, etc. is a really satisfying outcome. So despite the rabbits eating a lot of plants, last year I counted all the plants they ignore and don’t seem to like and now I’m focusing on increasing the plants that they don’t eat and either protecting the plants they do, or accepting that they are going to eat them every year. I can’t keep them out of the yard, the effort and cost to make my fencing impenetrable is too much. But it’s working out okay. This year they didn’t eat my lilies…lol or the roses. And I am going to try Liquid Fence. I think there has to be a lot of nurseries that identify plants that are deer resistant. And you might try that Liquid Fence, if not to cover the whole property, at least to do protect some of your plants that make you the happiest.

Oh, and the leaves of the geranium turn red in the fall. And if they start looking ratty in a drought year, you can cut them right back to the ground in summer and they will produce a beautiful fresh new clump of leaves. They do have a certain smell that some people don't enjoy. You might check that out before you decide on them. I don't mind it. And they are low growing and my nose is not at that level often. [g]

Prarie moon- I attached a picture of the holly, I was under the impression it was a blue kind but I’m not sure. I know I have red beauty Hollies, a Christmas Jewel holly that grows extremely fast, a China girl I believe it’s called, compact jap Hollies, a dragon lady, and this kind pictured. I just think red berries and waxy green foliage is the ultimate Christmas plant. My only problem with the deer/rabbit spray is just that I like the idea of things just working without my having to worry if I missed something. I’m in the process of fencing in most of the backyard which I’m hoping will solve most of my problems with deer. Yes so many of the slow growers are the best ones but I definitely lack the patience when it’s a large area or there’s a lot of ground to cover. That’s cool you grow arborvitaes in pots, I may try that as well. I’ll be getting epimediums for this bed I’m trying to solve regardless of what else I go with, your case of forgetting about one in the compost reminds me of some juniper shrub I tried to bonsai and must of have left it in bare bones soil in a toppled over planter for a year and it survived. It looks ugly but I repotted it and still keep it just out of respect for its survival abilities. I like your wisdom on doubling down on what works, I’m too inexperienced to know what works yet but I’m hoping to have a good arsenal soon enough. I think ornamental grasses in the future may be a big winner for sunny spots for me, time will tell as I only just planted some.

William, I can’t identify your holly but it’s not like mine. Here is a close up of the foliage on my ‘Stallion’ Holly…which is a male Blue Holly.

It seems the leaves are larger. I know the holly I have that has small leaves like that is a Japanese Holly. My other hollies are the female Blue Holly that has the same size foliage as my ‘Stallion’ and ‘Honey Maid’ that is a variegated Holly.

I wonder how deer like variegated hollies? In my garden, it seems like any variegated plant I have is often ignored by critters. The rabbits don’t really eat the variegated Phlox I have, but they will strip the solid color foliage. The same with variegated Hosta, they are the last to go. And actually, just this week for the first time a rabbit has cut off every leaf of a large variegated Hosta, but it’s not eating them, it’s just cutting the leaf off at the base and leaving it on the ground. So I’m not sure what the reason is it is doing that.

On the Liquid Fence, I hear you, I have yet to try it. I’ve been dragging my feet, but I am definitely going to try it next season. This year, the damage has been acceptable and I’ve resigned myself to the rabbits being here and they have to eat, so I’m trying to find the happy medium. And wondering if I can leave some plants for them to eat and spray the plants I really don’t want to lose. Because they will eat some plants out of existence.

You are going to fence in? The fence to exclude deer has to be pretty high, right? At least you don't have to worry about them digging under a fence.

That is a funny story about your juniper. I love that you pot it up and keep it even if it’s ugly….lol.

What is that in the last photo? Is that the fencing you are putting up? I like the open ness of it. Which you can have with deer, right? It wouldn’t keep out a rabbit…lol.

But what tree is that?

Just a few more photos might be of interest....

This is the spring foliage on one epimedium and this one has actually kept a lot of that color over the summer. And here it is planted with Hellebores on the Right. Those bloom in the spring for a long bloom period and then the rest of the season they are foliage as you see.

Here is another groundcover that I use, it's Lamium 'Orchid Frost' It does spread and has a fair bloom period. Covers a good bit of ground but some weeds will poke through. Gets a couple of hours sun there? It does start to suffer in drought and will lose a lot of foliage but come back fine the next season.

Here is a spring blooming Hellebore, these are very easy care. they are basically a clump and get larger over time And make a good companion with lots of other shade loving groundcovers and ferns.

This is a variety of Japanese Fern, called 'Ghost' I'm very fond of this and it has been a great performer for me. I also have divided it and used it in a number of areas around the garden.

Here is a photo of the Vinca bed in the year we had the longest dry period. I just couldn't keep up with the watering. You can see that the epimedium is not as affected as the Vinca. But this is the first time I've ever seen it wilt. And as soon as I watered it it came back fine and the next year was great.

The two Geraniums that were recommended by others, are this ....and it does bloom but I have it in a lot of shade and it basically doesn't. It hasn't spread much either. Mine are Cranesbill [Geranium] cultivars 'Biokovo' [light color] and 'Karmina' [pink]

This is one of my Epimedium that is under my Maple in the Vinca bed and this was taken in December....

Another epimedium with Leucojum bulb/daffodils/under a Blueberry

and just to illustrate that I am being fair about natives, this is my Virginia Bluebells. I planted 3 plants 10 years ago and this is what I have left. I planted woodland phlox with it and it's nowhere to be found.

Last one....this is that same garage north side bed under a Maple and you can see the edge of my vinca Bed in the background.

William, here's a couple pics of what Vinca major looks like as a groundcover. A few other shubs that like growing under a tree canopy are (Calcanthus floridus), Carolina Sweetshrub, (Dirca palustris), Eastern Leatherwood, and Clethra. I'm not sure if Summersweet, (Itea) likes shade also.

Vinca major, and Sedum sarmentosum. The fastest spreading Sedum ime. I love the contrast in color and texture. The glaucus Vinca against the yellowish green Sedum.

It does a good job of keeping Creeping Charlie out, but Charlie still can sneak in, but he can't get a foothold. Some flowers like Rudbeckia hirta and Eupatorium serotinum can still poke through.

I have a bed roughly the same size as yours and I added several native species. It's a wild look, but that's what I was going for. It does need some serious tweaking.

This other side has this bare zone that is presently filled with Creeping Charlie, Glechoma hederacea. I've removed all the CC twice, and all these came back, from root fragments or soil bank seeds. I'm adding alternative ground covers that will hopefully discourage the Creeping Charlie. Enchanter's Nightshade, Self Heal, Vitus, Virginia Creeper. Clearweed.

I have not had the pleasure of Creeping Charlie in my garden, but I have had a weed that I couldn't get rid of that overtook a 25ft vegetable garden to the degree I stopped growing vegetables there, because everything I tried didn't help. What I did to regain that area, was I took a piece of heavy plastic that we had left over from a skating rink for the kids and covered that area over for a solid year. It was clear plastic and had no holes in it, and it was a hot summer, so I guess it solarized it. I never saw that weed again - witch grass was what it was. If you tried to pull it out, every small piece of root you left behind would turn into a new plant.

Hi William,

I attempted your GG idea having a very similar circumstance about 8 years ago. It turned out beautifully. The GG is nearly in shade between two blue spruces, replacing a dead EWP. The great thing about GGs is that they will grow in lower light areas while maintaining their fullness. The caveat, of course, is that their growth rate will be slower (which is a good thing considering how quickly they grow in full sun).

Jay- the yard, whether yours or a friends looks very cozy. I appreciate the tip on the fast growing sedum, I’ve been fascinated by sedum since I put some in a hanging basket and it survived a winter outside. I “planted” a flat of a kind I don’t even know in a rock bed that was more rock than soil and totally left it alone and still looks great. Not sure if it’s much of a spreader though, just this kind you may find at Lowe’s/Home Depot. The only nice thing about creeping Charlie (if I’m even thinking of the right weed) is that it’s pleasant and easy to pull up in mulch at least. Though I may not pulling enough of the roots up so maybe not as easy as it seems.

Prairie I did that same method with regular blue tarps a few years ago where weeds were awful and it worked wonderfully. Thought maybe I read somewhere later that it can kill the soil but I may have not left the tarp on for long enough to do that

Hi Jordan, that’s fantastic to hear they were able to grow in those conditions because currently I have a missing tree and even if I ultimately were to wait to plant most of them after I fell the EWPs I’d like to plant two on either side of where the missing tree was. And it’s pretty shady there until later afternoon. I’m curious, after 8 years how much growth have you gotten from them in shade?

William, I'd have to be persuaded that laying a tarp over soil, 'kills the soil'. It may make it unwelcome to some organisms that the soil becomes warmer, but then wouldn't it just drive bugs and worms deeper into the soil or off to the area just outside the tarp? And once you take the tarp off and the soil returns to normal temperatures, then the bugs move back in. That's my thought process on it. And I used the plastic sheet a long time ago and the area was planted after that and everything grows just fine. No different than any other part of the garden.

It was 6 feet when planted. Now its about 15-16 feet.

William, you're right, creeping charlie isn't horribly bad. It was a warm winter and they grew and flowered all winter, and then the never ending constant torrential rains have caused them to grow out of control. Glechoma is kind of a polite thug and it moves around plants like water softly brushing up against them, but not stiching them in and stealing water and nutrients with invading roots. I try to coexist with Glechoma, but I keep it out of all my beds except the bed in my photo. I used to grow the Sedum sarmentosum in gravelly soil around my house and I had to clip it back every year because it grew 3ft. I had a concrete pot with sedum in it and it survived a few winters. I'd probably have better luck with keeping the Creeping Charlie away if I gave it a weekly scuffle with a French hoe. 😂

Using Virginia Creeper as a groundcover here. I was hoping it would snuff out any wayward creeping Charlie.

Upon closer inspection Glechoma hederacea is thriving while recieving absolutely no sunlight whatsoever.🥺

Updating with a picture of the project, obviously looks worse now with tiny trees replacing large ones and it being winter but I’m hopeful in about 10 years there will be an uninterrupted green wall up to 11 feet and the green giants will be 30 feet tall. Planted them 8 feet on center in the fall.

Looks great, I think that will fill in very nicely and give you just what you want. One of the first things I did upon moving in was to plant a few GG between the neighbor's house and my own and now that they've grown in I'm quite pleased. My neighbor is closer though, I'll be cutting them down eventually as they get too big and as hollies and camellias grow in.

Katob- hollies and camellias sound like a nice combo. What kind of Hollies? I’d have liked to do American Hollies here instead but the growth rate would just be too slow, other Hollies wouldn’t survive the deer for me. Really a mixed border would have been best but GGs were simple and cheap. At least until the GGs get big enough I’m thinking I’ll plant clematis to grow up that wire fence behind the GGs so that may be my best consolation.

The GGs will be big enough before you know it, I'm sure you have plenty of other things to keep you busy besides planting a temporary clematis screen... although it could be really nice!

Currently the hollies are shorter, 'blue' types which will never provide a screen, but help block the white vinyl fence I have to deal with. American hollies are going in but only where I need the height and have the space. Once they settle in and get going, they do grow at a decent pace, but nothing like some of the other evergreens. Also starting with 12" seedlings from a friend probably isn't the fastest route either!

Just out of curiosity does your neighbor appreciate the removal of the pines? Not a problem on your side, but they're not a tree to have near a house or driveway with the way they drop huge branches in a storm.

I have this one holly called Christmas Jewel that I like because it grows so much more quickly than my others. Doesn’t get posted about online but I think for another area I plan to use it as a hedge.

So I actually removed the pines for both of ours sake, the initial pictures didn’t do justice to how little privacy they were actually offering between their deck and my backyard/deck. I know they can uproot entirely in storms but luckily hadn’t happened to us, and never had major limbs falling. Their house is further away than it may seem and they have to deal much more with falling limbs from their huge oak trees close to their house. Ultimately I think they think I ruined our mutual privacy and then put up an ugly metal fence to protect tiny green trees. But in 5-7 years the trees will be big and the fence will come down and all will be well.

Funny how a couple tree trunks and some low branches can feel like privacy, and when it's gone you first feel pretty exposed and then eventually you get used to it. There's a nice stone wall still, I bet it looks good from the other side regardless!

My uncle said the same to me years ago, that you don’t realize how much just even trunks do until they’re gone. Very true. The wall is actually logs made up of mostly white pines I cut down from the other side of the yard, and replaced those with GGs too.