Comfortmaker vs. Trane
I just purchased a small 1800 sq. foot house. I need to replace my A/C and I've received two proposals below. The prices of each are similar. Which is the better option? Any help appreciated!
Proposal #1: Comfortmaker N4H5S-COM Heat Pump 3 Ton
Condenser = 3 Ton 14.3 SEER2 Heat Pump Condensing Unit, 208-230/1/60, R-410A, Single Stage
Fan Coil = 3 Ton Air Handler, 208-230/1/60, Multi-Position, R-410A, Single Stage
Proposal #2: Trane 15 Heat Pump 3 Ton
Condenser = Trane, 15 Heat Pump, 3 Ton, Heat Pump, SEER2 rating of up to 16.5 SEER2 and high efficiency Heating Seasonal Performance Factor of up to 8.50
Fan Coil = Trane, Variable Speed, 2.5 Ton, Air Handler
Comments (10)
- 9 months ago
All things being the same, I would go with the Trane system. But I wouldn't put a 2.5 ton fan coil with a 3 ton condenser. Get a 3 or 3.5 ton fan coil. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about R410a availability - it's going to be around for another 15-20 years. Yes, the price will increase as the years go by but it's a known entity, unlike some of the replacements currently being proposed as its replacement.
HU-809979422 thanked sktn77a Related Professionals
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I agree with sktn77a. In general, pairing a condenser with an air handler of a different capacity is ill advised.
We're still installing R410A systems and don't consider that a major liability, but you'll get alternative (and sensational) views on that (Ray, that's your cue. And your videos on the subject are indeed entertaining.)
Your post notes the need to replace your a/c, but the quoted systems are both heat pumps. A heat pump will provide both a/c and heating, albeit that strip heaters may be required depending on your climate zone. The two quotes you have differ in that the second quote includes a variable speed air handler, and one which is lesser capacity than the condenser. I'd recommend a variable speed air handler, but I'd want the capacity matched to the condenser.
HU-809979422 thanked Charles Ross Homes - 9 months ago
I agree with the 2-posts above. Compare warranties and go with the installer that you feel is more likely to be able to provide prompt service when you’ll need it.
IMPO
SR
- 9 months ago
We're still installing R410A systems and don't consider that a major liability, but you'll get alternative (and sensational) views on that (Ray, that's your cue. And your videos on the subject are indeed entertaining.)
Right now it's more about decisions and what is available. As after 2025, the new equipment R410a option goes away, Unless the government rescinds the rules but manufacturers making the switch to the new A2L refrigerants has already occurred.
Currently there's not much benefit to switch to new A2L refrigerant except maybe a bit better longevity in terms of part availability as the costs are more or less what rule the roost here UNLESS, you are looking for most energy efficient equipment you can find. For the OP in this thread that doesn't appear to be the case with the Trane only being minorly more efficient than the Comfort Maker option. (Carrier via ICP)
The new A2L refrigerants are likely to begin a phaseout in the 2035/2036 realm, so while those options will likely give you a longer life possibility it likely won't be much beyond that, but these things are regulation based and some of that will also depend on the state you are in as rules can be enforced at the state level. Like if you live in California or another state that assumes all the rules of Cali without batting an eye.
Both of these manufacturers listed in this thread (comfort maker / trane) will be that of R454b which is more expensive refrigerant option and I doubt this cost will evaporate in time due to a number of reasons, the biggest one is part of the refrigerant is patented, the other is that it's more difficult to manufacture. The other A2L is R32 which currently is only available thru one manufacturer that is Goodman / Amana / Daikin (all these brands are essentially one in the same with minor differences from one model to the next among these three)
Currently at least in my area Goodman R410a models are sold out. So that brand is going to be R32 only unless a company took the gamble and stocked up on R410a equipment, after 2025 it is illegal to install new R410a equipment so time is running out (I doubt this will change). I installed my first R32 system last year (2024)
The cost difference from R410a to R32 is bupkiss in terms of refrigerant only costs right now, so longevity with the R32 is really all your after here and maybe a bit better efficiency in my opinion speaking from not just install but repair also in the years to come.
This isn't to say that R410a won't be repairable for the next decade or so, but there may be challenges to get those parts and this equation may transcend the newer stuff as well due to a host of other political things and the parts that make up the equipment are world wide issues. Not just one brand over another. < Those days are long gone.
Now here in a few years manufacturing comes back to USA? The ability to get parts may get better as opposed to? Rip it out and put in new equipment.
While you have a warranty, that warranty typically only covers the part and in an era of discontinued parts and pieces?
The real benefit to having the ability this year 2025 to install R410a equipment (what is left of it) is that it gives you more choices. Done well regardless of brand you could skip a generation of equipment that is estimated to come in the 2036 time frame.
The odds game... usually with in the first 3 years if not then certainly by year 8. In my opinion brand has little to do with it.
I installed another R410a unit just a few weeks ago... it's more about what is available & cost versus anything else and the possibility for some who may be in the cusp of moving or ??
I just present options with the facts, not speculating that maybe R410a is here 20 years from now. We still have R22 Freon and that is closing in on 20years after the fact. But to repair this option? It may be more of a waste than a benefit.
The thought of one brand being better than another? no, those days are long gone in the era of replacing refrigerants like old stinky underwear.
I service the Katy, Texas area.
If this refrigerant phase out raises questions I discuss at length what is after 2025 or after the scraps of R410a run out will be your options.
This video embedded below is a 5 part series that discusses this issue of refrigerant changes at length for the HVAC market. Each section is about 30 to 40 minutes long. There is a 6 part to this series that is not attached to this play thru that talks more about the discovery of PFAS component of R454b and what they will allow all the while knowing PFAS chemicals are bad.HU-809979422 thanked Austin Air Companie HU-809979422
Original Author9 months agoThanks for the video. It helps. I also just received a proposal for $9,200 below using R454B that I'm looking at.
Goodman
GLZS4BA3610A
-GLZS4B Series
-Split System Heat Pump
-Single-Stage
-10 Year Limited Parts WarrantyGoodman
AMST36CU1300A
- AMST Series
- Multi-Position Air Handler
-Single-Stage
-10 Year Limited Parts Warranty- 9 months ago
Seems a bit steep for a bottom-of-the-line, single stage Goodman. How much were the other two quotes?
- 9 months ago
Goodman is R32 only, charging with the wrong refrigerant is going to be a big mess.
In my opinion R32 is the better choice with an assortment of cons, and higher GWP. (675) Single component refrigerant no glide easier to manufacture which cost wise later will be important. It's better tested with well over 100 million units worldwide.
R454b is patented 2 part refrigerant, has a bit more glide than R410a and contains PFAS chemicals which are known to be bad for the environment. A bit lower GWP than R32 around the 466 mark. As far as I know right now Goodman / Amana / Daikin are the only R32 choice. That may change in the future? HVAC is always about what is next.
The pressence of glide: what it means more or less is under a heavy load the unit will not perform properly typically after a repair involving the refrigerant circuit in which all the costly refrigerant isn't pulled out and replaced with virgin (new) refrigerant IF a refrigerant is susceptible to glide problems. Heavy load for most areas is going to be around 95F OAT.
So all this being said, neither of these new refrigerants get to the lower under 350 GWP by 2036 so quite easily to make the assumption another phase out is coming... and if you consume too many PFAS chemicals you and everyone else winds up with liver cancer or other issues will not see temps rise 1.5C by 2050. (They claim victory at your expense)
The new units will eventually leak all the refrigerant out, not a matter of if but when. What makes this situation even more beneficial is that due to the mitigation controls you won't be able to get instant gratification of recharging the unit as in mitigation mode nothing runs except the blower. So no more gas no go bandits in your future.
If you defeat the mitigation controls, maybe your house burns down. Fun times.HU-809979422 thanked Austin Air Companie - 9 months ago
I also just received a proposal for $9,200 below using R454B
Does the proposal actually say R454B refrigerant? Here is the Goodman web page for the GLZS4B series heat pump. I would be concerned about a HVAC contractor who cannot state the correct refrigerant on a proposal. In my opinion the proposal should describe what has to be done to follow the code requirements for installing equipment A2L refrigerant. You don't want a contractor who has never done this type installation in the past.
HU-809979422 thanked mike_home
mike_home