I would leave that cabinet. If you take it out, I think you should make the ones on the right narrower to have balanced spacing around the window.

Why do you have a wall at the refrigerator end? I would do a paneled fridge and do a cabinet panel on the the side too. You also gain a couple of inches.

Sub-zero 42" French door.

Hi Chispa,

I thought the wall to the right of the refrigerator is so that the refrigerator is "built-in". I am planning for a 36" Sub-zero.

I will ask my kitchen designer how deep that wall is. I see what you are saying, remove the wall and replace with a panel.

Hi Chispa, I like the look of your paneled frig!

HI Chispa,

I just sent an email to my designer asking for the width of the wall to the right of the refrigerator and if we can use a 42" panel-ready like you have. This is a great idea!

This would solve more problems than you know. I need more freezer space than the 36" gives me, so I had planned on putting a supplemental upright freezer in the pantry. I am now seeing how much room that freezer would take up in the pantry.

Your suggestion of going with a 42" would solve my dilemma; I would not need that supplemental freezer.

One other question: I plan on having a 36" induction range. Would a 42" frig look odd with a 36" range? (I am big on symmetry.)

Thank you!

Sarah

Your plan shows cabinets at right angles in the one corner of your kitchen yet your rendering shows the cabinets as angled. Which will it be? I would opt for a 90’ corners, both up and down. down d

Hi ptreckel,

The plan is to have angled cabinets, upper and lower, in the corner. The bottom will have a lazy susan. I had this design at our old house (the house we tore down to build this house) and liked it. Thanks.

Fridge size and range size have no relationship! You get what works for you.

Here was my favorite setup which I did in my previous house ... SZ 36" fridge (right) and 24" freezer (left). Made sense in that family house, but not really necessary in the retirement house.

Notice I had them both hinged on the left side, which made sense for that kitchen.

This is what built-in really means and a wall isn't it!

Just noticed your kitchen floor plan has a right angle corner, but the rendering has a clipped/angled corner. Make sure it is a right angle corner for both the lower and upper.

That is a beautiful refrigertor/freezer design. Thanks for showing me.

For the corner cabinets, upper and lower, I am planning on angled front doors. I see that the architect drew the cabinets to be at a right angle. I guess I didn’t specify with him (12 months ago!) that I want angled fronts/doors.

Since this hasn't been built yet, can you move the window over to the right or does it line up with another window? Then you could have a double door cabinet on the left . Please put the dw on the left of the sink - right now it is interrupting your prep zone.

Have you looked into countertops yet? That island 6ft x 8ft is huge and will most likely wind up with a seam in it. Most stone slabs are only 5ft - 6ft but you have to account for finishing the edges. I would resize it.

Good luck and congrats on the new house!

Hi Debbi,

Thank you so much for the ideas. Once I saw the cabinet layout, I immediately thought about that window and that it should have been moved down. I don’t know that it can be changed; our concrete walls are going up!

That is a good point about the island. I am looking at Dolomite. I had asked the granite yard if it could be done in one slab. They said yes, but I will confirm.

Thanks again for your help!

-Sarah

Are you using the services of a kitchen designer?
Are you comfortable with the looong trek from fridge to sink?
Visualize the cook 's journey as they prepare a favorite meal.
How many extra steps are needed to walk to and fro transferring items ...fridge to sink to counter prep space,to range to serving place to wash up station.
Consider plotting out and streamlining the necessary steps,so all your prep time is concentrated on efficient focused handling.

Hi Rosie,

I am doing the design myself, with a cabinet designer. I had thought about hiring a kitchen designer, but thought how hard can it be. Now, I know. In hindsight…..

I will take a look at the layout and distances. Thank you for the feedback!

Agree, move the dishwasher.

Agree, no angled corner cabinets.

The cabinet above the window is personal preference. I would choose to keep it for dish storage, but I would also have a dish drawer in the island opening towards the sink.

Also move the microwave to be at the very end of the island by the fridge.

"I am looking at Dolomite" Be sure to test samples for porosity and staining. Here's an article on testing: link. There's a 6-thread series on different types of counters, written by a geologist. Here's a link to #6, which links to the other 5.

Dolomite can be beautiful, but my understanding is that it could be softer than other stones (like granite) and/or require sealing (which may be a non-issue for you.)

Thank you, anj_p,

I see what you and Debbi are saying about the dishwasher. I will look at it.

For the corner cabinet, I just assumed it should be angled; otherwise, there would be a black hole in the corner. However, I am sure there are solutions for that. I guess I was just planning what I am used to.

I can see that it would look cleaner with a right angle. I will look at making that change.

Thank you

Thank you, Chicagoans. I will do that research.

My existing kitchen has the dw between the sink and the range. There is enough space to pass by the dw to the range with the dw door open - so, it hasn't been an issue for me.

HOWEVER, my sister had her dw between her sink and her range - and didn't have as wide of an aisle - and she actually did trip on the open dw door! It was not good.

The angled corner cabinet is what gives you a black hole - I know, I had two of them in my last house! I could not wait to replace them with 90 degree corners (called Easy Reach). When we remodeled that 2-corner kitchen, I did put an angled base cabinet in the corner, but I had a specific reason for that - I wanted to put a drawer on top, for a knife block. This was very specific to my own storage needs; in my current house (I also remodeled this kitchen), I went with a 90 degree base (and upper).

Regardless of whether you angle the base cabinet or not, make sure you get a Super Susan, not a lazy one. The difference is a Super Susan sits on a shelf (ideally an adjustable shelf), while a lazy susan turns around a pole. Not only does the pole take up space, the Super Susan as a higher weight capacity (at least in my experience).

I agree that the DW should go on the other side of the sink, unless you decide to add a prep sink in the island.

I am not a fan of shelves in a kitchen, but we can't tell how wide the cabinet is, to the left of the sink. If it's less than 15", it's hardly worth the effort (18" would be better).

I applaud you for putting all drawers in the island, but all of your lower storage should be drawers.

I also agree with eliminating the wall by the fridge. A fridge surround is one option; another is adding shallow cabinets that open to the side, providing tons of easily accessible storage for smaller items. But since you said you have a pantry, this may not be necessary for you.

Here is our Easy Reach, just after the cabinets were installed. We ended up not keeping plates there, but you can see you accessible that space is.

Agree with all above:

Move DW to get it out of the middle of the Prep Zone, especially if the island won't have a prep sink to make it more useful. It's not necessarily about tripping over an open door, although that is a concern even with wide aisles, it's more of a work flow and zone-crossing issue. You have to cut across work zones going to/from the Prep Zone, Cleanup Zone, Cooking Zone, and Refrigerator. Ideally, no zone-crossing should occur. E.g., you shouldn't cross through the Cleanup Zone to get to the Cooking Zone from the Prep Zone.

In your layout, the DW should be on the left of the sink and that side will be your Cleanup Zone. Your Prep Zone will be on the right and that should contain your trash pullout (if you have one) and workspace b/w the sink and range/cooktop.

Even if you have a prep sink in the island, I would still move the DW so you have two possible Prep Zones without the DW in the way.

It also allows someone to load or unload the DW ore set the table while someone else is prepping/cooking.

The island's current orientation and the location of the refrigerator make the island the ideal Prep Zone, but only if a sink is added to the island. (8' is plenty wide enough for a sink + a lot of empty workspace for prepping, staging food, rolling out dough, etc.). This is assuming you like to prep facing people and not a wall. (You spend the most time & work prepping.)

Stick with the right-angled cabinets in the corners instead of the diagonal cabinets. You're be surprised how much they will open up the Kitchen. The Easy Reach cabinet AnnKH shows is a great use of that space.

Keep in mind that open cabinets means always keeping everything neat, uncluttered, and "pretty". It also means having to wash any dishes you put there before using them unless you use them all every day. Dust, grease, etc., will quickly settle on them. Prepare to dust/clean at least weekly. If it matters to you, know that open shelving has had its moment and is now losing favor as people realize how much upkeep there is. Personally, I'm against anything that adds extra cleaning!

Glass doors may give you a more open feel, but I would get seeded or other obscuring glass so it's not another place where you have to curate what you put in the cabinets.

For the corner base - either put in a corner susan (super or lazy) or void the corner and put in wider drawer bases on each side. Voiding will require 3" of filler on each side of the corner to ensure all drawers/doors open without hitting anything on the other side of the corner, but the remaining 9" can be added to the drawer bases on each side.

I had the DW between the sink and range in my last house. There was room to pass by, but once in awhile I would forget that the DW door was open and in a rush to cook dinner I'd be washing veggies at the sink, turn and BAM. Shin meet DW door. Plus if DH wanted to unload while I was cooking it was a traffic jam nightmare. I usually kept it closed while I was cooking for this reason, which meant I couldn't really clean up efficiently. Now I have it out of the cooking zone and throw stuff in constantly while I cook. It's so nice to have it almost cleaned up by the end!

I might consider mocking up the island size you are showing with boxes, just to see how you feel. 6x8 is huge, and it might feel like it dwarfs your kitchen. Also make sure your overhang (including the cabinet door faces) is at least 15" for seating.

Last bit of advice. I might consider increasing the aisle with your fridge. The only way that works is if you are getting a built-in fridge. If you're not, that aisle will feel SO tight. Our fridge aisle was spec'd to be 51". Once our fridge was in, our aisle is now 46" and feels too tight. This is especially important if you are not going with a French door fridge, as the door will take up a lot of aisle space.

Hi Dani,

I guess I didn’t take into consideration the location of the dishwasher, relative to the range. I will look at it. Thanks!

Thank you, AnnKH!

That is great information. I meet with my cabinet designer tomorrow and will ask about Easy Reach and Super Susan.

In regards to drawers, I agree, I much prefer them and will confirm that all of my lowers are drawers. Thanks again!

-Sarah

Hi Buehl,

Thank you so much for taking the time to share your expertise. As you can tell, I did not adequately think about zones. I will look at this with a more critical eye.

-Sarah

Hi anj_p,

I looked at our plans and see the aisles around the island are 48”. Based on earlier comments, I am now going to switch to a 42” side by side refrigerator.

Maybe I should consider reducing the size of the island, as you and others suggested. The island in the house we tore down to build this house had an 8’ X 4’ island, which I liked.

Thank you for your continued advice!

-Sarah

Regarding aisles.

Your layout appears to measure aisles to/from cabinets, not appliances or counter overhang edges. That means your aisles are, at a minimum, 3" narrower than you think. In some cases, even more, depending on what is on an aisle.

Aisles are measured to/from things that stick out the farthest into the aisle - appliance handles, counter edges, etc. Unfortunately, most software and even many KDs & cabinet salespeople mistakenly measure cab-to-cab. Cabinet depth measurements are for the box only; they do include doors/drawer fronts, hardware, or counter overhangs. So, if nothing is deeper than the counters, the counter is 25.5"D, not 24". This means on each side of the aisle with the island and perimeter, the measurement is 1.5" too small.

Also Keep in mind that ranges are around 27"D and counter-depth refrigerators are around 31"D. They will both stick out into the aisle even farther than the counter edges.

Minimum aisles:

• 42" for a one-person and only one-person work aisle
• 48" for more than one person working in the Kitchen at the same time - prepping, cooking, cleaning up, getting a snack.

Are you open to other layout ideas or are you set on this one?

Hi Buehl,

Yes, I am open to new ideas and layouts!

If I reduce the length and width of the island, I could have wider aisles. I have to think about the appropriate size of the island.

Thank you!

Thank you for the tip about the 15” overhang. I learned that it my last kitchen and will make sure I incorporate it.

- In questioning the end upper cabinet, no one has mentioned the soffit. It is prominent with 2 part crown. Eliminating the end cabinet ends the soffit on the other side of sink. Having only open shelves or blank wall would look highly unbalanced (nothing to do with symmetry - balance).

- The choice of a panel end on the ref, should be accompanied by a soffit over the hallway (to match the bedroom hallway with soffit, but not following the angled wall, instead in line with the kitchen wall). Soffit should probably be there no matter the ref.

- The Kitchen window location, as secondary purpose, looks to be a pass-through opportunity correlated with an outdoor prep table. The outdoor kitchen can't move because of the deck stair.

Hi 3onthetree,

Thank you. i am with my cabinet designer now. I agree, if i omit the cabinet to the left of the sink, I lose my soffit. Since I am big on symmetry, I don’t think that will work. I will keep the cabinet and soffit.

You are correct about the window location!

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

-Sarah

Do your uppers include undercabinet led strips? They can help meet task light needs of 450 lumens or 70 to 80 footcandles at the counter for work zones. A hood can have lights. 4" recessed cans located 3-6 inches in from the counter edge with two offset for each work zone will avoid shadows from your body as you work. With 10 foot ceilings you'll need 1000-1500 lumen fixtures. DMF is one source. Next is ambient lights for general area lighting. The third layer, if you choose, is decorative lights like pendants.

Hi Dan,

Thank you! I am planning on undercabinet led strips. The Zephry hood I picked out also has lights. I am planning on recessed lights, but no pendants.

I have a question for you. I have seen people put outlets under the upper cabinets, instead of on the backsplash. Do you recommend this?

Thanks again for your help,

Sarahs

That is called plugmold. I recommend it, EXCEPT for that one spot where you always have something plugged in, like kettle, toaster oven, etc. I have one spot where I should have done a regular outlet, luckily it isn't visible from the living area. If guests come over I just unplug the toaster oven and the electric kettle, so you can't see the black cords!

Very interesting, Chispa. I have not seen that. I will ask my electrician about that. Thank you!

If you do Plugmold, opt for "angled" Plugmold as the outlets will be easier to use. I learned that here when I redid my Kitchen several years ago! Add light rail to "hide" it and to make the cabinets look more "finished".

You could also mount regular Plugmold on an angled piece of wood.

They may also have better "angled" Plugmold now. My Kitchen was remodeled in 2008.

Good morning, Buehl.

I like that! I will ask my contractor to add it. It’s a great solution. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

-Sarah

I disagree about the "angled" plugmold being "better".

I never plug in anything on my range wall and the angled plugmold was a lot more visible. I know this because the electrician installed that first and I asked that they change it to the lowest profile plumold that was available. I did not want to see an angled strip of outlets when standing across the room or sitting at my breakfast table. In my case, looks beat out function, because I had no need to use those outlets.

Don't just copy anything you read on this post ... make sure you think about it, analyze it, and see if it works for your individual space.

Great point, Chispa.

I was very specific with our architect about where I want outlets in the new kitchen, so that they are as minimally visible as possible.

I get what you are saying!

Thanks again.

-Sarah

Congratulations on your new build!

I am a little late to the party but I agree with everyone’s great advice so far.

One more thing I would change. If possible, I would exchange the 36” Zephyr hood for a 42” hood over your 36” range. It is recommended that the hood overlap the stove by 3” on each side to better capture the fumes, grease, etc… because as they rise up they spread out a little too.

Then the 42” hood will match the 42” fridge for your symmetry! 😘

Hi Rebunky,

I am glad you made it!

I like your idea about the hood. I certainly would not have thought of that; it makes sense.

Yesterday, I changed the upper cabinets on either side of the hood to single door, instead of double door cabinets. I wanted to open up the area around the hood so that the hood would be more of a focal point.

A 42” hood would help me even more to accomplish that, in addition to being practical. As you said, it would also have the added benefit of symmetry.

Thank you so much!

i will change the hood.

-Sarah

Regarding Plugmold - it may be an issue with height. At 5'10", I would've had to lean so far down that I would almost be lying down on the counter to get a flat outlet. The shorter you are, the easier it will be to access a flat outlet b/c you won't have to lean down so far.

So, if you're relatively short, maybe flat would work for you. It would not have worked for me.

Suggestion: Pretend you have Plugmold now in your Kitchen and see how much leaning over and looking up you have to do to "see" the outlet for plugging it in. I did that and realized how much of a pain it would be. The angled was great - I just had to lean over a small amount to see the outlet. (I say "was" b/c we recently moved and I no longer "have" that Kitchen - I miss it! But, it was a great selling point - they buyers gushed about it and the wife said she couldn't wait to work in a Kitchen with so much counterspace and a dedicated Prep Zone. I'm glad someone bought it who appreciates it!)

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Regarding the hood: It should also be 24"D so it is capable of capturing the "FOGSS" from the front burners. (FOGSS = fumes, odors, grease, smoke, steam) FOGSS expand outward as they rise, so you need a wider hood to maximize capture, containment, and exhaust.

Ideally,

• A rangehood along a wall should be 6" wider than the cooking surface and 24"D.
• A rangehood on a peninsula or island should be at least 6" wider than the cooking surface and 27"D to cover both the front and back burners and have room to capture the rising and expanding FOGSS from both the front and back. With no wall in back to "stop" the FOGSS from expanding, you need the extra depth in the back.

Do you have a fully-measured layout of the space and a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on?

From the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread:

By "fully-measured", we mean a layout with the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway labeled. See a sample below. If something cannot be moved or changed, label it precisely on your layout (see post in sample) and tell us why it cannot be moved/changed -- we may have some ideas for you.

The sketch of the entire floor lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the home. It doesn't have to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. In addition, it will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen. Label the front entry and family entry. The family entry is usually a garage or side entry, but it might not be. It's helpful to know which door you use to bring in groceries.

Regardless of how you draw it up (by hand, computer, etc.), please be sure all measurements are labeled. (Note: Computer generated layouts often lack key measurements and, sometimes, measure to/from things like the middle of a wall or the middle of a window. Neither are useful. Measure each item and the distances between each item.)

Other questions...

• Tell us about you and your family and how you plan to use your Kitchen. All-adults? Empty Nesters? Children (now or in the future)?
• What appliances (& their sizes) do you plan to have?
• Where are you flexible? Can walls/windows/doors/doorways change (move, change size, add, delete)?
• Do you have a basement under the Kitchen or are you on a slab?

(I say "was" b/c we recently moved and I no longer "have" that Kitchen - I miss it! But, it was a great selling point - they buyers gushed about it and the wife said she couldn't wait to work in a Kitchen with so much counterspace and a dedicated Prep Zone. I'm glad someone bought it who appreciates it!)

Buehl! What? You moved? Your kitchen was one of the OG’s!

So, does the new kitchen need an upgrade?

If you need layout help, please read this thread. LOL! 😂 https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5972404/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-2020-interim#n=13

(Sorry to side track a little @kitchenremodelhelp! )

But you are doing great listening to advice. It really does help to know more about you and your family. Please see the thread Buehl and I linked above.

It also helps to see the whole floor plan surrounding the kitchen, so we can see how the flow of the home works leading in to the kitchen.

Good morning,

I checked the range hood specs and it is 24” deep deep. I will order a 42” for my 36” range.

Thank you!

Good morning,

Here is the overall floor plan. Our new house will be an elevated two-story, with just garage space on the first level.

My husband and I are in our 60s (60 and 64), with no children or grandchildren. We enjoy entertaining.

I will see if I can add more detailed measurements. I can not change exterior windows and doors. The concrete walls are already going up!

.

Thank you, A & W. Those are great points. I definately do not want the kitchen to feel crowded. Thank you for giving me your input!

@rebunky...yes, we moved mid-April. I really, really, really miss "my" Kitchen! And, yes, it does need some work. We were going to wait and live in it for a few months, but since my DH is a Fed and I work on a Fed Contract, we need to do it NOW while we still have jobs. We don't know what's going to happen over the next few months. I'll be posting for comments & suggestions soon.

----

Back to Kitchenremodelhelp's Kitchen.

If you could at least give us the following measurements, it would help. But, I'm wondering if you can. Unfortunately, some of the measurements in your layout include walls and we don't know how thick the walls are -- unless you can tell us?

Thank you so much for the update Buehl. Crazy, beyond uncertain times for sure! I will keep a look out for your new thread.

@kitchenremodelhelp, I can barely read the layout. No worries though, because I actually think you are on the right track with the changes you have made so far.

But, when you get a detailed and measured ”cabinet salesperson” overhead layout, please post it. At least we can see if there is glaring mistakes. 😘

(@rebunky - I posted Friday early morning.)