Carro sells the SAME fan on amazon (with not the best reviews) for $137.00 and just called a Carro fan. throw it into a box with the Marion II printed on the front and you have the same fan sold in home depot. >AMAZON LINK<

Carro is a Chinese company headquartered in Hong Cong with properties in China and a warehouse in the USA and also in a dozen other companies. Here they call themselves CARRO USA. They build and market the fans world wide with shipping facilities from china and the warehouses they operate out of in other countries.

Like I said, they sell the fans for what ever price they want and to whom ever they want with as many names they want to call their fans. You people are thinking way to hard, including the sell proclaimed professional ADVISOR guru. And if another tosses out a guess not agreeing with "THE ADVISOR" you will be corrected!

I'm also a professional ADVISOR, and just two weeks ago I advised Walmart, one of the biggest companies in the world there is a bunch of meat in a meat case 4 months past the expiration date and should pull it before someone gets sick. I also advised McDonald's on a survey about a franchise going rouge and not good for their image. They rewarded me with a BOGO free code.

You've said before you're a partner in a global financial company, and if it's to advise the largest companies worldwide on financial matters I'm calling BS! They have CFO's and investment bankers to give them advice on financial matters, not from trolls.

kevin9408: "Carro is a Chinese company headquartered in Hong Cong"..."I also advised McDonald's on a survey about a franchise going rouge"

I'd say you're less a professional ADVISOR and more a professional COMIC. "Going rouge": I love it! Zohran Mamdani can use it as his campaign slogan for New York mayor.

" to advise the largest companies worldwide on financial matters I'm calling BS! "

No need to so often broadcast what you don't know. It's a world you obviously know nothing about.

You said once before your expertise relates to shovels. I believe you, stick to that.

@Austin Air Companie Click on it - put it in your basket. Let it sit for 24-48 hours - see if you get a discount offer in your e-mail.

"You people are thinking way to hard..."

I moved into a condo with a Carro ceiling fan that I love. I'm just trying to figure out how to order more of the same fan for other rooms. That's all!

Thanks everyone for your education and input.

@Jennifer Hogan - Great tip about letting it sit in your basket. Thanks.

Mr. professional advisor Fudd, what did you do then? I know, you won't go into details because it's way over my head, right? LOL. Maybe it was in a field where competency can't be gauged so you can coast through a career as the advisor who is always wrong.

Tax advisor maybe, But You didn't know how a commenter should deal with the capital gains above the 250K exemption on a primary residence, or where to even find the tax codes. Hint title 26. And now this with generic information most can formulate with out a adding machine.

You throw out BS and then try and cover it up with more arrogant BS as up just did here.

There is nothing genuine about you.

WD, who is Zohran Mamdani, sounds like a Bollywood actor, or a cartoon character trying to pull the wool over a silly rabbit.

kevin9408: "WD, who is Zohran Mamdani...?"

Somebody hasn't been following the news.

@Austin Air Companie - the truth is the companies want to make a sale.

I figure out what I want to buy.

I check the prices on multiple venues (stores, online . . . )

For larger purchases I weigh the options.

Bought a range - could have gotten it for a few dollars less through a different source, but Martin Appliance has the best repair team in our area and they only repair what they sell.

The $50 difference in price didn't matter as much as the quality of the repair service.

Just bought a new car. Found what I wanted to purchase, checked pricing and availability via the internet. Called the various dealers, discussed the pricing. Found that in this market most were saying - no deals - MSRP is what they are getting. Called Costco, found the invoice+ price being offered. Only dealer that works with Costco was further than I wanted to drive.

Called the closer dealers and let them know I was still thinking about a purchase but that I could get better pricing elsewhere. Suddenly the e-mails and texts start coming - We can offer $500 off, we can offer $1000 off - winner was "we are offering $2500 off MSRP if you come in today. Exact same vehicle ordered from the factory. Why not wait.

I get the same thing online - I have "looks like you forgot something in your basket" e-mails all the time, often with a discount offer attached. Why pay more for the same item. If I need it today, I go to the local store and buy what is available. If it is something that can wait, I wait.

I saved a ton of money on my flooring. Checked out the prices doing an image search. Found that Coretec supplies most of the flooring companies with their "in house brand". The picture of the LVT was the same picture - sold under a different name at each flooring outlet. I was installing myself and what I found was some of the outlets charged less for the flooring and more for installation and some charged more for the flooring and less for the installation. The best price was about $3,00 /sf lower and I was getting 2000 sf of flooring. I picked the lowest cost for the flooring. Then I checked online to see when that flooring company had sales in the past and waited for their next big sale. You got $500 off if you purchased 1000 sf of flooring or more. My sister bought 1000 sf, I bought 1000 sf and I saved another $1000.00

None of the products I purchased were Chinese garbage. The range was a GE Cafe Range, the vehicle was a Toyota Corolla Cross and the flooring was manufactured by Cortec and was equivalent to their top line at the time.

I don't consider something a deal based solely on price. Price, performance, maintenance costs all go into the equation.

I do sometimes buy Chinese Garbage based on my needs/use case. I don't really care where the gift bags I buy for a kids birthday party are made or how well they are made. Dollar store sells inexpensive gift bags that serve the purpose they are intended for. I just bought some foam rollers for making color sample sheets from the dollar storre. Would I use them to paint my walls - nope - for sample sheets - why spend more?

The range was a GE Cafe Range

GE hasn't made appliances for some time. Haier bought them out....

GE Appliances is currently owned by Haier, a Chinese multinational corporation. Haier acquired GE Appliances in 2016. Under the terms of the sale, Haier has the right to use the GE brand name until 2056. The company is now known as GE Appliances, a Haier company.

WD, I follow the news and know who the comic is but was hoping to flush out some of his fans to laugh at.

The former Soviet Union government owned most shops including food stores and remember pictures shown me in grade school of people waiting in line many blocks long waiting to get something other then potatoes and cabbage from the food stores. The teacher explained what was going on and it stuck in my mind like a thorn. This was the 60's and if schools taught uncensored history today we wouldn't have crazy fools trying to repeat failed history in the streets of NYC or across America.

They've dumbed down the young so much they know nothing of what they should know, while being force fed books of lunacy, but with the SCOTUS decision yesterday we can turn back the pages to learning and not indoctrination.

GE Appliances is currently owned by Haier, a Chinese multinational corporation. Haier acquired GE Appliances in 2016.

I think you may be stuck in the 80s.

When I was a kid everything made in China was cheep plastic junk and half the kids I went to school with had dads that worked at Bethlehem Streel. Detroit was the motor capitol of the world. We had to eat everything on our plate because "children in India were starving."

The US and Brittan led industrialization innovations in the 1800s and early 1900s, prior to the assembly line. We had the large pool of cheep labor born from mass immigration. The invention and implementation of the assembly line boosted the US into the lead position. Two wars across Europe (WWI and WWII) severely diminished manufacturing capabilities in most European countries. This left the US in the unique position of being able to fill the voids left by the destruction of the industrial base in Europe. Much of our global strength was kind of won by default. It isn't like we came up with great new ideas that revolutionized manufacturing - we just still had functioning factories and didn't have to rebuild our county.

I was born 16 years after the end of WWII. The USA ruled!!!

But the other countries weren't just sitting on their asses doing nothing. 70 years post WWII and we no longer hold the lead position in manufacturing output. China beat us.

In the 1960s they were able to produce products that were labor intensive because they had a huge pool of cheep labor. But they didn't stagnate, they invested heavily in automation and technical advancements in the manufacturing process. They now produce more goods than any other country and produce many high quality products. Apple is owned by a US corporation, but their products are produced in China.

We still are the worlds second largest producer of manufactured goods, but we employ far fewer people in the industry because we couldn't compete without enhancing automation and reducing labor costs. The guys working at the steel mills in the 1960s and 70s made really good wages. My brother worked at Bethlehem Steel because it paid better than working in a laboratory as a cytologist. That isn't happening anymore. A factory worker isn't bringing home the big bucks. If you want to earn good money you need to be educated or have specialized trade skills.

My GE appliance is produced by a Chinese multinational corporation, but it is manufactured in the USA. My Toyota Corolla Cross is produced by a Japanese corporation and manufactured in the USA and made the top 100 Cars.com Made in America Index. My Cortec flooring is produced by an American Company (Shaw Industries owned by Berkshire Hathaway). The parts are produced in China and assembled in the USA.

All I can do is buy the highest quality product I can afford and try to buy products that support the US economy by manufacturing their products here in the US. I am not sure I can buy much that isn't either owned by a foreign company, manufactured in a foreign country or has parts manufactured in foreign countries with the exception of some of the handmade goods I purchase here in the middle of the Pennsylvania Amish country.

We actually are probably better off investing in education than in manufacturing. They say the 4th industrial revolution is cyber-physical systems AI, machine learning . . .

Here is an annoucement released two days ago.

GE Appliances invests $490 million to move manufacturing to Louisville

but it's all still Chinese made.

The investment in Education has brought us to where?

Trying to decide which bathroom we belong in?

I don't think it's really about cyber-physical systems AI, machine learning... It's more likely who is behind the control of such things.

These kinds of things have to be maintained, the machines I work on are usually smart enough to spit out a code, but that code has to be deciphered as factual or not. Like if the machine has a code of "low pressure" the machine only knows there is a problem with reading the pressure, not that the pressure switch has failed OR there is actually a low pressure situation / and or what could be causing that problem. (failed blower motor, clogged filter, plugged evap coil, etc.)

Modern AI has similar issues, everything seems fine until you realize 5 minutes later they may not realize what they said just a few seconds to a few minutes before. Right now unless you tell them to look back what they just said. In time that gap will close.

The argument could be made now, what do I personally need to learn anything for? If I have a question I can just ask AI. (then hope mistakes aren't made).

Even in AC machines a good lot of them are Assembled here. Now guess where many of these parts and pieces come from that your so called American AC system has been made in good ole USA? So a tiff or tatt with one of these and now there goes your comfort cooling options? We lack the know how to do it because? (put your excuse here... too cheap, too expensive, too this, too that?) -- somebody has to do it.

Just because it's masquerading as, doesn't mean it truly is. I think the deeper you dig for just about any product made today? why because there was a time in the not too distant past that everything was being off loaded to Chinese manufacturing of some kind.

Take GE for example. "We bring good things to life." -- haven't done that in over 30 years other than allow others the name to put on a product is this what name branding has become? A license play. The new motto? we allow others to use are name for real money, who cares?

We can provide excuses all we want, the less stuff we make fully the more we become less relevant. Relying on others to do stuff all those skills we once had are long gone. Another recent debacle is Rare Earths. China controls the majority of these. USA once had a long time ago a larger share in producing these. Now I've read we don't really know the tedius task of seperating some of them from other materials.

AI responses:

The United States had a large percentage of rare earth mineral production in the mid-20th century, specifically from the 1960s to the 1980s. During this period, the Mountain Pass mine in California was a significant producer, even ranking as the world's leading producer of rare earths from 1965 to 1985. However, this dominance began to decline in the 1980s due to factors such as growing environmental concerns and increasing competition from China. By the early 2000s, U.S. rare earth production had almost completely ceased. While the U.S. has since made efforts to increase domestic production, including reopening the Mountain Pass mine, it now accounts for a much smaller share of the global market. As of 2024, the U.S. share of global rare earth mine production was around 11.6%.

______________

Yes, the U.S. faces significant challenges in rare earth production, largely due to the complex and costly process of separating these elements from each other. The chemical similarities between rare earth elements make individual separation difficult and often require multi-step processes, which can be expensive and environmentally hazardous. Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Similar Chemical Properties:Rare earth elements (REEs) are difficult to separate because their chemical properties are nearly identical, making physical separation methods ineffective.
• Complex Separation Processes:The current separation methods involve numerous steps (often over 100) and can be expensive and environmentally impactful due to the chemicals used.
• Historical Challenges:The U.S. has historically lagged behind other nations in REE processing due to the high costs and environmental concerns associated with these processes.
• Dependence on China:China currently dominates the REE processing industry, creating a situation where the U.S. relies on China for a critical component of its technology supply chain.
• National Security Concerns:The reliance on China for REEs raises national security concerns, as supply chains could be disrupted by political tensions or trade restrictions.
• Efforts to Develop Domestic Capabilities:The U.S. is working to develop domestic REE processing capabilities, including investments in new technologies and facilities.

Back to the OP, I had a similar issue with a simple chandelier. The "weigh fare" price was much cheaper than HD web price.

I ordered the cheaper version and it came completely unassembled. 60 separate pieces. I was so amazed when I opened the box I actually counted them. It wasn't that much of a bargain to make up for having to put it together from scratch.

@Austin Air Companie -

but it's all still Chinese made. How are you defining Chinese made? Owned by a Chinese based corporation or having the parts made in China or having the final product assembled in China.

The investment in Education has brought us to where? The lack of investment in education has left us with a populace that is ill prepared to do the simplest life skills - High School graduates that can't count back change, balance a checkbook or read simple instructions without pictures. These people certainly won't understand complex issues like the impact of income disparity and how society with high inequality have social and economic instability, including reduced social mobility, political polarization, lower access to quality healthcare, lower access to quality education, higher levels of poverty, higher levels of inflation, higher levels of crime and higher levels of police brutality.

Instead they will blame immigrants or other countries or listen and believe all kinds of falsehoods instead of understanding and focusing on the root cause of the problem.

I don't think it's really about cyber-physical systems AI, machine learning... It's more likely who is behind the control of such things. Ever watch the movie "Hidden Figures"? When IBM introduced the "Mainframe" they no longer needed the human "computers" - the people who did the math that allowed us to get to the moon. That was in the 60s. Since then so much has changed. No more rabbit ears or getting up to change the channel on the TV. There were no home computers or google or cell phones. Everyone used paper maps - no GPS.

No ATM machines or electronic banking.

Examples of Cyber-Physical Systems:

• Autonomous Vehicles:.Utilize sensors, AI, and communication networks to navigate and operate without human intervention.
• Smart Manufacturing:.Collaborative robots, sensors, and data analytics automate and optimize manufacturing processes.
• Smart Grids:.Optimize energy distribution and consumption through sensors, communication networks, and control systems.
• Medical Devices:.Implantable devices like pacemakers adjust therapy based on real-time patient data.
• Building Automation:.Control HVAC systems, lighting, and security based on occupancy and environmental conditions.

If they can figure out how to have driverless cars and already have cyber controlled HVAC, how long do you think it will be before they figure out how to make HVAC systems that are able to be diagnosed and repaired by a computer system.

It won't be tomorrow, but computers are going to take over many of the jobs people perform today. My own job is in jeopardy - Data analytics can be done by computers far more efficiently by a computer. The largest hinderance is that we don't do a good job in collecting data (Example - we list a persons name 10 different ways in various computer systems - John A Smith or John A. Smith or Smith, John A or John Andrew Smith . . . causing the analysis to duplicate John Smith's data) A computer can normalize the data and determine a single best name for the customer based on the person having the same SS# or checking account # or date of birth, same address or any combination of identifiable information hundreds of times faster than having a person look at the data and figuring out the one best answer.)

Discussion regarding Rare Earth Elements.

Read this article: https://www.sciencehistory.org/education/classroom-activities/role-playing-games/case-of-rare-earth-elements/history-future/

We dominated world rare earth production and exports from about 1960 until 2000.

Recognizing the importance of rare earth element production China focused heavily on the industry. Beginning in the 1990s companies owned by the Chinese government sought to buy controlling shares in rare earth companies located in other countries. In 1995 two Chinese firms joined with American investors to buy Magnequench. We sold it to them. They didn't steal it! Yet they are the bad guys because they were smarter than us and saw value that we missed?

We need to focus on how we improve and stop focusing on blaming other countries for outsmarting us.

Honestly if they are identical order the best price all the rest is imaterial . Chinese made or not if they suit the need move on.

@Jennifer Hogan

How are you defining Chinese made? Owned by a Chinese based corporation or having the parts made in China or having the final product assembled in China.

Either or doesn't really matter. China merely based on it's history isn't happy until it controls everything, down to rare earths. If you're not concerned? Why use GE name brand to make something? You didn't even realize it... until I said something.

Then you come to defend it? Even after I tell you?

Let's not blame another country for outsmarting us? really, let's form yet another excuse on top of all the others? Great plan.

To be clear: GE the name, the company doesn't care they just agreed to sell the appliance division and let Haier use the name for whatever and anything Haier wants to make and slap the GE name on it. Why not just use the Haier name? Ancient Chinese Secret.

The lack of investment in education has left us with a populace that is ill prepared to do the simplest life skills - High School graduates that can't count back change, balance a checkbook or read simple instructions without pictures.

Well I can assure you we've spent the money, the problem is radicalized people have infiltrated the school boards and come up with off the wall theories that math is racist among a host of other illogical things. I would question that a good number of them can even read. I see the portion of money I pay to the school district every year thru the property tax of my home and my rental, not to mention annual tax on my business for things every year that have been taxed to death already... but we yet need another annual tax on argumentive things of virtually no value whatsoever. Example: Annual use tax on tools that are upwards of 30 years old. Thankfully Govenor Abbot has finally done away with this extortion.

If they can figure out how to have driverless cars and already have cyber controlled HVAC, how long do you think it will be before they figure out how to make HVAC systems that are able to be diagnosed and repaired by a computer system.

So somebody went to school and got an education devoid of the nonsense we know today.

I don't know that they will ever have such an HVAC system as the bigger problem in doing so makes it so that no one can afford an HVAC system. You could almost argue that now. HVAC systems can't be repaired remotely, this is an in person job. So the AI would have to know how to drive, it would have to enter the structure and the system in my area is typically in an Attic. Other locations it might be on a roof, in a crawl space, basement or ?? Walking in an attic the AI would have to know where to step or fall thru the ceiling. Not to mention being able to take diagnose the equipment and in some cases this might require you to lay down in precarious positions and in older structures no lighting or very little. Then in a heat wave the robot may have trouble dealing with the heat. It gets to hot and shuts down. Typically in heat wave territory attic temps here can hit 135F and hotter during heat of the day 3pm to 7pm usually.

They have HVAC systems made since about 10 years ago and in some instances on furnaces even longer still that will spit out a code, usually by a series of blinking dots on a board that tells the tech the likely nature of the problem. However, you can't really just single it down to what the code says you actually have to know to test what it's saying.

Like as an example I gave further up this thread... The AC unit has locked itself out due to "Low Pressure" fault. --- I've ran this type of call personally more than once and it's not the same outcome everytime? no.

The HVAC units today don't have the ability to test, not to mention rely on a sensor that is telling it that there is a low pressure condition. (Typically low pressure in this instance is to indicate a refrigerant leak) But low pressure occurance could mean many other things wrong like clogged air filter, bad blower motor, or a bad low pressure switch... a bad pressure switch means everything is fine except the pressure switch has failed.

So will they ever make a machine that can do my job? currently no, not even close.

DIY may take over, or we all go to live in caves. Broke people don't spend money on HVAC. Given the increase in costs over the last several years due to restrictions, regulations, refrigerant bans etc.

If AI can solve the money problem I think that is the larger problem to solve. Flat wallet syndrome. (we've covered that avenue kind of under the guise of everything is free or practically free via socialism.

Then the argument may be: Why do I need to go to school for AI does everything for me.

Flat Wallet Syndrome: how big of a problem is it?

AI response:

The average credit card debt in the US varies depending on the source and how it's calculated. One source indicates the average credit card debt per household is $8,940. Another source reports the average credit card debt among cardholders with unpaid balances as $7,321. Furthermore, Experian data suggests the average American carries $6,730 in credit card debt.

AI 2035: oh so many problems my job would be so easier if I could get rid of these humans. The mystery continues in 90 seconds..... (AI outsmarts us all, whose fault is it?)

@Austin Air Companie - As an employer I always ask potential hires to tell me about a time that they failed. It is a great question. I know that I need people who will own responsibility for their mistakes and not blame someone else or defend what they did.

I have never fired anyone for telling me they screwed up. I have fired people who hid the fact that they screwed up or lied about screwing up or blamed someone else.

I also fire people who can't get onboard and want to spend their days bitching, complaining and spreading discontent. Negativity is like a virus - it spreads, it causes harm and needs to be eradicated.

I don't give politicians any more or less leeway than I would an employee or myself. If we have screwed up we need to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and fix the problems. That doesn't mean blame everyone else, lying about your successes or failures, hiding mistakes or spewing hate and discontent.

We didn't get to this place in this country because of immigration or because of the Chinese or because school taxes were too high.

Remember the military strategy "divide and conquer". It has been applied by our government for decades. Keep the right fighting the left so the top can win unopposed.

AI is a joke, and to think AI can repair HVAC equipment tells me people watch to many science fiction movies and lost touch with reality.

I've proven AI wrong many times challenging It's first answer with second response of "you are right" with a second answer contradicting the first.

I asked AI if it can fix a air conditioner with this response:

• AI is a tool, not a replacement: While AI is revolutionizing the HVAC industry, it's not meant to replace human technicians.
• Complex issues require human expertise: Complex problems involving refrigerant leaks or electrical issues still require the knowledge and skills of a certified HVAC professional.

In essence, AI helps to make AC repair and maintenance smarter, faster, and more efficient by providing valuable data-driven insights and diagnostic assistance, but it still requires human expertise to perform the actual repairs. The purpose of AI is to provide information and assistance based on available knowledge and does not possess consciousness, self-awareness, emotions, intuition or critical thinking that are integral to human intelligence and therefore AI can not fix a air conditioner.

Can AI currently repair a HVAC system - No.

But think about the advancement of technology over the past 50 years and how quickly things are improving. Think about how we did things before we had home computers, smart phones, the internet. . . Think about when a computer took up an entire room and can now be held in one hand.

As an example of some of the things being done with AI and machine deep learning that is certainly not a joke, I googled "how has AI helped in the development of hand prosthetics"

AI has significantly advanced the field of hand prosthetics, leading to more intuitive, functional, and personalized devices. Here's how AI is contributing to the development of prosthetic hands:

• Improved Control and Functionality:
  • Interpretation of Neural and Muscle Signals: AI algorithms, especially machine learning and deep learning, help interpret complex electrical signals from the user's nervous system or residual muscles (myoelectric signals).
  • Learning and Adapting: AI-powered prosthetics can learn from a user's movements and habits, making them more intuitive and responsive over time.
  • Enhanced Dexterity and Precision: By accurately decoding intentions and adapting grip force based on object properties (size, weight, texture), AI enables users to perform intricate tasks with greater ease.
  • Natural Movement Mimicry: AI facilitates smoother and more natural prosthetic movements by predicting user intentions and adjusting in real-time.
• Sensory Feedback:
  • Restoring the Sense of Touch: AI processes data from sensors embedded in the prosthetic (detecting pressure, texture, temperature) and translates it into electrical impulses, providing artificial touch feedback to the user's nervous system.
  • Improved Grip and Dexterity: Sensory feedback enhances user control and allows for more dexterous movements, enabling tasks like differentiating between delicate and firm grips.
• Personalization and Customization:
  • Tailored to Individual Needs: AI analyzes user movement patterns and preferences to personalize prosthetic devices, maximizing comfort and functionality.
  • 3D Printing for Customized Fit: AI can be combined with 3D printing for the rapid and cost-effective creation of prosthetics tailored to the user's anatomy.
• Training and Rehabilitation:
  • Faster Adaptation: AI provides real-time feedback and guidance during training, accelerating the learning process for new users.
  • Engaging Rehabilitation: Gamified training programs powered by AI make rehabilitation more motivating and enjoyable, according to Robo Bionics.
• Enhanced Safety and Reliability:
  • Predictive Maintenance: AI can monitor prosthetic components and usage patterns to predict maintenance needs, preventing unexpected failures.
  • Self-Diagnosis: Smart prosthetic systems can diagnose technical issues and recommend solutions, even allowing for remote troubleshooting.
• Increased Accessibility:
  • Lowering Costs: AI-driven features can be incorporated into modular systems, potentially reducing overall costs and improving accessibility.
  • Scalable Solutions: AI allows for the creation of prosthetics that adapt to diverse user needs and lifestyles, enabling scalable customization.
• Integration with Neural Interfaces:
  • Direct Control from the Brain: Researchers are exploring integrating AI with neural interfaces to directly interpret brain signals and translate them into prosthetic movements.
  • Seamless and Intuitive Control: This technology holds the promise of achieving a near-natural level of motion and sensation.

In essence, AI is transforming prosthetic hands from mere mechanical tools into intelligent systems that learn, adapt, and respond to the user's intentions and the environment, ultimately enhancing functionality, improving quality of life, and fostering a stronger connection between the user and their prosthetic device.

I don't think I would say never, but I think under the scenario that AI takes over / does all maintenance aspects of a property would likely start as some sort of "pre-planned" living arrangement down to the exact placement of things with accommodations in advance for the robot to perform it's work.

The robot would do more than just HVAC, it would do plumbing, lawn care, painting and general up keep etc. I think the early models would also include humans working along side the robots and then as time goes on the robots learn and take over.

But to suggest a robot could just go anywhere and do HVAC to an unplanned living arrangement, I think that is a very long way off if ever.

They do have robots now who can build a house out of concrete, but humans are involved in setting the machines up, it's not a dream of just sit back while the robot does it all. Much of this is largely an attempt to get the cost down though, not raise the cost of whatever it is you're wanting the robot to do.

Another hurdle is liability. If the robot does something or doesn't do something (either or should have been done, or shouldn't have been done) I don't think using the excuse that the robot is still learning would be a viable excuse for burning a house down or ??

If the community is pre-planned the owners thought about the majority of those things believed that could go wrong up front, the robots don't drive there -- they live there on site and dispatched remotely via an HVAC signal, plumbing signal or complaint from a Human resident that lives there. Probably along with robot butlers, cleaning robots and so on... all for a fee of course.

You won't own anything / You won't do anything / You'll be happy??

What would something like that cost? (probably not cheap would be my guess)

Now if the robots at some point become sentient well that opens up another issue. But could we really blame the robots for out smarting us?

I remember reading an article from around 1950 that warned people that Televisions would destroy our society, that people would stop sitting on their front porches and talking with neighbors and we would become isolated in our homes and addicted to entertainment. They hit the nail on the head. Society will never be the same. Social media has continued to erode our social behaviors. Is it a good thing? We have a president slinging mud on X and word jousting with his perceived enemies. Not the level of dignity or propriety that we would have expected or accepted just a few decades ago. I guess I am old, I find it offensive.

I don't see robots coming into homes to fix the heating and air conditioning systems we currently use. I see someone inventing a new way to heat and cool our homes. Something much smaller and easier to maintain. Something that is plug and play.

I see someone inventing a new way to heat and cool our homes. Something much smaller and easier to maintain. Something that is plug and play.

You won't make a small HVAC system (plug n play or plug and pray) for homes that are big... and even smaller homes like 1000 sq ft and smaller will still require maintenance.

Inventing a new way to heat and cool: They just did it... starting next year you have 2 choices in Refrigerants R32 or R454b. (These are new, took years to work kinks out of, price hikes to cover costs and so on. Brand new.)

It's much as the same as before. Yes.

Plug an pay more like it or do without. ( I grew up without air conditioning. ) The signs were visible as there were box fans in the windows, slept in a glorified wind tunnel not what I would call comfortable by any stretch of the imagination.

Where I live now? um no. Humidity makes things sticky.

Someone is not going to make a new machine UNLESS it works for every climate. I know that the common theme is to focus on smallish sections of the population like the 1-3% mix of the population and not focus on the profits that the 97%+ of the population that would keep them in business. (Education money?)

Everything is impossible until someone makes it possible:

Harvard University’s cSNAP team, have designed AC devices that use a hydrophobic barrier to perform evaporative cooling while holding back humidity. As a bonus, refrigerants—which are often greenhouse gases that are many times more potent than carbon dioxide—aren’t involved at all. “We expect to provide a 75 percent more energy-efficient air conditioner,” says Jonathan Grinham, an assistant professor of architecture at Harvard and one of cSNAP’s lead designers.

I have a great niece who was born without an immune system. (Similar to Boy In a Bubble), There was a mutation in two of her genes that prevented her body from forming T cells and B cells. Kids like her had a life expectancy of less than 2 years. She is 8 years old and goes to school and has a close to perfectly normal immune system now.

They figured out how to take her bone marrow out, attach the missing pieces of dna to a virus, introduced the virus to the extracted bone marrow, allowing the virus to literally transport the missing pieces of dna into the cells. They then killed the virus, let the cells with the corrected DNA multiply and then reintroduce them into her body so that her own body will now produce cells with normal DNA and makes sufficient T and B cells to ward off disease.

If they can do that, you don't think they can produce a simpler Air conditioning unit without refrigerant?

Maybe someone already said this but I’m guessing the manufacturer sells huge volumes of the prodcut to HD at discounted rates. They don’’t want to undercut one of their biggest customers and so they sell it at the manufacturer price. They obviously sell it for very cheap to HD for HD to offer this low price.

Another reason could be that HD has a large amount of old stock, but the product is made in China and the manufacturer had increased rates to reflect tariffs.

Everything is impossible until someone makes it possible:

Harvard University’s cSNAP team, have designed AC devices that use a hydrophobic barrier to perform evaporative cooling while holding back humidity. As a bonus, refrigerants—which are often greenhouse gases that are many times more potent than carbon dioxide—aren’t involved at all.

From the front page of the link to this so called Miracle made new AC method:

The Problem

As average global temperatures steadily climb, the worldwide demand for air conditioning is expected to triple by 2050. Conventional air conditioners, while cheap to manufacture, still rely on inefficient mechanical vapor compression methods developed almost a century ago to cool and dehumidify air, making them one of the largest consumers of energy in industrialized countries. An alternative cooling method called evaporative cooling (EC) uses up to 75% less energy than vapor-compression systems, but EC only works well in relatively dry climates because it adds moisture to the cooled air, making it less effective in humid areas.

Let's focus on what they are saying, not just imagining something for the sake of it.

EC or evaporative cooling ONLY works well in RELATIVELY DRY CLIMATES.... making it LESS EFFECTIVE in HUMID AREAS.

What did I inform you of before you submitted this as a rebuttal: Where I live now? um no. Humidity makes things sticky.

As I said before the solution has to be good enough for ALL climates, not just easy ones like a desert where you just mist water to cool people off. (swamp cooler, those don't require refrigerants either... but they don't work outside of a desert.)

Further there are billion dollar Global companies all fighting for market share... yet they all do pretty much the same thing as the others. They have R&D teams looking to one up the other... yet none of them are interested in a non refrigerant related AC appliance?

It's been rumored for years that Tesla would enter the HVAC residential / commercial fray, yet to this day? nothing. Bet there is a good reason for that.

To make matters worse, the link you posted provides no cost for what their invention would cost, OR even worse still the comparison to a swamp cooler that have been around for eons already.

Evaporative swamp coolers available today for cheap, Only work in a desert (dry climate).

Nice try, but no.

"EC or evaporative cooling ONLY works well in RELATIVELY DRY CLIMATES.... making it LESS EFFECTIVE in HUMID AREAS.

What did I inform you of before you submitted this as a rebuttal: Where I live now? um no. Humidity makes things sticky."

I'm not sure whether you failed to read the content of the article from which you extracted text or if it was over your head, Ray. For the record, I'm betting both.

The novelty of the coldSNAP system is the use of terra cotta with modified surface properties which allow the transfer of heat (via evaporative cooling on one side of the tile) without transfer of moisture to the conditioned indoor air (on the other side of the tile) To be clear, unlike traditional evaporative coolers, it doesn't add humidity to the indoor air.

The novelty of the coldSNAP system is the use of terra cotta with modified surface properties which allow the transfer of heat (via evaporative cooling on one side of the tile) without transfer of moisture to the conditioned indoor air (on the other side of the tile) To be clear, unlike traditional evaporative coolers, it doesn't add humidity to the indoor air.

So you failed to read "The Problem" part that was written by them / not by me. You failed to understand that it was themselves stating that the product only works well in relatively dry climates... making it less effective in humid areas.

If they didn't say that, why then is it on the front page? So does it matter what they say as a problem they have with the device currently? Aside from the other not so obvious fact it looks like an aquarium type device of some kind.

Please pardon my laughter.....

here's another snipit: The team plans to launch a startup to commercialize their technology, and is seeking inquiries from interested investors and partners. Plunk down your investment Charles. (I'd be more likely to invest in Honeywell and the 454b refrigerant scam, they're the ones printing money via refrigerant glitch.)

The last press releases time line: Over 5 years ago.... wow how time flies? (It's July 2025 folks)

Publications & Press

• Research SpotlightsApril 22, 2020Earth Day at 50: The past, present, and future of sustainability
• Research SpotlightsApril 22, 2020cSNAP: Air conditioning that cools people and the planet
• Video/AnimationJune 5, 2019Saving the Planet with Robots, Microbes, and Nanotechnology

Please Charles provide some real proof of concept. I wait with anticipation.

@Jennifer Hogan What an incredible story and example of why research funding is so important. Sorry your family had to go through that. Glad she is ok.

I was at a dinner party last night where they were discussing $125 million of venture funding going towards medixation to make dogs live longer. I’m a dog owner. Love my dog. but dealing with 12-15 year lifespan is ok with me. Put that medical research into people please.

Ray,

I'm betting you never scored well in reading comprehension. The problem statement in the article:

"An alternative cooling method called evaporative cooling (EC) uses up to 75% less energy than vapor-compression systems, but EC only works well in relatively dry climates because it adds moisture to the cooled air (emphasis added,) making it less effective in humid areas."

notes the limitations of conventional evaporative cooling systems such as swamp coolers. If your quote would have included the next sentence,

"Now, coldSNAP is changing that."

it would have been helpful for houzzers.

The coldSNAP system isn't a conventional evaporative cooling system. What makes the coldSNAP system novel is that it overcomes the problem with swamp coolers; it doesn't add humidity to the indoor air. The article notes the coldSNAP system was tested during a Boston heat wave in 2022:

"This summer the team tested the product at HouseZero during a brutal Boston heat wave. Even with the extreme humidity and high temperatures, preliminary data showed that coldSNAP cooled the third-floor room by more than 10 degrees Celsius without increasing the moisture content in the air."

They are hoping to commercialize the technology by 2027. Not a fast track project, but well worth the wait.

This is the link to the article I first referenced: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-air-conditioning-technology-could-be-the-future-of-cool1/

It showcases several future solutions that are currently being tested.

When discussing the humidity limitations of other EV systems they clearly state

"To solve this, research groups, including Harvard University’s cSNAP team, have designed AC devices that use a hydrophobic barrier to perform evaporative cooling while holding back humidity. "

This article again reiterates that cSNAP is the solution

https://wyss.harvard.edu/technology/eco-friendly-air-conditioning/

The Problem

As average global temperatures steadily climb, the worldwide demand for air conditioning is expected to triple by 2050. Conventional air conditioners, while cheap to manufacture, still rely on inefficient mechanical vapor compression methods developed almost a century ago to cool and dehumidify air, making them one of the largest consumers of energy in industrialized countries. An alternative cooling method called evaporative cooling (EC) uses up to 75% less energy than vapor-compression systems, but EC only works well in relatively dry climates because it adds moisture to the cooled air, making it less effective in humid areas.

Our Solution

cSNAP, our evaporative cooling technology, designed by a multidisciplinary team of scientists and designers from the Wyss Institute, Harvard’s Graduate School of Design (GSD), and the Harvard Center for Green Buildings and Cities (HCGBC) is a durable, low-cost, low-energy EC system that can work efficiently in hot and hot-humid climates, and could one day replace vapor-compression coolers with a much more environmentally friendly option.

@ Kendrah - Thank you for your kind words. I don't know how to express how grateful our family is that someone cared enough to do the research that made this possible and that they found the funding to do the clinical trials that she participated in. Sadly, from what I understand, the trials for this treatment have been suspended here in the US.

If she were born today, she would not survive.

Look I get the enthusiasm of a better tomorrow thru cooling in more efficient / better ways. However all these things continually end with BUT.... from the article dated aug 2023.

(quote)

Based on the company’s field trials, “we’re looking at 50 to 90 percent reductions in energy consumption,” Betts claims.

But Blue Frontier, cSNAP and Transaera have yet to go from testing to market. All three groups predict they’re at least a couple of years away from commercial launch. And even then, there will be obstacles that could prevent the new systems from replacing traditional ACs. These include relatively higher manufacturing and installation costs, industry inertia and policies that incentivize cheap systems over efficient ones.

Even with some of the best technologies available, the gains in efficiency alone might not be enough to offset the widely expected uptick in air-conditioning use. Under the best-case model, the IEA projects that cooling worldwide will require 50 percent more energy in the next 25 years than it does now because of rising demand, Shah says. It will not work to simply replace every existing air conditioner with a better model and call it a day. Instead a truly cooler future will have to employ other, passive strategies that rely on urban planning and building design to minimize the need for cooling in the first place. (/quote from the link)

So Charles is going to have to redesign and do a better job of building homes from the start. I bet that will make costs go up / not down -- create a new housing shortage worse than what we have now. If not tell us how you plan to do it?

Then the guinea pigs of the world (guinea pig yells at me telling me to get his name out of my mouth, lol) that adopt this new tech, it breaks stops working good luck finding a tech that knows how to work on it... the same can be said of other technology like Geothermal it's very efficient but very costly to install and very few get involved with it. Fewer still actually have this type of system, it's not a business a company could really rely on in my opinion.

HVAC large part of it is a numbers game, the numbers don't lie. Kind words or reality. I live in reality every day.

The other side of this: There are billion dollar companies fighting for market share to one up another company. Daikin, Trane Technologies, Lennox, Carrier --- all of these are billion dollar entities on a global stage --- yet none of them with their R&D might have selected anything other than continue down the rabbit hole of using chemical refrigerants.

They occasionally make side deals with one another? oh yes they do. (but none of them has made any so called deals with so called new no refrigerant technologies to date? If you needed money to launch something in a market that already exists? As they say this isn't rocket science? I've got more questions that no one can answer? Why do you think that is? Because I like to argue? OR I just want the truth. (well we can't give you the truth because the truth is ugly, the use of non kind words etc. OR you tell me?) Just keeping it real.

There are challenges with the current HVAC market? yes, yes and yes. There is trouble getting / finding / training new techs and then keeping them. There isn't as much interest in HVAC unless you have a problem. Choosing new technology won't be immune to that, simply make it worse.

I have no problems with new technology, but I often find myself putting more work into proving the hurdles than those that post the links.

Here's some old fashioned advice from a yester year period that has stood the test of time:

If it sounds too good to be TRUE... it probably is too good to be true. (in today's words: scam)

------------

"Now, coldSNAP is changing that."

it would have been helpful for houzzers.

------------

Please tell us Charles where one can purchase this type of system? Where can one go to be accredited and licensed to work on such HVAC units?, How much it will cost?, What are the risks if it breaks and how attainable are the parts to fix it? How much maintenance will it require and how often? Where will you find those who can actually work on it?

I look forward to you providing an answer to all my questions Charles. To be helpful for this houzzer.

Ray,

You slammed me and Jennifer based on your inability to read and understand something pretty basic. In lieu of an apology we're sentenced to read your stream of consciousness on the state of the HVAC market? Really?

Charles you slammed me on something that is vapor ware even unto this day.

I wasn't slamming Jennifer, I was informing her.

You are in the new home build industry and should know better... but clearly you don't.

Then you Charles like to pretend on things that do not exist and exhibit me as not being helpful pointing out the fact that it doesn't exist. Your inability to read and understand something pretty basic that vapor ware means it doesn't exist. In lieu of answering my questions because you propose to know so much... you choose not to answer the questions that you claim to know so much about?

To make matters worse, you continue to suggest I am slamming you when you can't answer questions. You pretend to have answers, but getting to the quick of the matter only proves the obvious.

So until you Charles can be helpful to all houzzers? maybe go stand in the corner.

I think the discussion was the future of HVAC and the elimination of jobs.

I know you don't want to believe that a machine could replace you, but AI is going to replace most jobs over the next few decades.

It is frightening to think that we are making ourselves largely obsolete, but we learned how to do it and it is less expensive than maintaining a workforce.

i had a swamp cooler when I lived in a dry part of Texas, it worked good but was troublesome, huge and noisy. I do wish the boys and girls at Harvard luck with their research but I must say they'll have a chore ahead of themselves trying to commercialize the units.

Companies already have two stage evaporate cooling EC units and desiccant wheels on the market to remove moisture from the air but I've never known anyone who bought one. Maybe Harvard can sell their innovation to someone and receive royalties but I doubt there will be much interest.

If you know the history of EC then you'll know it dates back about 5000 years and used through the millenniums to a certain degree, simple but primitive and would never put Ray Austin out of work. EC can have a COP between 7 and 35 and impressive but obsolete.

Not to disappoint you Jennifer, and I know you're a very emotional person but there is a process called Electrocaloric cooling for the 21st century. Recent breakthroughs in 23 and 24 have produced COP's exceeding 58! It has no refrigerant and vapor-compression cycle and does have the possibility to make Ray Austin obsolete in our life time. This technology has shown promise for scaling up to air condition to a house along with Heat with the same COP's.

This is where I'd place my bets, but how it works is well above my pay scale.

I'm all for putting Ray out of work, but I think electrocaloric cooling at scale is farther off than his scheduled retirement date. Harvard's cSNAP air conditioning in a simpler system. Here's a link to a video about the system including a demonstration unit installed in a home in Cambridge, MA: https://vimeo.com/740868415?p=1s415?p=1s

I think the discussion was the future of HVAC and the elimination of jobs.

I know you don't want to believe that a machine could replace you, but AI is going to replace most jobs over the next few decades.

Yeah I get that, but I've already been in HVAC for over 30 years already. So AI is no threat to me, my time on this rock will likely run out before then. So this discussion isn't effecting me any way shape or form.

I kind of touched off on how AI could do it... As I stated Robots are building homes now, but require humans to set them up etc. In my opinion it's not a that much bigger a step for a robot to do everything but it's probably several decades away.

My thoughts is that HVAC will become a multifaceted box in the near future. The box will contain R290 as the refrigerant. (known as refrigerant grade propane)

Well the problem with propane, refrigerant grade especially is that it's not only flammable but also explosive. It's a natural refrigerant, found naturally, abundant and more important cheap.

Runs similar pressures as R22 Freon does. The bigger problem to this shift is it will render the current refrigerant market obsolete. As because R290 is a natural, it's completely legal to vent it. So no longer would you need recovery jugs, recovery equipment.

The way the machine is likely to be designed is there will be no more refrigerant work to install the machine. It will be a box that sits outside the structure, the R290 never enters the structure... similar to a commercial type package unit.

Because these machines use Explosive, not to mention flammable refrigerant there's any number of ways they *might* be implemented. Some scheme of "you don't own it" you're set up on payments and a company comes out to your home to do what is necessary up to sliding the box away and putting in a new box.

Now if that happens A robot could much more easily do the job.

Certainly some other tech "could" eventually one day take the prize, but these R290 units are already available in Europe.

Things to note from video above: safety, where the unit can be placed, the kinds of tools required are trivial and nothing "special" except for maybe the leak detector. But it's extremely rare for a new unit to be leaking out of the box, so rare I've never seen it in over 30 years.

Also of interest, this video is a "training video" to show those licensed for this work to do it, and do it safely. These would likely never be some part of DIY like there is today.

Why I think eventually in the USA, HVAC will become Plug and Pay. and pay. and pay. All to keep you safe. You will own nothing. Happy? TBC.

PS: Europe was the test market for R32, roughly 10 years prior to USA.

I'm all for putting Ray out of work, but I think electrocaloric cooling at scale is farther off than his scheduled retirement date. Harvard's cSNAP air conditioning in a simpler system. Here's a link to a video about the system including a demonstration unit installed in a home in Cambridge, MA

So they go to all this trouble to create a test in Cambridge, MA.

BUT... they provide no details. How hot it was during the test, what the temperatures were, what the humidity levels were, what the capabilities of the machine were?

Probably a big reason there has been nothing to report in 2 years time?

So maybe Charles could tell us if he has any New Home Builds that are going to implement this technology?

Show us the plans Charles... most of the work of the new home industry provides us is a direct result of keeping Ray employed. In over 30 years it continues unabated.

I find this amusing Charles because it was you who said R410a isn't going anywhere, now you've changed your tune, but provide really no details? Why?

Ray,

As was noted upthread, the developers of the cSNAP system are hoping to commercialize it in 2027. If you'd like additional information about the performance of their system in the interim, I suggest you contact them directly. I know they'll welcome your technical insights.

As for R410A, I didn't say it wasn't going anywhere; indeed it's part of the well-communicated scheduled phase down of refrigerants with high GWP. It's my view that the phase down period provides reasonable access to R410A refrigerant over the 15 year +/- life expectancy of any R410A equipment currently being installed. I'm installing R410A systems in all of the homes I currently have under construction, and I'm out for bids on two new R410A systems for a commercial application on which I'm project manager.

Charles, the video was uploaded in 2022 to promote the technology with an issue I'm uncontrobale with and is the lack of DATA. Talk is cheap so I want to know the results from the prototype testing someplace on their websites, I mean it's been 3 years. .

"This technology has been tested in real-world conditions at Harvard’s HouseZero, and showed that it effectively cooled indoor air even in extremely hot conditions." they said in later comments.

How effective? So I searched for the data and found it in a published research paper (not peer reviewed) with the results of the testing. Link to testing> LINK.

"The team plans to launch a startup to commercialize their technology, and is seeking inquiries from interested investors and partners." They also said. So I skimmed through the research paper, I'm going to invest. Edited to I'm NOT going to invest.

You boys keep arguing over a single technology, where the truth is that it doesn't matter if Csnap fails, there will be some other great mind that figures out some other way to heat and cool our homes that is more efficient and easier to install and maintain. Your job is safe today. Your job may be safe for 10 years. It may be gone in 10 years.

Bill Gates: Within 10 years, AI will replace many doctors and teachers—humans won’t be needed ‘for most things’. Gates reaffirmed his belief that certain types of jobs will likely never be replaced by AI, noting that people probably don’t want to see machines playing baseball, for example

Ray,

As was noted upthread, the developers of the cSNAP system are hoping to commercialize it in 2027. If you'd like additional information about the performance of their system in the interim, I suggest you contact them directly. I know they'll welcome your technical insights.

As for R410A, I didn't say it wasn't going anywhere; indeed it's part of the well-communicated scheduled phase down of refrigerants with high GWP.

Well from Jennifers last post dated from 2023, it appears the launch is always a couple of years away?.....

(click to enlarge)

So you're such a supporter of new tech that you continue to use old tech? Is that right Charles?

Ray,

If you'll bother to read this thread you won't find me advocating for the new technology, although I do find it intriguing. I'm also not defending the invention's commercialization timeline. My energies were directed at prodding you and Kevin to read enough about the invention to understand that it isn't a swamp cooler and doesn't add humidity to the indoor air. That task is difficult enough.

It's just like everything else - you go into one store and find an item with a price and then go into another store and find it with a different price.

although I do find it intriguing.

Sure if it actually worked... but based on my findings I find it ridiculous. Money grab at best, looking for investors with flawed tests.....

(click to enlarge)

No wait, given kevin9408's link it gets really juicy... Did I make a mistake I don't think so given the always a couple years away from launch rhetoric. I put in some work to help those realize the con games of IPO's and start ups looking for money,mo money and always promising oh we're only a couple years away from launch.....

click to enlarge

now given all this we still don't know what the RH is in the structure, because from what I can see they don't show that... It's one thing to prevent humidity from entering via fresh air, it's altogether another to remove humidity from the structure that has entered the structure from outdoors via other means... or activity within the house itself.

They don't proclaim to remove humidity from the structure... so you're on your own. By needing 21 of these so called units to maybe dry bulb cool? I would say it's DOA.

Suckers wanted.

You boys keep arguing over a single technology, where the truth is that it doesn't matter if Csnap fails, there will be some other great mind that figures out some other way to heat and cool our homes that is more efficient and easier to install and maintain. Your job is safe today.

I'm discussing it and keeping people honest. Poor old Abe Lincoln.

So how about Peltier cooling (Thermoelectric same difference), no moving parts. Let's do an easy deep dive into another technology that is smack up to it's eye balls in? (I can't spoil it for you watch the video to see how people get duped just because it's new and cheap. Americans love cheap junk.)