I'm leaning toward anyting R454b is "probably" going to be a mistake.

Which then would leave "probably only" Goodman, Amana or Daikin. (R32)

Currently there's issues with all but on R32 side only if you are trying to retrofit an AC to and existing furnace, complete change out to heat pump might be problem free on R32 side.

Europe has more or less already banned R454b (PFAS).

So by 2032 we may begin to see a new, new phase out starting to take hold... with a date of 2036.

Been tracking this since 2021... largely ridiculed then... AND here we are!

New additions to the story coming... the problems R454b are having are not likely to go away.

(no manufacturer warrants the refrigerant... it's only fine if you don't spring a leak or suffer a compressor failure, or some other refrigerant related problem)

I covered the whole story including what is likely to be the next great refrigerant of beyond. Coined it Freon Wars.

Playlist: Each section about 30 minutes or so long.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

"I'm leaning toward anything R454b is "probably" going to be a mistake."

Ouch! So, Ray, you're going to have to switch from Bosch to Goodman?

Daikin/Goodman has a technology park campus just outside Houston, TX. Maybe Ray's rooting for the hometown team.

Ouch! So, Ray, you're going to have to switch from Bosch to Goodman?

Well to say it isn't complicated would be an understatement. ( I sell both Premium and Value options)

Bosch is premium equipment, cost more out the gate... so why you choose that is completely different than why you choose xyz brands that aren't near that caliber.

I know Bosch makes cheaper equipment, but again this should be why you pick da Bosch. If you're choosing a thorough bred (stallion) you don't then pick a donkey to save money. To say it would be a mistake to choose Bosch at this point? the mystery continues in 90 seconds... (I fix AC's I don't make excuses for xyz, if refrigerant is costing me over $1,000 a drum and that drum has shrunk to 20 lbs -- capitalism tells me I'm charging you for that and more.)

There's more people who have conflicted "budgets" --- the cost for R454b is always going to be higher... which for those on a conflicted budget --- makes that choice not so good for the wallet as that equipment ages. All equipment, brand name or otherwise ages. They all have their problems, the more you live in an enivironment that needs AC or uses heat pump for heat the more likely it is you will have problems.

I've worked on Goodman, Amana for the better part of my over 30 year career. If bashing a brand is considered a good idea... good luck and I got another video for you, one that had a seriously conflicted budget. (Irony was that the old unit was a Goodman)

I know I go on and on about you get what you pay for etc... but choice selection over a brand name is quite foolish. I digress that the "Freon Wars" may not change things in regards to name brand rhetoric... because there will always be those that choose a name devoid of anything else.

So if Goodman is so bad? How did this one make it so long? (They all break - watch the video)

Stay tuned to the end of the video, I do my Liam Neesan "Taken" skit. Good times! lol.

This job was an R22 Freon to R410a conversion using old indoor equipment. ( I work with all budgets, however this doesn't mean no money at all... lol. Remember I know when to walk away as well as when to run. So doing things of this nature should not be considered free / charity work etc.)

Also this particular job was updated earlier this year as the furnace and indoor coil gave up the ghost. So that interior equipment has been updated to R32, but converted temporarily to use R410a that is supported by the outdoor equipment (condenser).

So when the change happens, the outdoor equipment develops a problem after equipment warranty goes out this home owner is in a good position to economically update this unit to R32 option. I just haven't had the time to do a video update. Also these are skilled kinds of things that you may not find anywhere else.

If you skim my You Tube Channel you'll see Goodman isn't the only brand I sell. BUT equipment replacement makes up a small part of my business. I repair many, many, more of those make up an assortment of different brands.

I've noted cost of parts before for certain brands that are considered premium without actually being premium. Realize all manufacturing brands make more than a single model.

Yet people want to believe that just because a name is on the side of the box, makes it good?

Yep, even unto this day in 2025.

I service the Katy, Texas area. (choose carefully, if you don't or can't choose me)

If you don't like what I say now, you certainly won't like what I say if our paths cross and you've selected poorly. ( I tell it like I see it, some won't be able to handle that. )

Sorry, I'm in a little far from you... Pennsylvania. Thank you for sharing the info though.

Final estimate just came in. This one is Trane system for $12,730. Labor warranty is only 3 years but I would extend that. Checking on price for that. Would be very grateful for input on this last option. TIA!

Trane air handler with strip heat 5TEM6 variable 5TEM6D04AV3

Trane heat pump XR17 17 SEER 5TWR7036

Ray and others have said this in the past and it's worth mentioning again. Choice of contractor is at least TWICE as important as equipment brand. Recent observations that exemplify the point. Air conditioning contractors have convinced parts suppliers around here that it's illegal to sell to unlicensed individuals. That's some slick propaganda if you consider that diyers can buy electric and plumbing which can potentially threaten public safty far more. Most contractors here are already charging R454B price for R410. $300 to show up plus $100 pound. A few retailers are selling mini-splits and furnishing buyers with a list of contractors who can do install under separate contract. $2k-$4 labor for single head unit.

I know,I know they have overhead for tool,insurance,trucks,ofice staff, fuel, utilities, office furniture, office machines,advertising, retirement, legal, license, permits, osha approved ppe, flashlight batteries, hand cleaner, ink and copier paper but plumbers and electricians have the same expenses and charge 50%-75% less. I believe the difference is homeowners can buy anything they desire and install anything they are capable of. With society sucking at the bosom of social media and government increasingly with each passing day, time will sone come when homeowners are forced to pay bottom feeders $400 to replace a light bulb or toilet flapper.

Point being that above being the industry standard, throw in a bit of greed and ineptitude spells outrageous cost for substandard finished product. Spend time vetting contractors instead of polling strangers for brand ratings.

Thank you. The few companies I got estimates from are all very highly rated (87-89) both locally & with BBB (A+). I'm leaning toward Bryant because I feel most comfortable with the company and salesman but they're all pretty comparable and close by. I had wanted a Trane initially but salesman I'm leaning toward tells me their customers that have gone with Trane heat pumps in the last few years are often not happy with their choice. He can quote me a Trane but was pretty dead set against it. I saw a lot of complaints browsing online but I'm sure that can be seen with any brand. I was actually surprised that the Trane was the least expensive price I got.

The pro vs the con.

BBB has been on the cusp before for accepting money for good reviews. White wash as they say. So just because one is on BBB doesn't mean much. It very well could only mean they've paid their due to BBB.

Yelp; anyone can post a review, very little if any verification is needed.

Google: you have to submit to being tracked, most people aren't going to want to do that.

Any other review service is questionable as to what is actually real, fake or?? what ever.

Extended warranty: you pay a sum for these and it acts like insurance that is largely set for time (pay outs based on costs now-- not good if inflation comes back) period with likely a list of exclusions: Read the fine print, any contract has them. Refrigerants here now, may not make it? As I said previously Europe has already banned it. (environment reasons, of which is also why they phasing down R410a)

Much of this is a gut decision. It's often to use a licensed HVAC contractor you've had servicing your existing unit. If you don't have one, well the decision is going to be much harder.

Some companies exist merely to do equipment change outs, and largely the only reason they get the job is price only.

I can't tell you how many times I been to a house a few years later after a deal of the century was made. I just get blank stares when I ask: Well if it was such a good deal, why am I here right now?

We don't know what is going to happen with R454b, but they are lying through their teeth about it being evironmentally better than R410a or R32 either one. Everything is fine as long as it doesn't leak. That being said, average refrigerant leak development time with latest equipment manufacturing over the past few years the time frame is about 3-5 years and sometimes less than that.

I have a R410a Bosch at my house and given what I know, I seriously doubt I would pick the newer Bosch with R454b. I know that with a minor degree of certainty a new revolution may take shape as early as 2032, certainly not later than 2036. ~The Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol agrees with that assessment.

Want to buy another new air conditioner / heat pump?

Air conditioning contractors have convinced parts suppliers around here that it's illegal to sell to unlicensed individuals. That's some slick propaganda

@klem1 not really propaganda in my opinion, most of us responsible HVAC contractors care about folks that have gotten taken in 1 way shape or form, for the sake of saving a buck that turns into a financial travesty.

How is it a financial travesty: they spent money for something they didn't get, they run it and the thing costs them 100's of dollars more a month on the electric bill additional money they don't have.

Why it's so hard... there's more to saving money than just merely the act of it. Unlicensed and even sometimes licensed -- so to suggest it's only unlicensed doing these kinds of things, no that would not be accurate. (think Home Warranty foolishness and so on)

Some mistakingly think that Manufacturing warranty will save them. No it will not. There is no warranty for "improperly installed" anything. The manufacturing warranty only provides a part, it does not pay for labor, freight / shipping, diagnosis costs, refrigerant tests and or refrigerant itself, tool use (yes because tools don't last forever require maintenance etc), my over head etc.

If a contractor recently installed your equipment, that contractor alone is responsible for that job. (Unlicensed will disappear once the job is done, they've collected for it.)

You (the home owner) have to understand, this is a service business. If you're not paying for service, you aren't going to get that. (repeatable business... HVAC land -- you are never done, make sure you do it well to minimize trouble) -- I've been saying this for over 30 years.

It's not always perfect. I've had installation problems with my own installs, not my fault or the home owners so keep that in mind. A 1 year labor warranty provided by me for new equipment install may seem insignificant, but it's not. Even when that 1 year labor runs out, it pays to have someone who can come back and fix it again. It will need to be fixed again as I said before HVAC -- you're never done, there's always going to be a need for maintenance, equipment checks and so on.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Thanks! I appreciate the input. This is such a big decision to make quickly!

I have an appointment set up for the Bryant on Tuesday (didn't have a quote in Trane when I made it) but I can cancel up to tomorrow morning so still can change my mind.

In January 2022 things are much different today, concerning the brands mentioned by dadoes. The units he has uses R410a for starters.

Both of those brands mentioned by dadoes now (Nearly Sept 2025) use R454b, currently those refrigerant costs for R454b have tripled compared to R410a. (if you can even get R454b as it's not widely in stock) -- so using that principle a refrigerant related repair job could cost you in the realm of $3300. (assuming when you need it you can find it / buy it (pay for it))

If the unit in question uses R32 probably more in line with the $1100 cost mentioned.

(Problem? only brands using R32 are Goodman, Amana & Daikin)

To make matters worse for R454b -- I've already said it, Europe has already banned it.

Your household financial health = In trouble. (If you got gobs of cash, no worries.)

I don't make the rules, I figure out ways to work around serious trouble while others just sell, sell, sell. HVAC is changing folks, it's at the door. I started warning people since 2021, and largely ridiculed on this site then for producing cartoons etc.

Make it make sense.

You should focus more on interviewing the installer as being competent and will stand behind his installation when there are problems. Ask a lot of questions and have the scope of the work explained to you and documented in the quote. You should have a model number of every piece of equipment. Equipment is constantly changing. What may have been a very reliable model 2-3 years ago may have been replaced with one with problems.

There has been a shortage of R454b refrigerant. From what I have read it is not due to the lack of production, but a shortage of the cylinders to hold the refrigerant. R454b is mildly flammable and requires a different cylinder compared to R410a. You need to ask the installer if he has R454b refrigerant if your installation has a long line set and requires additional refrigerant.

Also ask if a permit is required for your municipality and if there are any additional items required for using a mildly flammable refrigerant.

" I started warning people since 2021, and largely ridiculed on this site then for producing cartoons etc."

It wasn't the warning for which you were chastised, Ray, it was your fear mongering. Like a Chicken Little, you projected scenarios in which residential HVAC systems wouldn't be available and you projected an astronomical cost for replacement R410A. Now you're reporting it's only one third the cost of R454B (if you're reading palms as a side gig you may want to reconsider.)

Europe has not already banned R454B as you claim, it is subject to phase down under the European F-gas regulations which set more aggressive phase down/phase out targets than the Montreal Protocol.

let's ask AI

AI Overview No, R-454B is not banned in Europe, but it will be phased out and banned by 2027 for self-contained units with capacities below 50 kW due to its inclusion of R1234yf, a component that can break down into PFAS (forever chemicals). The European Union (EU) is taking a precautionary approach to these chemicals. Regulations in Europe:

• 2027 Ban:.For self-contained units under 50 kW, R-454B, along with refrigerants like R-410A, R-32, and R-452B, will be banned starting in 2027.
• All F-gases Banned by 2032:.The ultimate goal is to ban all fluorinated gases (F-gases) in the EU by 2032.
• PFAS Concerns:.The ban is largely driven by concerns about the PFAS content in R-454B, as R1234yf, a component of R-454B, can form these persistent "forever chemicals".

------------------------

So first AI says no R454b is not banned in Europe, followed by BUT. A big BUT.

2027 ban --- All F-gases banned by 2032.

So it's not banned yet, but it is banned? SO logically speaking why would you want to put yourself in the position of tying your rocking chair to a banned refrigerant?

R410a : 2029 is the next drop down. (new R410a equipment now is pretty much over now, only scraps remain as to what you can find, just did an R410a condenser a couple days ago and it was a miracle I even found one.)

HVAC systems are not available now. Problems with all of them.

We've already had the discussion about the so called replacement to use instead of R410a, due to horrendous glide issues it's dead in the water. (It would cost more than just replacing and going to R32) Currently even R32 has shortages unless you are replacing the whole system, furnace, E-Coil & Condenser OR Airhandler / Condensing unit or Heat Pump (The shortage has to do with a A2L mitigation control to update an older furnace to use A2L equipment with, I was told 7 week wait from distributor and that 7 weeks is likely just a guess)

In the USA the only thing R454b has to look forward to is the upcoming ban, we may see that as early at 2032. (look what happens in Europe at that time for hints)

Fear mongering... easy excuse is to ignore it and pretend it won't matter. For someone like Charles it won't matter, he's not an HVAC contractor. (Build it once and forget it, that is largely what new construction is)

Some parts of the country a 7 week wait is no big deal, hell we can wait 6 months for things to slow down. In my part of the country? um no. This area is a 10 month use for AC here. Currently hotter than hell here now, no one in there right mind would want to be told 7 week wait. Seriously?

No we'll call this chicken little fear mongering... makes perfect sense Charles. I'll start telling peope to call you with complaints on not being able to get anything. Go get it at Charles house. Because all I can do is fear monger.

You continually substitute artificial intelligence for the real kind with similar results, Ray.

AAC advice in every instance seems to be that no one should any more invest in an HVAC system because refrigerant standards are continually changing so there's no way to get ahead of the curve and the only recourse is suffer in discomfort. AIR?

Well, I guess the HVAC industry is in a bit of a pickle right now. R454 banned in Europe leaves R32. Of course the current administration's pro "business" bent will likely permit R454 use in the US absent a functioning CPSC!

Charles AI is here whether you like it or not. Robot made homes are here too. (cement mix printed)

Just because what I am informing you about is hard to swallow, well just ignore it. (Charles you've wanted to do that since 2021 when I starting informing people and here we are.)

no one should invest in HVAC? an investment is one that pays off.

How is an investment in HVAC now going to pay off?

Want to buy another new air conditioner / heat pump? (That's what you're investing in)

So does this mean I am telling you not to do it? um no. This is preparing you for what is coming. Charles is telling you to pretend you're an ostrich and bury your head in the sand, pretend.

Sometimes AI tends to be heavier on the "artificial" end and lighter on the "intelligence" end. Such is the case with the information you reported above, Ray. You'd serve houzzers better to do your own research, and cite information sources.

R-454B is not currently banned in Europe nor is it being phased out due to PFAS concerns. It is being phased out based on F-gas regulations which set more aggressive targets for decreasing global warming potential (GWP) of chemical refrigerants than the Montreal Protocol. R-454B has a GWP of 466. Regulations of PFAS are indeed under consideration, but not yet in effect. Assessing the implications of even a partial ban of PFAS is a lengthy process (2028 is projected by some as the earliest date for regulations to be in effect.) And I can't imagine where the 50kW system capacity stated above comes from. Here's the timetable and system capacity schedule for phase out of split systems:

Prohibitions:

• From 1 January 2025, single split AC systems containing less than 3 kg of F-gases with a GWP of 750 or more are prohibited.
• From 1 January 2027, split air-to-water systems of a rated capacity up to and including 12 kW containing, or relying upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with a GWP of 150 or more, except if required to meet safety requirements, are prohibited.
• From 1 January 2029, split air-to-air systems of a rated capacity up to and including 12 kW containing, or relying upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with a GWP of 150 or more, except if required to meet safety requirements, are prohibited.
• From 1 January 2035, split systems of a rated capacity up to and including 12 kW containing, or relying upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases, except if required to meet safety requirements, are prohibited.
• From 1 January 2029, split systems of a rated capacity of more than 12 kW containing, or relying upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with a GWP of 750 or more, except if required to meet safety requirements, are prohibited.
• From 1 January 2033, split systems of a rated capacity of more than 12 kW containing, or relying upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with a GWP of 150 or more, except if required to meet safety requirements, are prohibited.

Source: European Commission Climate Action https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/fluorinated-greenhouse-gases/climate-friendly-alternatives-f-gases/air-conditioning_en

For folks who prefer Imperial units, 12 kW of refrigeration is equivalent to a 3.5 ton system.

Chemical refrigerants have a well-established history of being replaced with alternatives that are less hazardous, less toxic, more efficient, and which have lower environmental impacts as such alternatives become available. We're entering the next cycle, but the sky is not falling.

Well it is easy to trip AI up yet, but very soon it will be smarter than Charles.

These are results for what is the f gas ban regulation in Europe related to PFAS or Global Warming

AI OverviewThe EU F-gas Regulation regulates fluorinated gases (F-gases) to address global warming by phasing down their use in products like air conditioners and refrigerators. It does not directly ban PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances), but a revised regulation in 2024 sets faster phase-out timelines for F-gases and restricts certain HFOs (hydrofluoroolefins), some of which are types of PFAS. The goal is to accelerate the transition to natural refrigerants with lower global warming potential (GWP), but this shift also raises concerns about potential PFAS pollution if HFOs are not fully phased out.

-------------

F-gas regulation "regulates fluorinated gases" that is your first hint, Charles.

The goal has always been to reduce GWP or global warming potential. (nothing new there since 2021) -- It's been more than 4 years and Charles is just now coming to terms with refrigerant phase outs and bans. What no comments about watching cartoons?

BUT AI goes on to say PFAS pollution if HFO's are not fully phased out. (Even the EPA of the USA government knows PFAS pollution isn't any thing good.)

So if it's phased out because of GWP or PFAS -- How much does that matter? 0 "zero"

If it's banned, it's banned -- fully phased out -- same difference Charles.

R1234yf a patented HFO refrigerant makes up approximately 31% of R454b, the other 69% is none other than R32.

------------------- AI Info about R32 ---------------

Yes, R32 is considered a fluorinated greenhouse gas (F-gas) in the European Union, as it is a type of hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) with a global warming potential that contributes to climate change, leading to its inclusion in the EU's F-gas regulations and a future GWP-based phase-down. While R32 is a more environmentally friendly alternative to older refrigerants, its use is restricted by the F-gas Regulation due to its climate impact, with phasedown targets and bans in place for specific applications, though it is not affected by the separate PFAS restrictions.

----------------

So there is a difference made up between PFAS and / or just Global Warming or the Potential thereof (GWP).

If it's just GWP not so good, but no so bad either. / GWP and PFAS --- both bad.

I've already said for the record, that both R32 and R454b will be phased out again. But due to PFAS issues I believe R454b will go down first. (not just PFAS, but also cost, trouble making it, patented costs and so on)

R32 is not affected by the separate PFAS restrictions... so to suggest this is just about GWP? um no, wrong again Charles. (but, I digress you're not an HVAC contractor? are you Charles?)

So then what? is the moral of this story?

Pay now, pay again, pay again, pay again -- You can't say I didn't warn you.

This is where we are at in HVAC land, maybe by 2032 the holy grail in HVAC might be revealed for us in the USA otherwise this is likely to be rinse and repeat depending widely on what is available, what is allowed (refrigerant sales bans depending on where you live aka politics and so on)

If one refrigerant is banned because of GWP, lets imagine what happens if another laced with PFAS starts killing some wildlife, a rodent a bird or other and think how long it might be until it gets banned in the USA.

Then imagine all these global HVAC manufacturing companies have to play fiddle to those in Europe are going to keep making a completely different machine for the US with a refrigerant that has already been banned in Europe. Whether PFAS or GWP matters little.

Unless of course the PFAS is killing something / causing cancer in humans among a list of other known problems this substance is known to cause already. But hey, this is fear mongering, canary in the coal mine type problem.

It's amusing that someone who never took a High School chemistry class and whose trade school was forced to close because their curriculum was lacking purports to be an expert on chemical refrigerants and the regulations related to their use. Your comments should come with a warning label of some type, Ray. They are often unsupported by facts.