So the plans that I did earlier did include the current table area based on the plans you had posted early on. The step down off the kitchen will not allow the peninsula plan that I did. You did not answer my previous question - have you tried putting the table in the living room area ( that looks like a long thin room )?? Then you could have a peninsula piece and the cabinets opposite. There is not enough room for an island in this kitchen at all.

How big is the living room area?? Is it the only living room? How far over is the sliding glass door? Can you raise the floor up to the sliding glass door in order to expand the kitchen? So many questions.

How about this - What is the ultimate goal of the kitchen remodel?? Let's start there.

Debbi Washburn

Sorry, with all of the posts I've made it is difficult to keep track. I did not put the table in the living room and do not have plans to. I prefer having the 2 seperate rooms with one being the kitchen area (where we do 90% of our gathering and eating) and the seperate long thin room is a formal dining room area that we use for holidays.

Agreed, there is not enough room for an island in the kitchen area.

The living room area would be similiar in length and width as the kitchen itself. Probably 95% of our time is spent in this living room as it backs onto our patio and patio doors which includes a nice view. Not looking to raise the floor in the living room.

The ultimate goal of the kitchen remodel is to update it in aesthetics and functionality in it's current space. I have had previous kitchen designers suggest knocking out the stove wall and expand into the dining room, raise flloors, change windows, go from 2 dining areas to one, remove the formal dining room altogether and just have an island etc. After careful thought and consideratoin none of that really seemed to appealing. I am open to different ideas about the pennisula. Some suggested move it down, others had suggested removing it. I do know for sure that I cannot spare to lose 1cm of counter space. I do use the penninsula quite a bit for preparation before placing food on the table if that helps.

Spring for inset cabinets

Inset cabinets can look gorgeous, but reduce storage space. I wouldn’t choose them for a small kitchen, where storage is already limited.

Debbi Washburn

To recap a bit. I do like your redesign of the fridge side wall. Also, I'm thankful for everyone's input into removing the Lazy Susan's and for illustrating the problems with their placement in that original design. I'd probably say my biggest issue at this point is that peninsula/kitchen table. I was really blown away with the extension of the cabintry going under the window. My only problems there are again I do have that drop down family room, and also would still like to have an eating area in the kitchen. An island seems unlikely, and I wonder with that extension if a kitchen table wouldn't be feasible as it is such a narrow kitchen. Might also look odd with the table in front of the cabinets? I'm not sure.

I don't know as it would look odd to have the table in front of the cabinets. It would give more of an eat-in kitchen feel as opposed to a breakfast area. I grew up with an eat-in kitchen but I know thoughts on that have changed over the years. I think the bigger question is whether or not having the cabinets along the wall would make it feel like useful storage and counter space to you. Yes, you would have a bit more counter space, but would it function as well for you as your current peninsula does?

katinparadise

Great points. I do agree that the designers suggestion to add those cabinets on that open wall opposite the kitchen table would definitely eat up a lot of room and honestly, I don't feel I need more storage space. If anything, I can't lose counter space.

So I would not put the table in front of the cabinets. Change the railing so it changes the traffic. Make the opening of the railing to step down in front of the cabinets. It's a breakfast area, not a dining room. If you are going to cram people there then you should revisit opening to the dining room and using that space for all your meals and doing a whole different kitchen layout. I really don't like when people do not use their dining rooms - it is waste real estate unless of course it is a home that " needs" to have the proverbial formal dining space.

The way I see it, your options are:

Keep the layout as is and just get taller cabinets

Get rid of the table and do a large peninsula with maximum cabinets in the space

Revisit taking down the wall into the dining room and doing a larger layout change.

You need to explore all of those designs and see what works best for you.

I think I'll add this alternate view for people to see.

perfect jor

Thanks for the tips! I do like the footprint of the kitchen but again was open to some slight changes whether it be the table or the pennisula. I'm still not sold on that idea of putting cabinets or counter space in that 'dead zone'. If you look from this perspective, you can see it would be directly behind a chair and alternatively would really close in the kitchen. Also what they are proposing would also be interupting the flow of the walk way in my opinion.

Debbi Washburn

Thanks Debbi. We really enjoy having both options of having the formal dining room (we just used it for Easter) as well as have the extra table where we can have breakfast, lunch and dinner. There's really no cramming as it's just the 4 of us and even with this big table we have plenty of room. Definitely can't do the cabinets behind that table so that looks like a no as well. Thanks again for the input!

I would love to get you more space on each side of the range. I know you're used to it this way, but you can't even imagine how fabulous it would be to not have the sink and stove jammed in a corner.

Do you suppose your family could adapt to using the dining room for all your meals, so you could expand the kitchen? I would run cabinets (all drawers, probably) under the big window, put the range between the windows with a hood venting to the outside. Next a 24" drawer stack, a 30" sink base, 18" trash pullout. The corner is dead. Where the range was, put a 30" drawer stack, with the DW at the end. I know having the DW on the adjacent leg is not ideal, but I lived with that scenario for 30 years, and it was fine - and much better than the crowded sink/stove corner.

Because I'm short, I wouldn't like the MW on a shelf - I'd put it on the counter by the DW (there's plenty of counter space there now).

If you feel like you HAVE to have some seating in the kitchen, add a peninsula and a couple of stools.

I have a few thoughts. What if you were to eliminate the peninsula and move the refrigerator over to where the peninsula is now? Use a counter depth refrigerator with a full depth overhead cabinet and a side panel. You can afford to add a few more inches to that side of the kitchen before you hit the window. Switching to a 32-36" wide ectangular table will help you do that without much trouble. Close up the cased opening into the front room by about 12" or so. Move the stove to the refrigerator wall, centered between drawer banks on either side. Take all the uppers to the ceiling. Where the stove is now, turn that into just cabinet and counter space with a pantry cabinet at the end that's similar to the size you have now on the refrigerator wall. That will make up the counter space you lose on the peninsula side, and give you move open space to work around the stove. It would even let you widen the opening into the dining room a little because you would not have to worry about the depth of the refrigerator on that side. Or you could have all just uppers and lowers on the side where the stove is now and keep a pantry cabinet where you currently have one.

AnnKH

I definitely would love more space on each side of the range as well. Unfortunately I'm limited by spacing there. Funnily enough our first designer suggested putting the range where you are suggesting. The only hiccup there would be that people entering the house would have a clear view down the hall right to the stove which may or may not be a pretty sight. Where would you be suggesting to add the peninsula?

katinparadise

Some interesting suggestions that I haven't heard before. I will mull that over!

It would put the refrigerator in an easy spot to reach from the table when you forget the ketchup or want to refill a drink. I don't think you'd be losing any counter space at all and adding nice large drawer bases will definitely increase your storage.

katinparadise

Thank you and thank you to everyone. I'm hoping to take as many ideas from here soon and submit then to the designer.

Shaker doors seems to be the consensus. Double sink. Fridge needs to be moved. The 'dead space' seems to be a toss up on here. Lazy susans and especially 2 that were suggested in the original seem to be off the table here. Also I will bring the suggested types of cabinets to suggest. Really appreciate everyone who contributed to this new adventure. I've been at this house for the last 10 years or so and I've redone the upstairs, basement, outside front and back. The main floor is my last job...(ha for now)....and a new front door is in the works this year as well.

Ooh, I like kat's idea to move the fridge and range! While not ideal, with the oven door opening in the walkway, it is far better than where the range is now.

Here's how I would arrange it:

Fridge next to the low window (with a surround and cabinet above)

DW

30" sink (we have this, with a 60/40 sink, it's perfect)

18" trash pullout

dead corner

3-stack drawers, 30"

4-stack drawers, 18"

I would put fewer upper on the window side - there isn't room between the fridge and window, so I wouldn't crowd the window on the other side of the sink. You could use an easy-reach upper, or just have uppers on the adjacent wall.

I would put 36" drawers on each side of the range, giving you plenty of counter space. The configuration of the uppers depends on whether you do with a larger range hood, and what you will be storing in those cabinets I like at least one cabinet hinged to I can easily access spices and oils while standing at the range.

If, after you develop a storage plan to see where everything will go in this configuration, you decide you need pantry space, you can put just cabinets on the "dead" wall, 15" deep. I don't think that will feel as crowded to you as base cabinets with a counter. Or you could add cabinets at the end of the new stove wall, 15" deep, opening toward the family room.

But with cabinets to the ceiling, and large drawers, you may discover that you don't need any additional storage.

Thanks @AnnKH for suggesting cabinet sizes. Hoping Debbi gets on to give her input as well. I was also thinking no pantry may be needed after improving the cabinet storage. Taller uppers with adjustable shelves may do the trick.

@rberesh73, I have a double sink as well. I use one side to wash and keep my dishes that were handwashed to dry in the other. That way I don't deal with a dish drainer on the counter.

I'm sure you're looking forward to finally finishing the rest of the house. It's always a work in progress, isn't it?

katinparadise

I do the same with the double sink I have now. I really like having them so glad to see others like the double as well.

Ha, I AM looking forward to finally finishing the rest of the house. Originally I wanted to do the main floor when I moved here....but now it will be the last thing I finish....which is a good thing as it will be the most current work for friends and family to see.

The entire main floor needs to be redone. Starting with this kitchen and flooring. I might also redo that fireplae in the future as well. Like you said, it's always a work in progress and i've always found the 'best' work has been done by consulting with a few different opinions and perspectives rather than in isolation.

I would suggest 2 different colors the base cabinets minus pantry a darker color (grey or blue) and uppers off white.. your peninsula and the pantry cabinet will be a rockstars, then you would have wide open options for color scheme renovating around the house.. good luck

Well hopefully the kitchen will be able to be started soon. I'll be curious to see what new designs your kitchen person comes up with.

Please do not move the ref onto the wall the sink is on. That will kill the visual of the room and kill your counter space! Leave it in the area that it is in.

Debbi, my thought with that is it would give more counter space on the sink wall as well as around the stove. But you certainly have more experience than I do!

Just wanted to throw another pic up. I wasn't sure if some had included the dishwasher in their plans.

What are your thoughts?

Just was wondering if there was anymore input or thoughts. I agree with earlier sentiments that it would have been helpful if the designer had done a graphic 3d layout to help me envision their project. I know a particular issue has been the lazy susans and in particular that they suggested 2. I'm guessing their thought was to make those dead corners have storage. Not sure what else can be done in those areas though.

The issue is not having a lazy susan. The issue is having a 33" lazy susan!

You have stated your desires - more storage, more counter, updated, not opening the wall, keeping a table in the kitchen proper. With all that being said. There are no other layouts.

Personally - I would get rid of the peninsula and run straight under the window to the step down.

Ideally I would put the sink under the large window and close up the other one and put the stove in where the sink is now but that is a lot of extra work.

JMO

Debbi

Thanks Debbi. To narrow it down for the designer what would you specifically suggest to them for the changes?

Personally - I would get rid of the peninsula and run straight under the window to the step down.

I do like this idea and the picture you presented. Really helps the visual. In isolation it would definitely be most ideal, however I'm just not sure how the traffic flow would look. I'm guessing like this?

Yes. I would also consider a table that you can push against the lower wall to widen that path.

That is a 5 ft table .

So much more inviting and open without the peninsula

Debbi Washburn

Really interesting. Can't say that's ever been suggested before of changing the foot path between the 2 rooms.

la_la Girl

Yes I'm definitely not opposed to removing the peninsula. Really just looking to make the best use of the space I have without busting down the formal dining room wall.

I wonder how the designer could accomodate for the second windows frame being lower than the current counter height.

Here are some examples of counter-height windows:

example 1

example 2

@rberesh73, Ithought you said it was 3'9" to the bottom of the trim on the second window. If so, that's more than enough to put cabinets underneath. Counter height is 36".

I like Debbies idea, but I feel there is not enought space on that wall (65 inch waall) plus the step down into the family room will not help with the space needed for chairs and table. I also feel the flow is not as good around the table. I prefer the table in the original spot.

I don't like the stove area as it has a small cabinet on the right of the stove, but you are limited by room size.

If you follow the cabinet layout by the cabinet person, the 33 inch cabinet will be very small.

I don't see a really good option myself.

On the left side of the dishwasher, I would not do another 33 in corner cabinet. Just make the cabinet door open on the side next to the table.

I also would not do a corner upper cabinet on the right of the sink. Do a blind cabinet or kill the corner.

Instead of cabinets on the bottom wall of the eat in area I would do a small buffet to keep the room open.

I think you said the space for the table is about 8 ft 6 inches. That is still not a lot of room.

Move the pennisula back to the postion that you are living with now.

katinparadise

So my current kitchen counter height is about 35 inches high. The bottom of the window frame is 33 inches high. Making a counter, as suggester in earlier photos, that runs evenly around that wall would make the counter basically at window level. Also, I'm wondering if doing that might look odd with the 2 windows at different heights. The one at the sink is actually higher than the one by the table. Definitely could put cabinets under that window.....but running a counter along the entire length of that wall I"m unsure of.

AnnKH

Thanks AnnKH looks great. I am wondering however how it would look in my case with one window by the sink being higher than the other window by the table.

Karenseb

Thanks for the input!

My current peninsula does have doors on both sides so I can access everything from the eating area and also from the kitchen side so I do understand the logic of that. Yes, as you've said the room is limited and there are unfortunately a few tight spaces.

Would it be out of what you would consider to be a reasonable scope of work to re-do the window by the table so it matches the window under the sink?

If you go back to my earlier posts I showed you a picture of a kitchen where we put a drop counter under the window. It is still very useable. Also, you typically remove the trim of the window and just go up under the sill. You table doesn't look as big as the table I have showing in my plan.

While I understand Karenseb comment about table space and possibly walking around, I do have to disagree. Yes you have more "space" from the peninsula to the railing currently. But that set up is a block on each side. With the table on the opposite side of the room, you have the openness of the 4 1/2 ft door way as an advantage. You only have to go a few extra step to go into the living room. If you do a 5ft table and push the short end against the wall ( I sent a previous picture of that ) then you have about a 56" walking space to get around it. That is plenty of room. IMO

Try moving your existing table and see what you think.

katinparadise

Yes I think unfortunately I don't want to get into redoing the windows. Not so much for cost, but also I think I'd have a hard time finding a match for the existing brick that is on the exterior of the house.

Debbi Washburn

Hi Debbi yes thank you. I do remember this, however I had later wondered if the 2 windows at different heights would be an issue visually. Perhaps not. I will try moving the existing table as suggested. Thank you

Deb, How wide is the table in your layout? How much space for the chairs on the left before the drop into the family room?

I like your idea, but I want her to make sure she has room for the chairs on either side.

I don't think the different windows would be a problem. The higher one is behind the sink, so a distinctly different zone - even if the counter is all one height (which I would prefer).

Perhaps this helps visualize. We made the counter be the window sill. The depth is less than the main cabinets due to short end wall, plus it provides more space in that area.

The table I had in the picture was a 48 round ( she doesn't need that big ) . I have yet to hear how big the existing table is! The rectangle one is 30" x 60 " . That wall is about 65" or so to the railing so if you leave about 30" on that side, the table will sit 5" in from the trim of the doorway ( which is 54" wide ) So plenty of room to come in the door and go around. The table could go the other way as well if preferred. It is a kitchen table - not a dining room table and should be sized as such.

Here is a picture of the windows in the kitchen I showed you:

It looks fine.

ker9

Thanks for the visual. I see that counter ends at a wall which helps to bookend it for sure.

Debbi Washburn

Hi Debbi, thanks as usual. Sorry I don't remember you asking me for the size of my table. I do remember you asking me for the measurements of the space that it inhabits. Further to the point, the current table isn't a fixture and I'm completely open to removing it and getting one more suited for the new kitchen.

The current counters are 35”, in this pic it looks like they are below the dining window. Is that correct?

I can see benefit to placing counters on the wall heading into the family room. I would not use it as a coffee station because you will be walking a distance to get water. It could become a drop zone and clutter area if not careful but sometimes those areas are nice.

Do you have a piece of furniture (hutch, bookcase) that you could put there to see if it intrudes into the walkway. I feel that wall needs something but maybe not cabinets.

er9

If I stretched the current counter top along that wall they would almost exactly be at the window sill and above the current window framing.

RNmomof2 zone 5

Great idea I will try that.

You would remove the lower window framing to fit the counter or if it sizes out right, you can have the counter also be the sill. Your contractor can get you proper measurements for this.

Debbi

Hi Debbi, yes I definitely could have the lower window framing removed and the counter would meet the still. That portion however would still be lower than my current counter height but I have seen pictures (provided here) of 2 counter tops being at different heights.