Lindsey, there is no question that the job is bad. No way to sugar coat it. You deserve every penny back. Take a bunch of photos of every inch in case you have to take him to small claims court to get it. This guy shouldn't be allowed to tile anything. Time for him to retire.

Fortunately, I have taken pics of everything along the way. Do you think I should really take him to court? That bad??? Yikes, scary. I would love my money back and forget all this. I just want my bathroom to look like all the other beautiful houses on Houzz.

Lindsey, I'm sorry to say, but things sound worse than when I first commented on your post.
As I mentioned I've experienced shoddy work while building a home. Obviously, your contractor isn't a tiler, not everyone is, but many times it looks easy and they want to make the extra money, so they tile. Not fair to you or their profession. If you feel he is getting your house built correctly, and you need to know this for sure, then I would stick with him to finish the house. Wouldn't go to court, I've never known a homeowner to win.

Use a different tile and check with your local tile company about referring you to an expert tiler - they will know who to recommend. With the tiler's help, go to contractor and have him prep correctly, meaning, waterproof the area. Being young has nothing to do with his bad work, don't let him guilt you into accepting his lousy work.

Also, make sure all inspections are done as you progress and honestly, knowing what I know now, I would tell a contractor, up front, that I was hiring my own contractor to check systems as the building progresses. And I would put in the contract that if house didn't pass inspection by my contractor, No Deal.

Personally, I think some contractors and inspectors become a little too chummy for objectivity. This isn't picking on any one profession,it has to do with personal integrity and it happens in many fields.

While I think this would be satisfying and probably preferable, I don't necessarily think we can put total blame on the tiler, for the tile choice. All along the way, you should have been stopped at some point. The tile shop, for instance-- how did they market this tile? And what about your own research? Common sense should tell you not to put in a porous tile inside a shower-- I don't care how they prepare the wall behind the tile, or how many people use that type of tile in a shower.

So you really do have to do your own research-- and that includes asking questions at the tile shop where you purchased it. I do think inexperience (not necessarily youth, but then they do tend to go hand-in-hand) helped get you into this situation. But, take heart. Something like this only happens once. Now you know. So next time do your homework. That takes time, energy, and effort, but it's worth it. It's your money and your home. And as someone said above, ask the best tile shop in your area for their list of their top 2 or 3 recommended tilers. They, too, are not going to recommend someone they know is bad. They don't want to get sued.

I think you could probably take this guy to court-- but that will take so much energy and time (and more money)-- which is probably what these people count on. What I would do, however, is *threaten* him with a suit if you don't get at least half of your money returned. And I would certainly absolutely bad-mouth him all over town, so hopefully, he won't get another job tiling.

And, really, hire a tiler-- not a GC.

Thank you Grobby and Diana,

Yes, I think this is the situation. Contractor but not tiler. I think he has done a nice job with the exterior of the house, but I am not sure about the interior. I don't want him touching or building anything else on the inside. I didn't really realize how porous the tile was, until I looked at it at home. I had originally picked a different tile, but there was a problem with it and last minute I ended up changing to this because it was similiar in color to my first tile choice. How porous it was, wasn't even something that came to my mind. Now I know to be more careful and exam things closer.

This guy is a neighbor and friend, which I liked because I felt like this means he would do a better job and someone who I thought I could trust. We didn't pull permits, which at first I thought was ok, because of saving maybe 2K dollars. Now, I realize that it is important to help guarantee quality workmanship. I think anyway.

I don't know if I should just finish the project without a waterproof wall or make him tear it down and rebuild it. I don't want to pay for more materials, but I want it done right.

Thank you again!!

Two things: not having a permit is an issue for resale down the road. Florida is a full disclosure state and it will affect sales price if you can't prove the improvements had a proper building permit and inspections. This could create long term issues for you.

Second, don't let him finish the job. It needs to be done right. My comment above about court was essentially have all of your documentation ready 'just in case'. But it is up to you if you want to have a refund or not. You have other considerations since he is your neighbor. Lots of things to work out here.

Yes, lots of things to work out. I didn't know it would effect the resale if projects aren't properly permitted. That is very important to me. He has been hiding materials in our backyard and apparently the city I live in is particularly picky with permits and house work. What does full disclosure mean?

The seller has to disclose to the buyer if work was done without a permit (for example) and many other items. If the seller fails to disclose, the sale can be 'unwound' by a judge if the buyer discovers the omission after closing. Penalties apply. Building permits are public records so anyone can find out what permits were issued and when they were issued. They can get a copy of the permit showing inspections etc. The liability rides with the house so if you sell it to an unsuspecting buyer and someone reports the improvements to code enforcement (happens more than you know), then the person that owns the house at the time the violation is discovered has to rectify. That means either fixing or removing plus paying the permit fees plus fines. It can get costly. Then the buyer could seek recourse against the seller. You don't want this to happen. That's why the 'contractor' is hiding materials.

Code enforcement actually drives neighborhoods looking for work being done without benefit of a permit. The reason it affects the value of your home is the buyer has to take into consideration the cost to rectify and will deduct it from the sales price. I see it happen because I'm a Realtor and check permits all the time for my sellers/buyers. It is SOP.

One more thing: if the code enforcement letter is ignored, then they will issue a per diem fine. That fine is quite large, usually in the vicinity of $1000/day. Once X days have passed and the situation hasn't been rectified, code enforcement can lien the property. Do a search online for your municipality to see the process from beginning to end. I have had to negotiate more than once with the city (different cities for different properties) to get my seller a reduced fine so we could actually fix it and close. :(

I am familiar with this glass and stone tile. The distributor says not to grout and not to use in wet areas. I agree, a terrible installation.

Honestly, I would not want him doing anything in my house again-- including deconstruction. I'd just chalk it up to inexperience and a good lesson learned. Find a great reputable tiler, and when you pick out the next tile (and there are some absolutely beautiful affordable porcelains out there- which is the only tile I'd put in a shower)-- question the designers at the tile shop. That's why they're there-- to help and advise you.

Do NOT let him finish that tile job. You will run into so many (more expensive) problems later.

Denita- Great insights and advice, as usual!!

Thank you bubba!

I will pray that God blesses you all greatly! Thank you so much for your insight and help. You have no idea how much I appreciate it all!!! I wish I had known to just go with Porcelain in the shower. But I have learned so much through this and I will pass it on to everyone I know.

Lindsey- I have experienced a similar situation using a neighbor/friend for home remodeling and repairs. How you proceed will not be an easy decision!

You can find "building permit" requirements on your county's website. Not all areas have the same requirements.

I read your thread on the John Bridge forum, and I think other commenters may be interested in the assessment and advice you received from the pros there. Maybe you would like to post a link to it?

Here is a link to the more in depth conversation on the John Bridge Forum. It goes more in depth on the tile, waterproofing, and general execution of the whole project. A big thanks for all those who contributed!

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111556

Bubba-I will check out that building permit info tomorrow!! Thank you!!

Thanks, Lindsey. That was interesting. Your additional photos you showed on that forum were much more detailed and really showed the full of extent of what he did (or, rather, didn't) do. Wow. That's unbelievable.

I read the whole link and agree with the professionals - start over with a new tile guy. It is shockingly bad job you have on your hands now. :(

Lindsey, don't beat yourself up. I'm probably twice your age and I've messed up plenty.
It is only natural to trust people to do a good job. Whether you chose an appropriate tile is beside the point - the guy doesn't care or he would be at the house doing everything to make this right and would absorb some if the cost.
I would do everything with a permit or it comes back to bite you. You're young, the money you can remake, but you can't fix a poorly built house. One thing leads to another.
Think about getting your own inspector, someone that doesn't know this contractor and inform him of your plans to inspect, inspect, inspect. Keep his feet to the fire! One day. I'll disclose my building experience, would make a great book or sitcom.

Yes-- what grobby said. And I'm sure I can easily add a chapter or two or three to the book. :)

Lindsey- The outlet where you purchased your tiles has recently opened stores in our area too. While their prices are very good, I've been led to believe that they only sell discontinued, "seconds", and lower quality/imported materials. Smaller, well established tile stores will stock better quality materials and will be able to advise you on what materials are the best to use. They will also be able to recommend a qualified installer.

With home remodeling projects my contractor prefers to be paid "time and materials". He gives me an approximate estimate of how long he thinks the project will take. I provide some items and he provides me with receipts for anything he purchases. For small jobs, I pay him when the job is complete. On larger projects, he provides me with weekly invoices.

Some other forums/resources I have found particularly helpful:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/ .
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/bath/ .
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/content.php .
http://www.thefloorpro.com/community/ .
http://www.no-curb.blogspot.ca/ .

The benefit to getting county building permits, is that a county inspector will visit the job site and verify that a job is being done properly.

@Denita....Am I correct that, only Licensed and Insured contractors can "pull (obtain) building permits"?

Yes, licensed and insured. There are some instances where an owner can pull a permit if it is a low dollar job and doesn't involve trades like plumbing, electrical etc. She would have to check her city requirements. I don't advise an owner permit, just mentioning it

Thank you, Denita.

A "handy man" may think he is "qualified" to do a project, but a License should help insure that to be the case.

A "Licensed contractor" would surely have more at risk should his project fail to meet inspection.

And I personally would want someone who carries liability insurance as well.

Thanks Diana, Denita, Grobby, and Bubba!! I will definitely be doing more permit research this weekend and looking for a new tiler, amongst other things. Thanks for all the information that will help me take steps in the right direction. Enjoy your weekend!!

Are you still obsessing over this? Once it gets grouted, it will not look bad at all because the grout will infill the gaps. This discussion about permits is ridiculous! An inspector will not care if the grout joints are not perfect. How much did you pay the guy an hour to do this job? $25? $35? $45/hr.? I bet you got a cheap tile price and are now reaming the poor guy. Is that the case or not? If so, please shut this discussion down and be happy with a pretty good job for a good price. Namaste and peace to you all.

This is not a nice work but once your grout is done, you will see a lot less, I agree.

Wow "Island Architecture",

Your comments to the OP are,

"Are you still obsessing over this?"

" This discussion about permits is ridiculous!"

" I bet you got a cheap tile price and are now reaming the poor guy. Is that the case or not? If so, please shut this discussion down,"

None of this is helpful to Lindsey. Where did you get your architecture degree? I sure hope your comments were made because you did not read all of the posts.

Multiple professionals have stated that the tile is not rated or to be used in a wet area, and professional tilers have posted that the proper board was not installed.

To Lindsey,

The job looks terrible and I would never accept that. Your post caught my attention because we just competed a small bathroom renovation. We removed travertine and used Carrera marble and our design was also to have a band running throughout. The reason I saw your post is that we love green and also went looking for glass tile for the accent band. We brought home multiple samples until we realized no matter how much we liked the green glass, it doesn't go with marble (or Carrera). That is our opinion anyway. But, that is not what the issue is although I am surprise it hasn't been brought up by the designers. Is your main tile travertine? It looks like natural stone, but can't tell by the photos. You obviously have good taste in materials.

I was also surprised that permitting was not brought up for pages until you finally mentioned it. If a permit had been pulled you would never have gotten this far because the inspector would have come out while the wall was open. There wouldn't be an issue with your older neighbor telling you the walls were sealed properly. They either were or were not, but I didn't see it on the short wall. The inspectors are there to protect the homeowner. While I agree with others that if it was up to the inspectors you would have to pull a permit to stick a nail in the wall, a bathroom tiling or renovation is by far the most important project where I would only work with someone who was licensed and pulled a permit. Now you know for the future. I also wouldn't allow anyone to tile the floor over old tile.

How much of your $7K was materials and how much went to your neighbor the handyman?

I know people are saying to sue, but hopefully you can speak to him and get a partial refund to use with someone else. There are ways to work a solution without threatening to take someone to court. It is better to have this done properly than to have a problem later.

As far as the decorative band, we ended up using JH (Jerusalem Heights mini brick). It is expensive, but you don't need a lot of it. However, assuming your walls are natural stone they would compliment the stone. They come in 12 x 12 squares but we have the bands made with a row of 5 mini-bricks so we got more that 12 inches from each square foot. If you want green they have "Ming" green marble which we liked but didn't work with the Carrera. They come in strips with the design so don't understand why yours are off. Our contractor grouted everything at once (walls and floor) once the tiles were laid.

Keep us posted and let us know what you decide to do.

Thank you, Jayne1313. Well said!!!

@IslandArchitecture, the permit/inspection issue concerns waterproofing, not grouting. The OP, far from "reaming" her contractor, is worrying about how to handle this because he's a neighbor. Maybe practice your "Careful Reading" and "Thoughtful Posting" poses a little bit :)

Your contractor should have left the tile together on the mesh sheet, and then mortared the tile to a thinner piece of backer board that fit between your lodging and screwed and mortared the backer board with the preset tile in place, there shouldn't be any cardboard on the back of the tile. He needs to fix it at his expense or pay to have a tile pro fix it.

IslandArchitecture: You clearly haven't read this entire thread. Maybe they do this sort of thing with 'island architecture,' but we off-islanders like better installations. :)

As far as the permits-- and I think someone else (Grobby?) might have mentioned this earlier-- but I'm not sure a permit/inspections would have saved you here. Too much stuff has been pulled out of this (my) house, where- clearly- there were inspections done-- but the inspectors didn't care. Too often, city inspectors are people who couldn't keep their own trade businesses in the black, so turn to city inspection jobs because of the steady dependable pay. I'm not saying ALL inspectors are like this, but many are-- where they simply phone it in and go through the paces. I've had too much done here, where a permit was pulled, and all the appropriate boxes checked, when they never should have been. City inspectors are often too cozy with the subcontractors/GC's whose work they are inspecting.

He may be a good contractor but he is not a tile setter tell him if he can't fix it himself he must get an expert to fix it until it is right good luck

NOT ACCEPTABLE. Don't let this guy try to resolve the problem either. Get estimates on repairing/having it done right and find a way to work it out with the contractor. If there is something he does well, have him do some work for "free" to cover the cost of what your bathroom re-do will run you if he won't give you a refund. Seriously--

Here is the dilemma as I see it. I think Lindsey is trying to have a nice family day/
Sunday and take a day off from all this and I hope she doesn't respond to any of it. Not everyone lives in a 500,000 dollar house with 100,000 in equity. In Florida you can get a nice house for 100,000usd. This project may have been 10% of the value of the house. It could be all the equity that is in the house or even more. Should she have a complete rip out now costing her 15-20,000usd which is now 20% of the value of the house rapped up into the bathroom. It is easy to tell someone else you need a complete do over but is there any other way out of it? As stated before it is so hard to get money back from a contractor.

J Petempich: I understand your reasoning, but I don't think a "complete rip out" would cost her that much, especially if she can get the contractor to do that. The real issue is, this tiling job doesn't appear to be merely a cosmetic problem. If she just seals (grouts) the whole thing and allows him to finish the job, as is, chances are that damage from water will cost a lot more money a short time down the road than now-- when it's still "easy" enough to stop and correct everything. I don't know of anything, off-hand, that cost more money to fix than serious interior water damage. And, through Lindsey's research, it would appear that incorrect tile (insert, at least) was chosen, and the walls were not prepared properly for a shower interior.

"I don't know of anything, off-hand, that cost more money to fix than serious interior water damage."..... Truer words were never spoken!!

J Petempich, you can't get a house for anywhere close to $100k where the OP's house is located. That aside, her bathroom doesn't have just cosmetic issues. The issues are serious. She is doing the right thing by doing her research now before the job is completed. If you read the thread to the other website your eyes will be opened to the full extent of the entire issue.

I admit I would not like how the shower floor was laid over the existing floor tile without ripping up the old with a new pan. I live in Mexico where the whole house is tiled from one end to the other and no one ever uses pans in the showers because there is so much concrete and block and grout that nothing ever gets through. Concrete is so solid and never gives like stick built so no cracking along grout lines. I don't know if hers is stick built or a concrete floor. I do squeegee down after showering. I am not a real fan of stone but people often use that and they like the patina. The grout lines in stone will always be uneven which is something people on this site are complaining about and I am not sure why. Stone thickness is uneven also. It is a look that some people like. Stone has been used in Mexico for many years along with shells, glass, river rock and just about anything else that can be imbedded in concrete.

I think she said it was her grandma's house in one of the posts, so she may have bought it from her grandma if I read it right.

Her house is block and terrazzo. But the installation of the shower was done completely incorrectly. If you are interested in the full extent of the job, read this thread and your eyes will be opened: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111556

By the way, I understand where you are coming from with grout lines in stone being uneven. That is how she started this thread and didn't even know the full extent of her issues until she went through the process with professionals on another site. I'm not trying to get her to spend more. It's her decision. She just needs to know the scope of the entire issue before she makes this decision.

I have read the whole post. I just have a different point of view. I would like to say rip it out and start over but I probably wouldn't. I know I wouldn't pay him any more money. I would definitely replace the trim tiles just because I think water will get behind them and would be so easy to replace. I don't think water will get behind the stone especially if she squeegees it. Keep a good eye on the grout which a person should do anyway. As for the floor I would also squeegee it each time and never have standing water. Ventilate it. To me it would have to do with the value of the house and what I could afford.

Hi All! Just a little update here. I talked to him and He's going to fix a few things that I had a problem with. Even though I should prob technically tear it down, gonna keep the tile on the main walls for now. Fix the accent and parts of the kneewall. They are already asking me about the next bathroom but I'm gonna look around for other options in the area. I need a real tile expert. Anyway, thank you all again!!

Good for you, Lindsey. That all sounds great! I'm so glad you talked to him, and you'll get those particular issues corrected-- smart woman. Congratulations! Do post photos when it's all finished.

Glad you found a solution you can live with, Lindsey. You did a great job researching this and I learned a lot from your dilemma, so thank you! Good luck and keep us posted.

white grout is your friend.

Yes I agree... grout is your friend!!!

Just an FYI... I see you have resolved the issue with your contractor... that was a good thing.

You certainly didn't need to have your bathroom torn out as suggested by other Houzzers. Your pictures don't show anything but an unfinished job...
A job done on a budget... Not wrong by any measure! Most would tear out and start fresh but if that wasn't possible... the contractor did what he could do.

the rest will be fine once grouted. Grout marries everything... tile jobs never look good before grouting!

As for the concrete board... there is nothing behind it on the walls... we cut out drywall and install the backer board. It wicks water to the drain. Before we install the backer board the drain and pan have been created... that membrane goes behind the backer board at the floor up 6" or so. In your case it was already there. The knee wall is absolutely standard...

The only other option is using the Schluter system... a waterproof membrane that does not use concrete board but this is very expensive and you would have had to start from scratch.

You can laminate over existing tile with more tile. he did not have to re-do the pan. If no leaks were present he was fine.

if he did not move a drain... or take down a wall... or rewire or install new plumbing lines... he did not need a permit.

Sadly I saw a lot of non professionals crucifying this guy with a few pro's in there as well... It is not the place for us to make the home owner feel horrible about their contractor but to offer good advice that has knowledge behind it - especially in this case. Any project can be done many many different ways.. budget dictates which path we take..

Bathroom remodels are never pretty... They only come together after the grout!

Hi Lindsey,

Was this ever fixed to your satisfaction? Just wondering if you had resolution.

Thanks.

Update, for the most part the bathroom is complete and I really like it. Last thing installed was the glass. It is a little short for the kneewall and that bothered me, but we are trying to find a solution for that.

So hopefully this will resolve soon. I learned a lot from this process and I know now the right questions to ask. Thank you all again for your insight and advice!!

Hey Lindsey,

Thanks for posting the photos. This looks infinitely-- just so so much better than your original re-do. Wow-- I really love this. Love the new mosaic-- the whole thing is beautiful.

I know what you mean about the frosted glass, but unless stopping it short allows water from the shower head to spray out-- I wouldn't be bothered replacing it. It looks so good. I have a shower/tub with a fixed glass like this on one side. We had a conversation with the glass installer, before it was installed, about where to stop the glass. Apparently-- at least with the tub/shower combo-- there is a natural (standard) place to stop glass. There were all these reasons why, but I know we discussed this for a while. Anyway-- I don't know-- maybe this is the same situation. Nevertheless, it looks terrific. And, again, unless water is an issue, I'd leave it as is. Having that few inches extra space might allow you to put something there, too. (I'm all over free flat surfaces!).

Beautiful job. I know you're thrilled to have it done. Love the blues!

It looks great. I love the dark floor tile and the new trim tiles you chose.