Your garden soils are more than 90% - probably more than 95% inorganic, but you want to grow in an "organic" mix? Just what does that mean? ;o)

An excellent, long lasting mix for citrus trees is: equal parts (by volume) of Turface, crushed granite, and pine bark. Though the mix is 2/3 inorganic, it still has up to 6 times the organic content of most garden soils. Does that qualify?

If you choose soil ingredients that break down quickly, like compost, various manures, straw, leaves, a high % of peat ....., you're building collapse into your soils before you even plant in them.

I'll leave a link where you can learn a little more about container soils if you'd care to.

Al

Here is a link that might be useful: Learn about soils by clicking me

Being classified as "organic" as I understand it means it was once a living organism. Granite and other minerals have been, and are being, reduced to sand,silt and clay. Often organics such as lichen are part of the process of making "soil" out of rocks. Do you really not want minerals, which were never "organic" not to be a part of your citrus soil? I wonder if what you are saying is that you want to feed your citrus "organic" food? Al

So Sorry..My incorrect wording..What I meant to say was soil. soil made up of all kinds of dead decayed material such as manure, peatmoss, batgwamo, soil from outside, compost and so on....The kind of soil u would grow things outside in, as verses a soiless mix.
Is there such thing as a composted rich soil or is soiless the way to go.
I like your idea Al. Very easy to make and seems well draining. I suppose the roots don't know the difference between composty soil as to the one your saying is good for Citrus. I guess it is all in the fertilzer we provide for the plants? :-)
I was told by another plant lover that I should mix cow manure into my potted plants for good nutrition. I don't agree with this either...I more likely agree with Als suggestion! LOl
Guess you don't have to grow Citrus in soil you would grow them outside side in, in a pot, but soiless is the way to go? Or should I say Poopless...Lol :-)
Does this makes sense now. I hope so for all the other growers who would think of throwing in all kinds of decayed materials into there soiless mix including potting SOIL which I hear tends to stay wet to long and heavy!
Thanks Al and to all a goodnight

I understand the issues and concerns about the reduced aeration in maintaining healthy roots and growth in containers in the long-term due to decomposition, but I don't entirely agree with the above assertions and opinions that the use of organic amendments has no place or would cause harm in containers unconditonally. Since repotting is often necessary and beneficial to a container plant and practiced by a knowledgeable gardener even if one uses a good potting mix with an excellent initial water-holding capacity, balanced nutrition, pH, and total porosity, the numerous benefits of using organic amendments in containers may outweigh any theoretical or calculated adverse structural suppositions.

In passing, I read over two handsful of published university, international agricultural, and nursery based studies including documented photos from gardeners and commercial growers suggesting the benefits of including fungi, bacteria, fish/kelp emulsion and compost, vermicompost, bat guano, and garden compost in potting mix in the prevention of plant diseases and enhancement of plant health, quality, and yield. Published evidence-based analysis, conclusion, and opinions aside, rosarians know the wonders of seaweed emulsion and compost on roses. I read one cannabis grower really liked his coir and bat guano combo mix (in production quality and taste) over the two other side-by-side fertigation methods of using expensive hydroponic and chemical fertilizers, for example. Although there were flaws with his experimental method in my view and other no so transparent enumeration and observation, I could tell he made an honest effort to isolate all biases and variables. Although I wouldn't take his conclusion as credible findings, he and others were really surprised by his findings and the assertions and opinions shared by "experienced" and "knowledgeable" cannabis growers.

Similarly, check out a site called Backyardaquaponics (with pics) where organic waste, bacteria, gases, and nitrogen from connected fish tank/ecology and filtered water from gravel beds of productive healthy edible crops sustain each other for food production (including the edible FISH!) without any use of fertilizers. Personally, I would like some plant tissue culture and nutritional analysis done on the fish and the crops to verify the superior claims, and I still have some questions about the costs, flexibility, and utility of an aquaponic setup in range of or extreme climates, but such self-sustaining and symbiotic method seems doable on cursive read. After reading numerous userfeedback such as these as well as university studies, I'm inspired and getting ready to test vermicompost/bat guano with coir or with expanded shale for the next growing season.

May I inquire the details about what % composition of compost and organic amendments you used in your potting mix and the time it took for your citrus trees and plants to fail? Usually the experts recommend no more than 10-30% organic composts in containers. 50% compost may be doable if one is using inorganic potting amendments. I do agree, however, the quality and sources of organic amendments will not be reliably consistent and not always free of contaminants and that the use of organic amendments in container is a qualified one.

In addition, I grow my lemon trees in containers with organic compost (kitchen waste) and bark fines ("organic") and perlite. They are still young plants but are really going strong in a 5-gallon container (even staying indoors now in the winter). This is their second going on third year. In my own experience so far, I really count on my "organic" amendments to supply my crops and ornamental plants with all or most of the secondary and trace elements. The secondary and trace elements from these organic sources seem to be more than sufficient after the NPK requirements are met by my SRF or soluble fertilizers as my crops do not generally suffer from nutrient toxicity or deficiency even though I do not supply my plants with chemical micronutrients. I will be using complete and balanced commercial soluble and hydroponic fertilizers next for comparisons.

The "magic" isn't in the physical characteristics of a chosen soilless mix (healthy plants and crops can grow on gravel as we have seen and know) as long as a gardener can assure some good to suitable porosity to allow the roots to function, but plant health and productivity (and natural disease resistance), container or otherwise, is totally a function and depended on the pH and the interplay of chemistry in a grow medium. Water and nutrient uptake by the roots (the fertility of the soil/mix or plant nutrition) is all chemistry. Thus, the chemistry (and pH) of water and elements present in a substrate and with respect to characteristic sensitivities of a species of plants seem areas of knowledge that are worthy of a gardener's time to master to succeed.

BTW, for anyone interested in pondering and seeking... I topdress (mulch) select containers with organic compost for disease prevention as well as for both moisture and temperature control. I can say in my years of soilless container gardening, I have never seen or encountered fungus gnats or pest related problems... even in hot humid summers in Big E.

greenchem,

Enjoyed your approach to resolution of some of the problems of container growing. I have many times wondered why so little is mentioned on the many forums the swing to the latest proven "natural i.e.green" technology in the collector/hobbyist growing industry. It has become a major player in my state of California which has the most plant collectors, hobbyist in the USA. In addition, my business the commercial "green business" that being the nursery and landscape industry which I have been very active over the last 50 plus years.

Products such as Micorrhizae a beneficial fungus necessary for most plant life. Or, Streptomyces lydicus a natural microorganism inoculant for pathogen/bacterial control. Also, coir as a awesome natural additive for soilless planting mixes.

We use these often along with seaweed extract, humic/fulvic acid, potassium silicates and bio type fertilizers. These are incorporated in our fertigation systems as well as topically applied in the field i.e. growing grounds and greenhouses on a daily basis. The older I get the more I have found "thinking" and using green products will help my grandchildren and great grandchildren in their lives.

Thinking "green" every day,
{{gwi:869}}

WOW!!!! greenchem,,,,You blew me away. I do not know what to say except Thanks. I have been afraid to go this way because no one has ever showed me the right way to use the soil u describe. I have just concocted my own mix and have not had any succes. I have all the bat gwamo, worm compost, seagul poop, dehydrated manure, peatmoss, and so on in my basement and have been afraid to use them. I only have been using stone. bark, pumice, wood bark, a little soiless mix, and perlite in my mixes to avoid drainage problems. NOt sure if it is a healthy mix for good plant growth though. I even used citrus and avacado natural fertilizer you mix into the soil which brought on fungas nats and pasty soil which brought on root rot on 3 of my citrus trees that killed them. I even bought microizzer for the soil . I was so against chemical that I was told by tons of people that none of this is good for potted plants indoors.That organic fertilzer does not meet the demands of citrus trees. Only for the ground. I am talking about experienced citrus growers from florida and such. I got so discouraged that I transplanted all my citrus in the fall into soiless mix with none of the additives..You are right about the ph of the soil.My water is nuetral at 7.0 and I never thought of the soil having to be more acidic. So I fed my trees MIracid by Miricle Grow,suggested to me by a citrus grower,instead of fish emulsion, which I also only used until this time.,which went against my feelings, but it seemed to make a difference. IF u have a great recipe for a soil, please tell me. I want to be succesful with my citrus and it would be very kind of u. If u have a great feeding program for citrus too that is organic, PLEASE let me know. Do not remember if u already told me in prenious post, but I will look. Thanks for the encouragement. If anyone can give me a great way to make rich draining composty soil, I will leave the soiless behind in the spring. Just no one has jumped into action on this yet except for you in encourageing to use amendments to potting mix. Have agreat day all. Hope I hear from u all again.
Sissy..:-) Hope I was understandable since I am nervous about asking questions..:-). I don't want to sound dumb.Lol

I will throw a few thoughts in here (some mentioned in one form or another in other posts here)

1. coconut coir can and is being used as a component to a soiless organic mix but the quality and salt content is a problem that will have to be addressed by the individual growers ability to know the product and test first before using on more than a small scale.

2. There are multiple posts here about using fish emulsion/ and or seaweed as part if not most of the nutritional program as well as many other organic materials.

3. To say that perlite, turface, lava sand (pumice) granite grit are not acceptable for organic growing is a real stretch IMO. They are of the earth and add no chemicals that are man made. They function to provide air, drainage and cation exchange values that are even more critical in container growing than in ground growing.

4. The extreme heat and cold flucuations do create multiple problems to the soil fungi, bacteria, /assorted microbes that breakdown the elements of an all organic program so the more you control these extremes the more success you will have with organic nutritional programs with whatever you choose to grow in your containers.

5. Using containers for a season is one thing and growing the same plant in the same mix for multiple seasons is another. The mixes most talked about here are for longer term growing and how to get the most from the the soil media to allow the plant (whatever it is)to reach the best of its genetic potential.

6. I personally use a combination of organic and chemical nutrient and media. I bend much more toward organic growing than a strictly chemistry based program. One thing I use is osmocote so even if everything else I use in the media or apply to the container is organic based I am not being strictly organic but I am seeing incredible results from utilizing various components of information gleaned from the wealth of great ideas and practical solutions presented in this forum.

7. I would add that my thoughts, ideas and continued participation in this forum are because I am constantly amazed at the various and diverse approaches to container growing that this forum offers. I have been growing in containers (wholesale and retail nursery)and at home for over 20 years now and I have found much of value and use in this forum. I hope that the people reading this thread that wish to be organic in your appoach really spend some time reading thru the wealth of info here and know that you will walk away with many ideas and concepts that will help you be a better container grower and ultimately that is what this forum is for.

8. One last thought, and that is put your ideas and thoughts into participating in discussing your organic appoaches (success and failures) so we can all gain from your experiences.

Happy Growing to one and all David

David....Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. Makes one think of all the possibilities of perfect container soil. You know the funny thing, I probably have a 1000 dollars worth of all kinds of product to make soil, bags and bags of stuff, and I am so afraid to use any of it except the pumice, bark fines,perlite, volcanic stones, and a little potting soil amended by these. Maybe now I can just mix everything together including all the poop and composted stuff and make a GORMET mix. The plants might love it. As long as it is well draining and not so quick to breakdown and cause root rot. HUM!!!! :-)
If anyone else has any ideas, please lets not end this thread. I really appreciate everyones ideas and suggestions and knowledge. Have a great night to all...:-)
SEems to me a large percentage of us are very interested in making a great soil for citrus! Just tons of different ideas leading to the same conclusion....Fast draining. airy,and allows roots not to rot.

Thank you to everyone who contributed. It's interesting to read everyone's expertise, opinions, preferences, successes, and failures. I also share with everyone here the value of sharing.

RE: ORGANIC VS SYNTHETIC IN CONTAINER GARDENING

Other than the value in bearing witness that the possibilities exist where many also have succeeded in growing healthy and productive crops using organic amendments in soilless and/or hydroponic container culture and in many soilless ways globally, I'm also a technical moderate and was not arguing for organic vs synthetic as I also garden with calculated risks by experimenting and maximizing the good both in nature and man-made as long as the choices can be supported by reasonable independent corroborating evidence (and don't have to be the best or perfect, either), are beneficial and sustainable for all creatures and the planet earth, and make individual economical as well as logistical sense.

RE: CITRUS POTTING MIX

Dear Sissy,

I'm not a citrus expert. In fact, because I have been so preoccupied with other gardening issues and plants and they are also doing well without much intervention, other than watering, my young lemon trees (2' tall) have been pretty much neglected. I don't know about lemon trees or citrus in depth or as I should. I tend to learn the most about a plant when my plant is ailing. You probably already know more than I do about growing citrus in containers.

It seems that it would be of greatest value to you and others to learn from you and your organic potting mix experiences growing citrus. Again, I don't think it's that important to use the best or an ideal soilless potting recipe (nor does one exist) to grow citrus productively since plant species, geography/season, climates, available materials locally, growers' needs, and gardeners differ, as long as you know how to and can ensure a workable to good balance between air and water/nutrient retentions. I would work backward by building on your observed failures and the successes of others to figure out what need to be done differently to grow citrus successfully and then test your hunches. Collect and make columns of clues and observation without judgment for analysis. Answers worth researching that may help expedite the analytical process in determining possible causes of past failures and in maintaining productive citrus in the future are: 1) What are the minimal cultivation requirements (soil pH, soil type - clay, loam, or sandy, hr light, moisture, fertility, and etc.) and other known preferences and sensitivities (pH, fertility, and elemental nutrient, and etc.) of the species of citrus tree/plant I'm growing? 2) Of the minimal requirements, what needs did you meet and not meet and how do they compare to your actual practices as well as with those of other gardeners who are succeeding when your plants died? 3) What most likely changes need to be tested and made (eliminated and kept) to grow healthy citrus? For not so obvious issues (which or how much organic amendments), I would only change and test one variable (either the amount or the brand, for example) at time so you can assess the impact and consequence more accurately. 4) Were the citrus/plant deaths (root rots, plant pathology, or pests) caused more by a watering, pH, or fertilizing issue, and/or all, etc.?

Because of your questions about citrus, I took a more close look of my lemon trees this morning. They grew another six inches (young leaves) even in indoors in the winter (heat is on now) since I watered with very diluted compost tea a few days ago. Other than some previously sustained cold temperature damage on a few old leaves, majority of the leaves are healthy and unblemished.

RE: MY POTTING MIX FOR MY LEMON TREES

I probably didn't baby or fertilize my lemon trees as much as you do with your citrus since they are doing well on their own and I was preoccupied with other gardening issues and didn't want to do anything without reading up on it first. My potting mix and fertilization regimen for my lemon trees maybe quite minimalist compared to yours.

It has been a while since I last repotted it either in the spring or summer, and I can't really be sure of the exact potting mix. Sometimes, because of multi-tasking gardening chores, running out of time, or involvement in mass repotting, I would forget to take notes on the changes I made. The potting mix is highly likely to be in the 1:1 or 60/40 (bark fines:perlite) range. I can't remember what SRF NPK macro only (chemical) I used last, but usually they are 12-12-12 along that line. I also can't be sure if I potted it with lime or not, but I don't usually add lime in containers unless I see symptoms or to address plant-associated sensitivity issues. Apply a light dressing of aged homemade compost.

Even in the summer and grown in outdoor shade, my containerized young lemon trees didn't seem to need to be watered much (1.5" finger test) - only about 1 to 1.5 weeks maybe. I water my lemon trees grown in shade (or indoors) deeply as I do with all my containers but less frequently (as needed) relative to my other container plants in comparison. In addition to my homemade compost, I use diluted compost tea, seaweed emulsion, or soluble NPK (chemical) feed periodically when I water.

Lemons trees, for example, generally are tolerant of poor infertile sandy soil. They prefer soil pH in the 5.5-6.5. They are more sensitive to cold temperatures than oranges. I don't know exactly what citrus you are growing, but assuming your potting mix had a moderate to fast draining profile and good porosity, you may want to water less than you did if you are growing lemons and given the specs above. You could also just use soluble fertilizers (from chemical and/or organic sources) without any compost or biosolids until you do some research about the compost you are using, the way you are using the organic fertilizers, or gain some confidence and successes. Generally, a light dressing of finished organic compost on top or in a mixed-in layer not away from roots toward the bottom of the container or as instructed should not pose a problem to porosity or contribute to plant pathology but enhanced fertility and aeration and/or water retention.

I read that bat guano generally should be processed by cave beatles to remove potential pathogens, so you may want to look into that or your brand or not use bat guano altogether and use your warmcastings instead.

Thankyou greenchem!! You seem like a very knowledgable person and your opinion and experience is very much appreciated. Thanks to everyone so far for sharing and for trying to help me see things in a good light.We are all helping one another and I think that there is alot of us out there that want to do what is best for our babies ( citrus trees )and put their feet in the best shoes, lol, their roots in the best soil possible to create maximum happiness. I think we could go on forever on types of soils, and it is great to put everyones thoughts together and come up with soil of our own. Thanks again to all. I am sure that I am not the only one learning from this forum..:-)P.S. Think I will try your mix grenchem in the spring.I will also try others such as Al's and or Toni's and so on since I have plenty of trees to test these mixes on..:-)
I will be back in months from now to let all know what soil worked best for me!!!Happy citrus growing.

More challenges about previous associations made between root rots (and other plant disease) and soil compaction and the use of compost :)

While there are some risks and disadvanages about using compost and biosolids, container plants grown in soilless media as well as in hydro culture which are fed only soluble fertilizers in the absence of any compost and manures can equally suffer from greenhouse pests attacks and related fungal, viral, and bacterial diseases and root roots caused by unhygienic horticultural and hydroponic practices, overwatering/rain, root medium compaction and anaerobic conditions, poor drainage (many associated and secondary contributing factors), low light, low root oxygen, cold/hot temperature stresses, over fertilizing, and crowding. Moreover, when risks are managed and in comparable time frame, organic amendments, aged compost, and dehydrated manures often improve potting soil as well as potting mix texture, aeration, and drainage rather than causing structural problems or diseases. Depending on plant needs, climates/temperatures/moisture, availability of materials locally, a gardener's resources, expertise, preferences, and motivation, there is a range of priorities, trade-offs, and happy healthy medium both for a plant as well as a gardener.

My sense is that if a soilless potting mix consists of 50-75% inorganic components with similar to uniform sized particles where good root aeration is ensured, most of the plant diseases associated with soil compaction, fungus gnat, water/nutrient/temperature/light stresses, and poor drainage issues would be minimized and managed for many species of plants regardless the exact recipe of the mix, the expertise and knowledge of a gardener, or whether compost or manures are involved especially since all organisms including plants will adjust and thrive in a range of conditions even not so ideal ones.

greenchem your last paragraph says what we all have said, in as few words as possible. Thanks for the clarity. Al

Ditto...Al...And where have you been in all this discusion. You are a very smart man too!
Thanks again greenchem and have a great weekend!!!!

So sorry Al..You were a partof the thread on soil. For some reason reason I wasn't allowed to post it on the same thread so I sent you a special thanks for being a part of it. It was Toni I was thinking of. He seems very smart too. He wasn't involved in it and I missed his input ...:-) along with others because there is alot of smart citrus growers on this forum.:-)

Sissy

Hi, Sissy. I've been watching the thread, but no one has really said anything I haven't already said hundreds of times, except to take a view, different from mine, on using soil ingredients that break down quickly, so I really don't have much to add. If you have a specific question, I'll be glad to address it. ;o)

Al

Thanks everyone for your feedback. What did Toni say about container citrus? The Inquirer wants to know :)

Although my young lemon trees are doing fine in my bark fines and perlite mix, I am looking to replace composted bark fines (sold as soil conditioner) out of all my mix eventually if coir, coco husk chips, and expanded shale prove to be equal or better alternatives and a good combination. Composted bark fines (also an organic amendment) is widely available and economical, but it is less structurally stable than coco coir.

I am a little concerned about the pH profile of expanded shale. Anyone with experience or expertise about using expanded shale in containers?

Hi Al,
Come to think of it ,you have said alot since I have been searching around this forum. You are a good man for sharing and if I have any questions about citrus, I would love to be able to e-mail you. Thanks again ,and thanks to everyonelse that helped me. I too wonder how coco coir works and the proceedures you have to put the stuff through to make it usable and nutrient enough to grow plants in this stuff?
Stay happy everyone. Spring is almost here, then we can have fun using all kinds of different soils for good use and experimenting to see what our plants love the most when we transplant. I am going to try 15 different soils. The one that works best.MAY THE BEST SOIL WIN!! lol

Take care for now,
Sissy

Feel free, Sissy. I'm sure I would enjoy helping however I can. ;o)

Take care.

Al