Do your plants need a tan??

I would think that the credit card bill going up buying the lights initially would be the biggest worry.

Don't know what you have in mind, but just look at the wattage of the lights used. Compare to your normal lights in the house. Flourescent lights don't used that much energy compared to tradtional lights. Do a little research and see what you actually need.

Get some 4ft shop lights that can handle T8 bulbs...and but some T8 bulbs...cheap to run, work just fine.

Agree with Franktank.

I think mine are the standard T12 bulbs though - like regular shop lights.

I have my "germination station" setup in the basement. I then have three four-foot fluorescent fixtures that can take two bulbs each.

So, a total of six bulbs. I ensured to pay the extra cost to get the 40-watt bulbs and not the 32-watt bulbs (which are usually about $1 each). An extra 8 watts isn't much - but the cost of the bulbs is much more (I was thinking I paid $7 for a pair of those bulbs).

Had very good luck with just using the cool white premium bulbs. I've read where others use both cool white and natural daylight bulbs.

I tried those grow-lux bulbs a few years back - and I don't think they do as good as the cool white bulbs.

Here is a link that shows my setup to a certain extent. I made a box and lined it with plastic so I could bottom-feed plants instead of watering from the top. I then constructed a cheap hanging apparatus that the three fixtures hang from. The plants are a month (or more) old and are still doing fine:

Germination Station

Plants need more of the spectrum than just UV.

Dan

Here's some info I found while surfing....

T12 and Incandescent Light Bulb Energy Usage

A kilowatt hour is defined as the use of 1000 watts of electricity in an hour. Therefore, a 40W T12 light bulb would cost an average of 12 cents for every 25 hours of use (25 x 40 equals 1000 watts, which equals 1 kilowatt). However, since T12-type fluorescent lights use as many as four light bulbs, the figure is multiplied times four. For instance, a T12 fluorescent light with four bulbs would consume one kilowatt of power in approximately 6.25 hours. Likewise, a 40W incandescent bulb would consume one kilowatt of power in approximately 25 hours of usage. This too would result in an average cost of 12 cents.

T8 Light Bulbs and the Savings

Since T8 light bulbs with a ballast use approximately 40 percent less electricity than their T12 counterparts, they can be used for considerably more hours before the one kilowatt threshold is reached. A 25W T8 bulb could be used for 40 hours and consume only one kilowatt. This means that you can use the T8 bulb 15 more hours than you could the T12 type while paying the same amount.

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Now to grow 50 seedlings probably takes 2 4foot 2 lamp fixtures with a total of 4 lamps. Using my cost per kilowatt hour for electricity, that setup would cost me 28 cents a day. That means for 60 days I would spend $17.00. That's less than the fixtures would cost. How much would the plants cost at a nursery?

Hope this is correct as I'm quite tired today.

One thing to add. All the electricity for the lights is heat so if you are in a cold climate area like me the cost can be factored in as part of your heating bill and not a direct expense. Something to take into consideration when placing your grow area.

Curt

Along Curt's lines, I have a box that I put the flats in, which captures the heat of the lights, for faster germination. The white inside paint helps too. And 60 days of grow lights is a long time.

Dan

All the electricity for the lights is heat

Only the unused light would go to heat, which would be a lot if you used UV or incandescent.

And 60 days of grow lights is a long time.

Maybe if you're only growing for a single season. Many grow 3 seasons.

Curt-

Yup...mine are in the kitchen...the heat just goes to keeping it warm...

Maybe if you're only growing for a single season. Many grow 3 seasons.

Most likely the OP is one season. So the cost according to the calcs above is half the given number, and seed starting is cheaper.

Nonetheless, UV lights are inadequate for the job. Plenty of opportunities to find fixtures on sale and appropriate bulbs at a good price.

Dan

50 seedlings will fit easily in two flats, which can be placed end-to-end under a shop light that takes two 4-foot, 40-watt T12 fluorescent bulbs. Buy good-quality cool-white bulbs; you don't need anything fancy, but don't use cheap bargain-bin bulbs. You'll want to run them 16 to 18 hours per day.

You can figure the total electricity usage like this: 80 watts x 16 hours/day x 60 days / 1000 = 77 kilowatt-hours. Check your electric bill for the price per kilowatt-hour (kWh). At 15 cents per kilowatt-hour, that's about $11.50 for the season.

nygardener has it right (including the math). I'd recommend the T12 bulbs myself. Here, I can pick up a shop light (holds two bulbs) from Home Depot for around $15, and a pack of 10 bulbs that will average out around a little over $1 per bulb (Home Depot has the best prices for the fixture and the bulbs that I've been able to find locally).

I tend to buy lengths of chain to replace what comes with the lights and a small clip for the chain so I can easily adjust the height of my lights as the plants grow. With some PVC (hand fitting is fine) you can easily build a stand to hold the lights. Wood will work also.

Walmart sells some cheap plastic containers (rubbermaid) which are a perfect fit for my lights and the 18 ounce cups (Costco has the best price) I grow in. I just poke holes in the bottom of the cups and let the water soak up through the soil in the cup - that way I don't over water, and don't have to water often due to the reservoir in the containers. You can throw a plastic sheet over the whole operation to conserve heat if you like.

I dont see how you can save any money growing your own plants compared to buying them in a 4 to a tray nursery price. However you have a lot more choices buying seeds and growing your choice of what you want. I grow a wide range of sweet and hot peppers you cant find anywhere else but in a mail order catalog. I buy my tomatoes, broccoli, and a few other plants at a local nursery 4 to a tray, 18 trays to a flat for $14.00. Thats 72 plants @ $.20 per plant.

I've spent 15 dollars on potting soil, 15 on seeds, which I won't have to buy again for a long time, and whatever it's costing for the lights to run. I have 6 flats out now, but will be planting two more in the next few days. Each flat has between 50 and 100 plants in it, so I've got over 400 plants for under 50 bucks. Less than 12.5 cents per plant at this point, plus I get to choose each variety, can grow them to the size I want, as many as I want... Plus it gives me something to do when the snow doesn't allow me to be in the garden.

It could be much cheaper if I hadn't left my compost out in the snow. That would take care of the potting soil, bringing my total down to under 35 dollars. Still, 12.5 cents for 100 asparagus plants is one heck of a deal if you ask me.

I'll just chime in to say that plain old cheap fluorescent shop lights work great, and as others have said, if you do the math, they're not particularly expensive to run. I run mine about 12-14 hours per day, and I have heat mats that I use 24x7 until things germinate. The heat mats are nice, but almost certainly optional, especially if you use some of the other tricks that people have suggested. My shelf unit was also designed to hold the flats centered in front of the window, so that I can use a combination of artificial lights and window light...but in other houses, I've used artificial light nearly alone.

Personally, I don't have a lot of space in my house, so I paid extra to buy 2' shop lights rather than the more common (and much less expensive) 4' ones, and I built a tall-and-skinny seed starting shelf. It suits my needs nicely, and takes up very little space.

I built my seed-starting shelf out of wood, and I was lucky enough to find almost all of what I need in Home Depot's scrap bin. The Home Depot stores in my area keep a scrap bin at the back of the lumber section, and fill it with the leftovers after people have had other pieces cut. These scraps are deeply discounted. You never quite know what you'll find, so you might need to make a few visits, or ask the employees when the pickings are particularly good. However, on the day I went, I was fortunate enough to find almost everything I needed right there, and I was able to build my entire 3-shelf, ceiling-height unit (not including the lights and heat mats) for about $20.

Like others, I use chains to adjust the height of my lights. I hang them from "cup hooks" that are screwed into the underside of the shelf above.

Clearly I need to take a picture of my setup, so that I can show off. :-)

Leira, We all like pictures. I would personally love to see it.

There are lots of pictures of setups here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Post Your Grow Light Setup

obrionusa, my seed-starting shelf will come out of the basement in a couple of weeks for starting herbs, flowers, and cool-weather stuff. I will attempt to take pictures of it in all of its glory then!

Didn't read ALL the posts, but I wanted to share that to roughly span the entire light spectrum, you can simply buy one cool and one daylight bulb and put both in your 4-foot shop light. It works wonders! No grow lights needed. I've done tons of reading and was confident before I did it three seasons ago. Cheap grow lights!

Here is a link that might be useful: Sinfonian's garden adventure

In my basement, I use shop lights ($9 per set, plus bulbs) hanging by chains and S hooks for adjustability, from the perforated shelves of plastic storage shelves. I have them all on timers that turn them off for eight hours at night and run the other sixteen hours a day. I have enough of this set up to grow out 22 flats of seedlings at a time. I start seeds in late summer for pansies and winter vegs, and again in early spring for summer vegetables and annuals. I can honestly say that I never see a bump up in my power bill. It's all in my unfinished basement and I keep a hose at the door which I drag inside for watering. It works.

UV stands for ultraviolet. They do make UV (blacklight) bulbs, but they are mostly to make fluorescent paint glow in the dark, or for sterilizing food or water.
I think the originator of the thread probably meant fluorescent lights that put out their radiation in the visible spectrum.

From what I've read on the subject, UV is generally considered bad for your plants and in situations where the UV is filtered, the plants have been shown to do better. That said, UV is important when you're considering temperatures...

Also, on the T8 vs T12 bit - yes, the T8's are cheaper to run per bulb, but they also generate less light. The whole point here is light, and typically these bulbs aren't sufficient if you're trying to produce veggies inside (not enough light). They do work for sprouting just fine, but knowing there's something of a lack there, I've always preferred to provide as much light as possible - hence I prefer the T12 bulbs. I pay more to run them, but I get more light.

Also, on the T8 vs T12 bit - yes, the T8's are cheaper to run per bulb, but they also generate less light.

Not true. In fact just the opposite. T8's are much more efficient. They put out more light using less power.

What I said was true as I said it. I'm not aware of any 4ft T8 bulb that produces 3200 lumens. It may be more efficient per watt, but I've not seen any running 40 watts. So - if you want more light in the same space, the T12s are a better option than the T8s - even if the T8 is more efficient per watt.

The Standard T12 lamp produces 2,650 initial lumens per lamp. The standard T8 produces 2,800 initial lumens per lamp. The standard T12 lamp produces 2,300 design lumens and the T8 produces 2,660 design lumens.
We can get into different bulbs, different operating temps, CRI, 2700k vs 6500k, but I think that would be for a different forum.
BTW Please tell us what readily available T12 puts out 3200 lumens and if you've actually tested them or are you going by the manufacturers label?

It sounds like T8s are a better bet for energy use, and they're available for a reasonable price.

They're Philips bulbs. Home Depot sells them in a 10 pack. For comparison purposes I think it's fair to use the manufacturer specs as I would expect a manufacturer to use pretty similar measurements methods between their different bulbs. For grins though, I do have a light meter and measured one in a dark room with a single bulb running. It was well in excess of 3200.

While at Wal-Mart today, I noticed some other T12s rated at even higher than 3200 - they're not priced as good though. The Home Depot bulbs are some of the cheapest (price wise - the ones I purchased a year ago are still performing fine) I've found.

I posted a big long "thank you everyone" message last night and I'm surprised it's not here. I wanted to say thank you to all of you who answered. I didn't realize that UV alone was not really what I was looking for. I love all of the pics posted. Last my my kids and I started lots of seeds (144 to be exact). I think next weekened we are going to go look for lighting. We're fortunate to be right near a Home Depot. Right now, I know warmth is critical so I'm keeping my thermostat on 76F. My basement, however, is cold. I'm wondering if when I have the seedlings up close to the light, if that will keep them warm enough??? If, not I can just move them upstairs.

Margaret

wow, that kills the whole thread, does not it? One computes and computes, and then a significant cost of the whole operation is keeping a whole house at 76F for a week (or two, if peppers are involved), to warm a couple of trays.

Indeed.

Dan

We always keep the house warm anyway.

It probably wouldn't cost as much as running a tanning booth for 16 hours a day for that long just to come out with dead plants! LOL!

gblack you still haven't produced the bulb that the manufacturer says will supply 3200 lumens and I have to wonder where you placed this light meter and what setting you used? Does it measure lumens? I can do a comparison if you can supply a part# or product#, it should be on the box and/or the bulb.
You also must consider T12's are about to be phased out and supplies will be limited in the near future.

margaretmom, how cold is the basement? If it's above 60 degrees F, you should be fine. By the way, if you use clear plastic humidity domes over the trays (remove them for an hour a day to air out the trays), they'll help conserve moisture and also cause the plants to germinate more quickly.

I wouldn't wait to get lights. Many garden plants start germinating in a couple of days, and if there's no light the seedlings will become "etiolated" (lanky and terminally unhealthy) within a day.

A cold basement (assuming it's not REALLY cold) shouldn't kill most plants but it will slow down growth. My basement (normally doesn't drop below 54F ) is a bit cold so I start earlier to allow for the delayed growth. I also compensate by putting plastic over the whole operation to help keep the heat in.

nygardener is right that you don't want to wait on the lights. Getting them now allows you to iron out any issues you have with placement or suspension ahead of time - once you see the plant pop up you don't want to delay getting it under the light.

The T12 bulbs are available from Home Depot - Model #226068. As for the accuracy of the box? I'm still doubting Philips has any sort of conspiracy going to inflate the numbers on their T12 bulbs vs their T8s.

The phase out? They've already been phased out from what I've seen. I believe that was scheduled to take place the middle of last year. The target is the ballasts in the lights though, not the bulbs. There's also some exemptions like residential applications. Either way, it will lower bulb production, which at some point in the future will probably result in a price spike. It's a little uncertain how soon that spike may be though.

Just a suggestion. I moved my light stand that has my peppers in it to a small bathroom. I keep a very small heater going in there and the door closed. Doesn't take nearly as much heat.

I'm cheap. I start my seeds indoors and move the trays out into the sun when the temperature gets above 35 degrees. I don't get the biggest seedlings, but they work fine. I start about 10 trays of plants with 72 plants in each tray.

I swear my posts aren't posting. We do have some seeds (cucumbers and onions) sprouting now. It's only been three days! I have them in those 72 cell blocks. I didn't realize how important it was to move them right away once they sprout. I tried to group lots of seeds that sprout within a week or so into this group. Our basement really is too cold...much less than 60F. I think I'll move them into the bay window and use blankets to block the draft. They will at least get some sun until I can get a light directly above them.

It's a little early for cucumbers!

Margaretmom, GardenWeb requires that you "preview" every post before posting it, so you need to click the "Preview Message" button and then click the "Submit Message" button on the next page as well. I have very often failed to actually post what I intended to post, and I agree that it's annoying!

I agree that it's likely too early for cucumbers, and they don't transplant particularly well anyway.

Germination times as written on seed packets can vary widely, as it sounds like you've experienced. If you're feeling particularly ambitious, you could keep a "lab notebook" for yourself, so that next year you can refresh your memory about your actual experiences.

Also, as people have said, seedlings need LIGHT. Truthfully, I put mine under the lights as soon as I plant them. Not all seeds (in fact, very few seeds, I think) require light to germinate, but I don't want to miss any when they poke up through the soil.

Remember that if you put some lights right over the top of a seed tray, that you'll raise the localized temperature of the tray, even if the room (or basement) is a lot cooler.

There is one thing in favor of T12 bulbs over T8 bulbs. The T12 bulb is 1.5 inches in diameter whereas the T8 is 1 inch in diameter, therefore the heat generated by the T12 bulb is spread over a circumference 50% larger so it is less likely to burn any leaves touching it. T5 bulbs are even more likely to burn any leaves touching them as they are only 5/8 of an inch in diameter.

Taz -

Here's a link to the bulbs. Same ones I use, and they work fantastically, and produce 3200 + lumens.

On a per bulb set up, I haven't found any this cheap that compete.

Down the road, if T12 either become cost prohibitive, or unavailable I will switch, but for now, they work great!

Here is a link that might be useful: Phillips T12 3200 Bulbs