You should be fine with the old mix that has gypsum, but I would still mix in about 1/4 tsp of Epsom salts/gallon of fertilizer solution every time you fertigate for any plants in the soil with gypsum for the first year after establishing the planting.

Al

Al, thanks for responding. I just want to make sure I understand. When I use the Foilage Pro, (but ONLY with the ORIGINAL mix I made with Gypsum) I still want to add the Epsom salt for the first year, but when I make a batch WITHOUT Gypsum, I'm good to go without adding the Epsom salt? Oh I got another question. I just realized I made a boo boo with my Sedum Burro's tail. I put it in too large of a pot for starters, the roots weren't that deep at all (and there wasn't many to begin with) well because I have repotted SO MANY I forgot that they weren't that deep down so when I was feeling the mix for moisture it felt good so I would leave it a few days longer than the rest because I was telling myself too, bigger pot more moisture for roots. But I forgot they weren't that deep :( I'm glad I checked to see if I could fertilize yet by doing your little tug method you had posted a few days ago because it didn't hold in there at all. When I pulled it out they were VERY dry (OBVIOUSLY me forgetting the roots weren't that deep that I needed to water more) they were black on some spots like rot (there were three rooted pieces that came from the nursery pot) my question is what happens when roots get dry is it supposed to look like rot? The black was where the roots met with the flesh of the stem. And it may of had some black through the roots (but i believe that was soil stain from the soil it was in before the repot) otherwise if I wouldn't of done the tug test I wouldn't of even known the plant itself looks good (I cut the ends to let dry out then reroot) plus I'm not going to lie here, I've been having to travel for work so it was adding four hours of drive time EVERY day. So I was tired and told myself (with the succulents) they can handle it if I water "tomorrow" they're succulents. (Which might of taken a day or two more to ACTUALLY water) I've tugged the rest. (I was worried I killed ALL THEIR ROOTS) I know this is REAL long, I'm sorry. I'm just wondering if I screwed up besides just "not watering in time"? Did I cause rot some how too? Or is that normal when roots dry out? It's been a LONG day I'm SOOO tired so I know Im rambling. I really appreciate the time you take to answer my questions (and EVERYONE else's) and please don't think I'm unhappy with the mix I'm unhappy with myself for letting it go "for another day" that ended up taking longer than that ONE day. I'm making my own head spin! Lol. I hope you have a WONDERFUL evening! I have a date with Mr. Sandman that I can't wait to start!!! Lol ð´

Succulents can stand more abuse, but a few are very sensitive. You could have root rot usually caused from overwatering. But the plant was dry, so maybe not?
If rot progresses into plant, you may still be able to save it. You might want to propagate a new plant using a cutting. Let the cutting dry a day, and don't root it in the gritty mix. Anything else would be better.
Your cultivar is a cool plant but is super sensitive to overwatering. It likes sun, but not extreme heat. I have been growing succulents for 40 years. Good luck!
I myself do not like the gritty mix, but a mineral mix is a very good choice for this cultivar. So it should grow well once it adjusts.
Everyone has their ways of doing things. I myself would use Schultz 20-20-20 and ammonium sulfate as a fertilizer. For trace elements I would use azomite mixed in the soil. But not really needed Schultz has all micronutrients needed. This combination gives a perfect ratio for succulents.
This is what expert cacti growers use. I feel confident with their advice.
Use 1/2 tsp of Schultz 20-20-20 per 2.5 gallons, with 1/4 tsp of ammonium sulfate.

I would not fertilize the plant at all when dormant.
You may need to adjust ratios depending on mineral or humus mix. Humus mixes need more fertilizer.

If you wish to see results of growers using these products, and other alternative methods check out the link. Note the mineral mix used by the grower. It is perfect for your plant.

Here is a link that might be useful: Xerophytic Plant Growth

One of the major mistakes I see over and over is the one size fits all solution. Every plant species is different. Each has different soil and nutritional needs.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 7:11

It's actually driving me nuts!! To say the least. And people bare root plants and send them (I have NEVER bought one that had to be shipped to me) I drove two hours to a particular nursery quite a few times to get plants that I wanted. They were potted. So let's say you purchase from someone online.....does the plant have to be rerooted? I'm just curious how long roots take to typically DRY OUT? I've been tinkling too that the roots weren't in the best shape when I bought it. They were in a soggy VERY peaty mix and didn't have a whole of roots to begin with. This is my first burros tail so I thought that the root system on them was typically shallow to begin with and that being in the soggy mix from the nursery didn't help much? Thanks for any help!

I don't think Drew has ever actually used the gritty mix, but he's an expert when it comes to dispensing information about it.

The ratios of nutrients (one nutrient to another) that plants actually take up covers only a narrow range. Snapdragons, sequoias, sunflowers, and sedum all use nutrients in very close to the average ratio of 10:1.5:6, and after the factoring is done for how P and K are reported, 3:1:2 ratios come closer, by far, to furnishing nutrients in the most favorable ratio. 1:1:1 ratios like 20-20-20 aren't even close, and all the soluble fertilizers manufactured in 1:1:1 ratios that I've seen lack several elements ESSENTIAL to normal growth, which is a more critical consideration for container culture than for growing in the ground.

Some people are fond of suggesting something SPECIAL for every plant, and it's usually the plant they like best or 'specialize in' they consider unique in all the world, but it isn't. In many ways, plants are all very much alike. As far as each plant needing its own special care regimen, that's not true. Some growers mistake what plants will tolerate for what they like. A huge % of plants all want pretty much the same thing - a happy home for roots, the right amount of air and water in the soil, and a fertilizer program aimed at ensuring that all the nutrients plants normally secure from the soil are in the soil solution at all times, in the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrients, and at a concentration high enough to ensure no deficiencies yet low enough to ensure the plant isn't impeded in its ability to take up water and the nutrients dissolved in water.

If suggesting Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 as a grower's 'go to' fertilizer is off the mark, I wonder why so many have so much success with such a wide array of plant material when using it?

When someone says something like, "Let the cutting dry a day, and don't root it in the gritty mix. Anything else would be better", they are clearly telling you they have an agenda. Obviously "Anything else would be better" is untrue, and a rather desperate attempt at stopping you from trying the gritty mix. Woulds MG be better? perlite? chopped leaves? fine sand? ..... all would be a part of "anything else would be better .....".

***************************************************************

You understood the Epsom salts suggestion correctly.

I would attribute the black roots to the plant having been over-watered in the past, and not necessarily the immediate past. I've seen many succulents with the root system rotted completely off and the rest of the plant looking ok for months after the damage. Usually, those plants can be rerooted and the plant restored to good vitality in an appropriate soil, using good watering habits. A picture would be nice.

Take care.

Al

Al,

Your mixes work, I just prefer my own. Simple as that.
Feel free to root in the gritty mix, but I would think it would be best to use something else.
I love foliage pro it's excellent. I just don't use it for succulents because of specific research. It will perform well with succulents, no doubt. And could be used. Since it was ordered I would use it. If you want perfection, you need to consider PH, so using the method I mentioned will give you better results long term. Foliage Pro will kill blueberries, so again feel free to try the one size fits all. One should come to their own conclusions. The main reason I don't use Foliage Pro with succulents, is the math needed to figure the optimum dose. With 20-20-20 it's easy.
Taking a cutting is just insurance. I would try to save the plant. It's a very cool plant. Nice choice!
I have a sedum too, it's hardy in Michigan. I one day will add more winter hardy succulents. I would like to get more sedums, but I have been growing edibles more and more. I will add some once I move. Here is my plant. Flowers will turn pink shortly.
This plant attracts more bees than any other plant I have. I use many annuals to attract beneficial insects, but this perennial is awesome. I love this plant! It's one sedum that can take a lot of abuse too. I don't have the species handy at the moment, but it's a common plant.
Oh found info Sedum spectabile. Other cultivars exist, Sedum spectabile 'Brillant' is red, nice one!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Mon, Aug 18, 14 at 11:53

Thank you Al. I'll take a picture when I get off work. Of course I'm going to use the gritty because I LOVE IT!!! I have seen the changes in ALL my plants except this one that is OBVIOUSLY MY FAULT. I'm just curios to know how long roots take to generally dry out like that? I mentioned above this is the FIRST time growing this plant and I noticed it didn't have much in the way of roots when I repotted in the gritty (I was hoping it would be enough) I should have done a little more research on this plant when I noticed the roots. I have already cut the ends off (I might have them in the trash still or I flushed I can't remember which) but either way I will check the trash. Finding the roots LITERALLY happened RIGHT b4 I posted the message last night contains the info on it. I haven't put cuttings or anything that hasn't had roots already (except for obviously this plant lol which had very little) do you have any suggestions on how I should go about it? How often watering in gritty with NO ROOTS? Or do I mist like I do with my leave cuttings? Do I lay on top of the mix or dig it in? I just don't want to screw up again lol. I could kick myself for doing that! I wasn't trying to start conflict, being on here for ONLY a few months I've noticed teeth and claws come out when people start talking soil. I'm not trying to cause any problems I appreciate EVERYONES advice this I believe was my mistake not the mix. I probably shouldn't of repotted seeing the condition of the roots to begin with. Thanks for EVERYONES help :)

No worries litbit, no conflict here. Good luck and keep us updated. I'm here to learn too. Your expierence with this plant is helpful!

Thanks! I appreciate it!! And I DO APPRECIATE your advice!! :)

How long a plant's roots take to dry out depends on the plant. There are plants that can be completely dry - no roots in the soil whatsoever, for 100 years ..... and the roots resprout as soon as they find moisture. Other plants have roots that, once dry, are goners. I have pruned Aeoniums and left the rosettes with some stem attached on the work bench for an entire winter (Jan to first of May). The plants grew roots (in the air) from the stem and the cut end of the cuttings, and the 4-5 month old cuttings took right off as soon as planted.

Because the gritty mix is so well-aerated, the top dries out faster than other soils, so that needs to be taken into account when you water. If you pot a plant whose root mass is only 3" deep, you need to make sure the top 3" of soil stays moist until the roots colonize a larger fraction of the soil. That might mean you'll have to water every day for a while - until the plant gets its feet under it. Sedum can generally be laid atop the soil and it will develop adventitious roots (if not already present) and put them down into the soil. Ideally you'd be able to use a stream of water from a spritz bottle to wet the soil surface and not the plants.

Al

Usually when a plant is shipped bare root, the roots are protected, so you will not need to regrow. if you're thinking of ordering plants. I get bare root plants all the time. i actually prefer bare root.

If you root a cutting, or have removed all roots from this plant. leave it dry out a day before rooting. Putting a plant with a fresh cut in soil, even gritty mix could kill the plant, it will rot.

I left them sitting out all night. I really could kick myself! (Unfortunately for me, I usually learn the hard way lol) it could've been ALOT worse. It could've been unsalvagable. (I'm sure I would've noticed something b4 that would've happened though) well.... Thank God I emptied ALL The garbage cans yesterday! Lol at least I didn't have much trash to look through! I didn't actually find these in the garbage (I apparently flushed the rest of it but missed these) I was REALLY TIRED (still am) I don't know how much you're gonna be able to see but here goes!! Thanks again!!

Here's the cuttings I was wrong there was only two the little one I had to cut off because it was by the bad part

Thank God for zoom on cameras!!! I didn't even see this b4 (my eyes MUST be getting WORSE) so just stick in gritty mix and mist EVERY day?

Wow, it's in bad shape! I don't like the way that one on the left looks. It may be OK, maybe not!? The far right stem looks like it wants to rot too argh! Good luck buddy!

Ok now I KNOW I'm REALLY tired. I'm losing it! Lol there was another cutting apparently I put it in with clippings to try and get it to root I believe why I did it was it dry?? I have NO IDEA. I told ya I was tired I've been working WAY TO MUCH! :(. So please excuse my MULTIPLE brain farts! Lol my brain should hopefully be back to Normal IF and WHEN I get a good night's sleep! Lol so here's the other one

Believe it or not then I first took them out of the nursery pot, where the roots were looked woody almost it does look worse though. Cut farther up? Do where their roots connect get woody looking? I'm gonna have to cut ALL THAT CRAP OFF huh? I swear nurseries shouldn't a be able to sell succulents in peat!! Well here's the pic of the middle of the stem. I know what happened now I think. It was ALREADY rotting because I remember thinking wow that looks odd but they weren't black (one spot on one stem like a freckle size was) the roots WERENT slimy just not ALOT of them. Never having these I just assumed they were kind of woody looking like jades. So what now? I know I cut ALL of it off. But how far up should I take the leaves off to have a long enough stem?

You can see adventitious roots forming already on the cuttings. Use a fresh single edge razor blade to trim the proximal/basal end of the cutting to sound tissue, then let the cuttings rest in the shade for a few days before you situate them on top of the soil. You can remove a few fleshy leaves after you trim the basal end of the cutting so you have enough stem to hold the plant in place. A light misting of the soil is all you need to get the plant started.

Al

Well I had one more that I had to switch to the gritty mix so I started the tedious task. Now I'm thinking that I washed MOST of the other plants roots away thinking they were soil?! I have NEVER seen a root system (or ball SO thing and week looking) of course I obviously didn't know what h3!! I was doing...... So here's the pic of it. I'm sure there's still SOME soil in there bcuz there's perlite still there but wanted to see what you thought. They are not slimy just looks like soil but I can see fine hairs on it. I'm worried that if I'm wrong I'll it'll retain too much water. Whatcha think? I know some soil is still there but can a root system be THAT DELICATE? To still look like soil?

Thanks Al just saw your post. If it's not supposed to have woody looking stems it had rot before I even bought it. Am I right thinking these are roots? This is one of the thickest roots it has they shouldn't be THAT thing right? I'm sorry I've NEVER looked at roots like this until switching to the gritty and this one seems SO thin to me. I'm afraid to wash all of them away.

Oh and how much stem do you think I'll need? So I'm going to LAY it on TOP UNTIL roots grow THEN Go ahead and plant? Sorry I'm literally delirious from lack of sleep! Probably not the best time to play with razor blades lol

I would have teased or rinsed all the old soil off of whatever roots there are before potting in the gritty mix, and wouldn't have been too worried about any damage being done to the roots. It might take a while for the plant to reestablish, but as long as you don't over-water, the plant is very resilient - you can see that by the way it pushes adventitious roots into the air w/o a speck of soil in sight.

Al

I didn't pot it up. After taking a toothpick to see if I could seperate I found I still has LOTS of soil left lol I think part of my problem is over exhaustion my eyes aren't working to good lol. I'm probably going to send you an email tomorrow. I know you're a VERY busy man. I understand if it takes you quite a while to read but I have been thinking about something and want to see if I'm right but don't want to TOTALLY EMBARRASS myself in front of TONS of people that might be like "DUH" and after I get a descent sleep maybe my own brain will answer it for me lol (or confirm atleast) ðÂÂÂ
Have a wonderful night Al and everyone!! Thanks for answering my questions and being patient with my problems that might seem very simple to someone else. You are a VERY KIND MAN!!! I only wish I could have a 1/4 of your knowledge on plants lol then maybe I wouldn't drive you CRAZY!!! Lol. Goodnight!

Al please bare with me. But the ONLY root ball I've EVER seen is on my jades. (Well apparently my other burros tail) but I thought it was soil. On my jades it's very easy to tell they're roots this to me looked like soil so I washed it away ;the first one) there are two pieces to this plant one I washed a little more. How are you supposed to be able to tell whats roots and what's soil? Especially when they've been in soil and roots can't get stained by it? So do you think they're ok? Or should I wash the WHOLE rootball away like I did with the first one which didn't work out so good lol

Here's the other

Great Work, Lilbit!!

Looks like you are getting right into this. I'm impressed!!

Keep up the good work...foliage pro is a great fertilizer and is great for use on all plants and trees. I don't grow blueberries, so,I can't say anything about those delicious berries!! But for everything else including Cactus, I use FP

Some of my Plumeria come bare rooted from Thailand and I will pot up into gritty or 5-1-1 and water well.. Some come with spag. Moss ( moistened). I take it off and pot up. Never missed a beat.

I use Foliage Pro on all of my trees and plants and it is a wonderful fertilizer for me. I did use it on my tomatoes last year and I had a great yield. Just didn't have time this year.. To many things happening in my life.. Maybe next year!!

Adeniums love FP. So do Plumeria and my other exotics..conifers, cactus , etc.. I would not go without it. So simple yet it has it all... Perfect balance with all essential nutrients too! Helps me greatly since I need that time for work, Family etc!!! ;-)

Nice to see you working so hard.. Please keep posting... ;-). You will be happy....

Enjoy!!

Laura

I don't know about jades or burros tail, but I got a cutting of an aloe from my dad. Stuck it in gritty mix and used FP, and the thing grew so much and so fast I thought it would explode!

I brought it to show my dad, a gardner for 9/10 of his 85 years on this planet, and he was as amazed as me!

Rooting in Gritty works VERY WELL! and I also use TurfAce shakings (the stuff that goes through the window screen) with a humidity dome as a rooting medium.

As you work more with your plants and start repotting them, you'll start to see that the roots of different plant species vary in appearance. some will be fleshy and white, others fine, stringy, and brown. You can see in your pictures that your plants' roots are fleshy and off-white, so the peat moss fibers your soil is comprised of should show pretty significant variation from the appearance of the roots. The two pictures in your post above show plants ready to plant. You could prop them up on the soil now, and lightly cover the roots, or strip a few lower leaves off the plant, wait a few days - leaving the cuttings in the dry shade, and then plant. All in all, it's a plant that's so forgiving it's hard to go too far wrong, unless by over-watering.

Laura always has good insight, and is widely known, even outside the continental US, for the quality of her plants ..... and not just her plumeria; ALL her plants are very healthy and attractive.

Al

Thanks EVERYONE!! I thought I was loosing my mind! Lol. I ALMOST washed it ALL away EXCEPT for the few LONG WHITE ones lol. (I did do that to the first one not knowing it was the rootball). I appreciate ALL your help I'm so sorry if I drove everyone crazy with it. This is my FAVORITE plant EVER and took me a few years to find it. (I didn't know that you could order plants on-line lol) I was trying SO hard to find a picture of their rootballs so I would know. The only thing that would come up was pics of the plant lol. I appreciate all the encouragement Laura! It means SO much to me!! ð (ESPECIALLY when I thought I was doing something wrong) thanks again! -Christy

Foliage Pro has nitrates and blueberries can't handle nitrates. They lack a good carrier enzyme. It can build to toxic levels. Horticulture 101 stuff. I love Foliage Pro too, use it all the time, just not on succulents as better methods exist. I want to use what's best for the plant. So I do. I trust the data by famous succulent growers, probably the most famous ever came up with the method. .
Elton Roberts is recognized by universities and is very famous. So I'm glad you guys have good results, but I trust Elton's decade long studies and work. He has been working with succulents since 1970. So has decades of data to back his techniques.

All said here is anecdotal, and means nothing at all to me. It's not proof. My bad for being a laboratory scientist. I was taught the scientific method and stick to it. 3 people's word against decades of research, I know what I'll choose for feeding my succulents.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Aug 19, 14 at 13:25

Drew51
Perhaps your ideas and opinions would be better received if they weren't delivered with such vehemency do discredit others, and delivered in such a condescending manner.

My bad for being a Psychologist, Just saying...

It's interesting to note that I rooted Jade cuttings in my Moro Blood Orange container - and fed those cuttings once a week with full strength Foliage Pro when I fertigated my Moro. Those Jade cuttings grew better than any other Jade I've grown and were ready to be re-potted and sent off to my brother in record time.

Foliage Pro is fairly mild at 114 ppm Nitrogen at full strength, so I see no problem using this excellent and complete fertilizer for all succulent needs. If one is skittish about burning their plants, then simply reduce the strength of the dose to 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 (if fertilizing with each watering).

Josh

I think what's important to understand is, it's a good thing to help people build a solid methodologic (is that a word, Josh?) foundation they can rely on to consistently produce healthy plants. I try to explain everything I suggest so people can see it's backed by sound science and not the result of something I read somewhere that sounds good so I start telling everyone that's what I do, whether I do it or not. Explaining things in a way that allows growers to follow the reasoning to a logical conclusion gives them the confidence to take something of a leap of faith. Few growers have ever complained about the results they can get with a well-aerated soil and a fertilizer that provides nutrients in a ratio very close to that at which the plant uses them ..... so it's always my hope that growers will choose something proven as their starting point, and look at that starting point as something they can always return to if their experimenting goes awry and doesn't yield the results expected.

One serious issue is the grower who reads things that sound good, and tries to incorporate all of these things into his growing regimen - almost always to his/his plants' disadvantage. I have a good friend I was helping several years ago, and I almost had to tell him I'm not going to do it any more as long as you try to incorporate everything you hear on the net into what you're doing. He stopped, got down to basics, and is now one of the better growers here, judging by his plant material.

Growing well can be exceptionally EASY if you get just a few things right. Good light and temperature, a good soil and watering habits (are key), good nutritional supplementation .... and you can grow at least 95% of the plants discussed on GW, very well - even the plants 'specialists' tell you, "You can't grow it that way"!

What people do after they have a sound base is less important to me than ensuring they have the knowledge they need to get that good start. Drew can rethink things and theorize all he wants, but the truth is, he probably just read what he posted a few days ago and now it's the best thing since the beginning of time.

Thousands of GW growers use Foliage Pro 9-3-6 as their go to fertilizer. I think I'm a little better than the average grower at keeping plant material happy, and FP has served me better than anything I've used, and I DO use it as a 1-size fits all. So what? I've never found anything better, and for what little extra I might squeeze out of my plants by tailoring my nutritional supplementation on a per plant basis, I just don't have the time.

I know what will work, and I know it works as well for others as it works for me, because it's not a complicated process and the feedback from all across the forum supports what I share as sound advice.

Al