Wow! That's beautiful, Mike!

There's a lot to be said for concentrating effort on what's below the soil line! Healthy roots do make for healthy plants!

Good growing, Mike! :-)

Good job, Mike!!

Yes, I remember that particular thread, almost 2 years old. Much of the advice given was based on the mistaken idea that all you need do to green up leaves and return a chlorotic plant to health is add iron sulfate.

Back then, you didn't understand nearly as much as you do now about soil chemistry, and it was your habit to accept without question, much of the advice offered to you at face value ..... sort of like "Well, this or that person says they have a million plants they've been growing for 100 years, so they have to be credible - right?" I used to watch you spending a LOT of time chasing your tail because you tried to incorporate everything everyone said into your own efforts. ;o) Moving to the present, I think you've come to see that not everyone has a good feel for where their limits lie, with many more than willing to dispense advice in an offhand manner w/o the ability to see the potential consequences of that advice.

You were assured that 1/2 ounce of iron sulfate in a gallon of water would allow you to avoid chlorosis altogether, and that it would be a good idea to use it as a prophylactic (as a preventative measure) at 2-3 month intervals.

Consider the questions: What if it was a N or Mg deficiency causing chlorotic foliage? Both do, and adding FeSO4 isn't going to cure it. What if it really DID green up the foliage, wouldn't it then be masking the N or Mg deficiency? In soils with bark, or when using soluble fertilizers, like MG or FP, it's a near certainty there is ample iron IN the soil, just that it may not be available because of insolubility due to high pH. You've come to know what acidifying the irrigation water slightly can do for you - doesn't it make better sense to add a little vinegar to the irrigation water to make what is already there, available, rather than add massive doses of Fe, not understanding there is ample Fe IN the soil already? What about the well known antagonism between Fe and Mn? Adding Fe (1/2 oz of FeSO4/gallon is a very large dose) in significant quantities w/o adding Mn can/will create an antagonistic deficiency of Mn. Plants have trouble 'telling' some nutrients from others. If the balance of Fe:Mn is skewed heavily toward Fe, the plant won't get enough Mn, so you can easily CREATE a deficiency in trying to 'cure' another.

I've never been a fan of the willy nilly adding of this or that element or compound specifically targeted to alleviate a perceived deficiency of a single nutrient. In most cases, you're going to cause more harm than good.

Anyway, I see you questioning things much more now, and approaching your growing efforts in a much more analytical manner. You've worked very hard and come a long way in the years since I met you. You're a good man with a big heart; I feel blessed to be your friend.

Al

Hear, hear! Great job, Mike!

I have only one Gardenia, and it doesn't look nearly as nice!

Josh

It's funny you should mention all that, Al... the husband and I were just talking about taking advice from message boards last night. It's better to take the advice of the person who has the most "thank you" responses, and not necessarily the one who posts the most or has been posting the longest.

The guy or gal with the largest following, and the most thank you's for providing the answers that work is the guy or gal to accept advice from. And in the case of gardening, one still must temper any advice with a little logical thinking and common sense, regarding differing environments.

When you don't have any experience or haven't yet learned the facts of what you're trying to do, it's all too easy to take poor advice unknowingly. And there are so many untruths and wives tales in gardening, it's easy to be led astray. We don't all live in comparable climates, so unless the advice is purely generic, there's no way to be sure it will work for everyone.

Anyway... I think we've all come a long way under the tutelage of Al... and I think the monumental amount of thank yous speak for themselves! Here's one more, though... thanks! :-)

Yes, Mike... your plants are lovely! They really show the care and knowledge you put in!

Here is a few more thank you's to Al and another for you Jodik!

Those comments and the words that you have expressed Al mean a lot to me since I have always considered you as my teacher..Thank you..-)

Hey Josh, thank you for your comments and encouragement too..It has been wonderful knowing you, as well as Al, and my dear dear friend Jodi!

You always make sense Jodik and know how to put in words many things I think of..Great post..

Mike...:-)

Mike,
It is beautiful and has come a long way!
Great job!

I'll add my thanks to Al too. :)
And the rest of you here that have helped me along the way and have learned well from Al.
Thanks Friends. :)
JoJo

Jojo..I remember a time when you didn't even know Al and didn't even post at the containers forums..I remember when I met you and wanted you to meet our friend sheer so bad..

I am so happy you did and look at all you have accomplished in the meantime..

I too am very proud of you and too know you....We are all connected some how through our success in growing and a very good friend, tutor...

Thank you for your kind comments too..

Mike

Beautiful Mike!! Great job growing it...thank goodness for Al!! Our poor plants would be lost without him...the only one that is hurting are the nurseries and big box stores, I'm not buying as many plants as I used to replacing all the ones I've killed because of the poor(MG)peat potting mix I used to use,lol...Don't get me wrong, I'm still buying plants...just not replacing the dead ones I've killed. I'm not perfect, I still lose a plant or two...but much, much better success now with the gritty mix. Thanks Al!

Enjoy them Mike!

Thanks, Jodi. The thank yous and positive feedback are always important to me, but I've always said I get the most gratification from the feeling that I have somehow contributed to the growing experience of someone in a positive way. Thank yous are a nice way to express appreciation, but it's the success stories that are offered after the fact that really make me smile - yours being one. :-)

It's natural for everyone to want that feeling - to know their advice is being accepted as sound, and to feel like they have helped. They will even fight for the right, some more than others.

As a glazing contractor (I own a glass company) I frequently deal with church committees. More often than not, it's a nightmare. No one can make a decision, and every one is convinced their approach/suggestions are best and will fight to get them accepted. Give me a strong pastor who knows what he wants and is not frightened to make a decision, please.

The forums are little different. In many cases, egos are easily bruised when someone doesn't agree with someone else. One person or the other usually finds themselves at a factual disadvantage. By that, I mean one or the other runs out of facts, or the facts were never there to support a claim in the first place. Ideally, that point should be the end of the debate, with the person short on facts capitulating or just disappearing. In reality, the person on the short end often turns to other tactics. We see things like changing the subject, introducing multiple other subjects so a tangential line can be taken, starting a new argument that avoids the weak position on the original topic entirely, or personal affront. I get them all, on a pretty regular basis. Usually, they come from the same quarter, over and over, and are either intentional or come from some one habitually operating at beyond the limits of their knowledge.

I'm always, always willing to discuss in depth and support anything I say on the forums. I don't change the subject, and I am always far more civil than I'm treated in debate. If I realize I'm on shaky ground when posting, I let people know. IOW, I work very hard at providing only scientifically sound and well-reasoned advice.

To be fair, there is often more than one way to get from A to B. Both ways may work equally well, sometimes not. If a disagreement regarding the best way comes about, I guess I expect reasonable people to make a case for what they are suggesting and let others do the same, then let the forum and/or original poster decide what they think is best. This format decidedly favors those who know what they are talking about and aren't on an excursion that has taken them beyond their limits in the knowledge and experience dept. I've found that a good tip-off that someone is short on facts is when they start marching out their credentials and years of experience. Why not just convince those listening with your command of the subject matter. It's the fastest and best way to enhance your credibility.

Personally, I don't care if people want to argue, as long as they argue fairly and stick to the topic/facts. I don't care if someone presents an alternate view and supports it well. It's much easier to find common ground with someone willing to work for their credibility, than someone who demands it w/o earning it. Because I very rarely comment on a thread unless I'm 10 ways sure of what I'm posting, I'm hard to shake in a debate. Some people can't deal with that, and would hate me if we were in heaven. I feel bad about that, and it doesn't have to be that way; hatchets can be buried.

I smile when I think that at one point, many years ago, our Justaguy harbored a LOT of animosity toward me because I frequently disagreed with him. I didn't change anything - just kept plugging along as usual, and gradually, I might have first earned begrudging respect for my efforts and the reliability of the information I provided. From there, we gradually started exchanging mail and became pals. Before he left, I don't think we had disagreed on anything for a long, long time - certainly more than a couple of years.

Some will never give that respect - no matter what. I can live with that though, and it really doesn't upset me. I mentioned the other day, that I'm not here to hold hands with those who go out of their way to make me look bad and make things miserable, or to chase them around the forums to see if I can get a jab in here and there. I really am here to help anyone who needs and wants it. If anyone reading this can find it in their heart to see it that way, I would be very appreciative.

Al

Thanks, Mike. It was your dime - hope it's ok. ;o)

Pug..:-))))))

Come to think of it, I haven't been replacing any myself either..lol..
In fact, I find myself giving many away because I can't seem to kill the ordinary plants that I am replacing with unusual and rare ones...For me this is a big leap and great accomplishment, since I would kill any plant I bought from even Home Depot!
I just need to know when to water the ones that retire longer than others, especially this time of year, even if they are bone dry, like my cactus..Help!..lol

Hope you have a good night, and you are another I thank for knowing this long, and being there for me too..You are a perfect friend..

Mike

Hearing what you say is always worth more than a "dime"..

Thank you for your post as always..

We must of posted at the same time..

Remember when I disagreed with you on many things and continually poked at you? Your patience has always been something I could never forget..How can I not respond to that..

Now I find myself disagreeing with many who like to grow in muck, or spinning heads when I talk about how soil works in containers with anyone who works at my local nurseries,,lol

I have yet to meet anyone in my local area who can keep exotic and rare plants in optimal condition, or at least alive growing in bagged soils..There might be one, but the percentage of those failing their plants in my area is comparatively higher, much higher than those who succeed..My friend that runs the Bonsai shop won't even touch citrus or gardenias with a ten foot pole..He says they are hard to deal with and keep healthy, even in his greenhouses...Now that he has switched to a grittier mix, he might change his mind..:-)

Good night and sleep well.

Mike

It's always been my understanding that even opinion is based in fact. I mean, most people generally arrive at an opinion through reasonable thought brought about by factual information.

However, it seems that more and more, I run into people who base their opinions solely on what they've heard, or what someone else has told them, and instead of using a logical thought process to sort it out to a reasonable conclusion, they simply accept the word they've heard as concrete, and they go around repeating it as though it were gospel.

I'm fond of saying "logic and common sense have left the building", and in some cases, this seems to be true. It leaves me wondering what happened to cognitive thinking and common sense. I mean, some things make sense when you put thought to them... and some things simply don't. There is fact... and then there is fallacy. Information can either be proven, or it can't.

When it comes to giving information or trying to help someone, ego can't play a role. It often does, but it has no place. We're human, and we're bound to err. It isn't a crime to make a mistake, but it should be a whole lot easier to admit to mistakes. It's not painful to say "I'm sorry", or "I don't know".

I happen to know a few people who would never, ever consider admitting they didn't know something or were wrong. For some unknown reason, it's imperative that they always be right. I'll never grasp that notion.

I, myself, wholeheartedly admit that I don't know everything! That's why I'm here! I want to learn! If I had a nickel for every time I said "I'm sorry", I'd border on wealthy! The same goes for "I don't know"!

One of the reasons I listen closely when Al speaks... or writes... is because there's always an explanation to an idea or thought. Al doesn't leave a thought just hanging in mid air. He proves it. He lays out the information in such a way that we're led to a logical conclusion.

In any case, the success stories speak for themselves.

Some people may be happy with "good enough"... I'm not one of those people. I want to know the facts so I can go beyond good enough, and reach perfection... or as close to it as it's possible to get!

Hi, Nance. I didn't miss your post; I was busy typing and didn't notice it until after I'd posted. Thank you very much. You too, Mike. ;o)

Jodi - I agree with what you said, but there are always going to be people who afford themselves the luxury of an opinion w/o the inconvenience of thought, often w/o the inconvenience of feeling obligated to someone who might be relying on the information or advice. To me, it seems like the two facts that should stop us in our tracks when we feel like caving to the temptation to post when we don't have command of the topic, are: We should feel obligated to whoever we are talking to (to be sure our information is true/accurate/reliable .....), and to whoever might be listening in, to be sure that what we say is sound. That, and I know I would be afraid someone who really DOES know what they're talking about will come along behind me and make a fool of me for posting over my head (when I don't know what I'm talking about), and help me destroy my own credibility.

For most people, I think the forums provide a place to learn and to socialize. Everyone doesn't prioritize the same way, so some care more about one than the other. Personally, the forums are more about learning, though I think you can tell that I really enjoy the social intercourse as well. I've made many wonderful friends here and at other sites. I do learn quite a bit in my travels @ GW, but in most cases I tend to slip into more of a teaching role. I know it irks some people who are quick to label the propensity arrogant, but most of the people I'm trying to help seem to appreciate the effort.

Speaking of learning, I thought there to be a considerable amount of sagacity in some of these quotes:

It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. ~Attributed to Harry S. Truman

A single conversation with a wise man is better than ten years of study. ~Chinese Proverb

Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned. ~Mark Twain (good one)

Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

A closed mind destroys the ability to learn. ~ Al

Some people will never learn anything, for this reason, because they understand everything too soon. ~Alexander Pope

The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr. ~Mohammed

I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ;o) ~Winston Churchill

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. ~Henry Ford

You have learned something. That always feels at first as if you had lost something. ~H.G. Wells (Great)

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. ~Dudley Field Malone

Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. ~Thomas Szasz

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. ~Alvin Toffler

You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way. ~Marvin Minsky

People learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what they learned the day before was wrong. ~Bill Vaughan

Particularly poignant as it applies to growing things, because of how rapidly our understanding and technology has advanced, is:

Learning is like rowing upstream: not to advance is to drop back. ~Chinese Proverb

Al

I couldn't agree more, Al. We never stop learning, no matter how old or experienced we get. But if we close ourselves off to new ideas, to learning, it only harms us in the long run.

It occurs to me that as a society, we seem to have lost our sense of moral obligation. We don't seem to think through to the end, to the conclusion that any information we give in an arena such as this has the potential to either help or harm someone in their attempts to garden. Personally, I'd like to know that any information I give will help whomever may be reading... and I'd like to avoid hurting their efforts.

I'm certain I'm guilty of giving some wrong information in the past... premature information, before I actually found out what my results would be... but I'd also like to mention that I went back and corrected that information.

We all make mistakes... but it seems that a portion of society has forgotten that we have a moral obligation to do what's right... and in this case, that would be making certain that what we impart will not harm the gardening attempts of another.

Mike got hammered pretty hard for a slip he made the other day on another forum. I agree that it might have created a problem, but it started me thinking about why people post. Mike was posting from a sincere desire to help people, which is probably the reason easiest to respect. Others often post with their primary concern that their post sounds good and makes them (the poster) LOOK good. You've seen the posts, filled with officious-sounding rhetoric and little substance that might be either right or wrong - no matter. So often, they take no responsibility for the far-reaching consequences of their post. This is wanting to bask in unearned limelight at the expense of the person on the receiving end of the advice/commentary/information. That seems very irresponsible and self-centered to me, and the most difficult type of 'contribution' to respect.

This is a depressing thread. Why did you do it, Mikie? Lol I'm usually a lot more upbeat than this, but posers do wear on me. I'd rather spend hours helping or just talking with someone who knows what he doesn't know, than 5 minutes arguing with someone who only knows 1/10 of what they think they know.

I'm not being pompous. I fully and readily admit there is a lot more I don't know about plants than I do know. It's just that I do happen to know what I don't know, and shut up when I don't know it. Who ends up looking smarter - the guy who shuts up when he doesn't know what he's talking about, or the guy who doesn't shut up until he's already well beyond his limitations? Hmmm? ;o)

Al

Al:

I have not only learned the BEST way to grow my plants in containers, but I have also learned how to grow thick skin, as you have, because you most certainly have had your fare of being hammered too for your sincere desire to help others, and for this I find you eaisist to respect!

Jodi, thanks to you and my many other friends here, I have learned it is ok to make mistakes, and continually learn along the way...

Sometime certain posers do wear on me too, but the few friends I find here make up for the minute few that would otherwise look at all positive..

Thank you Josh and Pug too!

Al, don't find this thread depressing, because our "friends" have been a big part of it and at least many of us always appreciate "accurate", and kind, loving information from people like you.. :-):-):-)

I only found it depressing because I'm usually more positive. As I consider what I've written, it sounds too much like I'm complaining about everyone but me. Not really true. Only a very few fit the descriptions above, and I find almost everyone on the forums a joy to be around. Anyway - time to make the effort to be more positive or shut my trap. ;o)

Al

You are aloud to be human once in a while Al, like the rest of us my friend..We are here for you...Yes, you

Mike

I don't find the thread depressing, per se... what's depressing is that it even needs to be discussed. But I think it's good to occasionally remind each other that it's ok to make mistakes... we're learning along the way... and to remember to take some of the written opinions here with a large grain of salt. Not all of the given advice will be advantageous to follow, and not all of it will be written with righteous intent, as sad as that is to think about.

I've run into a few people on various message boards and forums that claim expert status in some area or other, but when pressed, cannot back up their writings with anything of substance. These same few tend to skim as opposed to thoroughly reading, and they tend to find their own hidden meanings between the lines, even when none exist. They consistently bait other readers, antagonize, and then cry foul when anyone calls them on it.

Most of us post on our favorite message boards and forums because we like to socialize, to learn new things, and to share the knowledge and experience we have accumulated. And most of the people that I've run into have been wonderful folks... more than willing to share, to be patient... really nice people. But within every group, the law of averages says there will be at least one person who posts out of sheer... misery? I don't really know.

But when you have a venue containing so many people trying to express themselves, it's only natural that a grain of salt and a lot of common sense should be used before employing any given advice in your own personal life. At least until you get to know who is honest and ethical and above board, and who is not.

I've been here long enough to separate the honest, ethical, really nice people who want nothing more than to offer help and friendship, from those who post with other intent. And I'm positive that anyone lurking long enough knows all this, too. It doesn't take that long for the cream to rise to the top, and for the fools to sink to the bottom... and in the bulk tank that is GW, that separation takes place rather quickly. All it takes is a little bit of cognitive thinking to make the distinction.