OK!

first .. i don't believe tree spikes are worth the money they cost ....

second.... if you are fertilizing your lawn .. consider that you might be double fertilizing the tree.... and frankly .. unless a soil test indicates something is lacking from your soil ... there really shouldn't be any reason to fertilize a tree ...

next... you don't mention your soil type.. nor how you have determined that the water is actually getting to the root zone of the tree ... adequate water for the lawn may or may not be sufficient as their root zone depth varies so greatly ...

finally ... i planted about 20 oaks ... red, scarlet, black, shingle ... no live oak .. anyway ... of the 20 .. 18 are growing 3 to 5 feet per year.. some on irrigation in the hosta beds.. some free range in pure sand ... cant beat them back with a stick ... these are going on at least 20 feet after 6 years ... from the 6/8 footer that was planted bare root ...

the 19th ... is maybe a 12 footer... struggling for god knows what reason ...

and the 20th ... looks like the day it was planted... puts out leaves... has mulch.. gets water.. and is just sitting there ...i have even tried the baseball bat ... beating it about the head and chest to within an inch of its life.. to allegedly stimulate some release of hormones hoping to increase the growth rate .... noting.. nada.. nil ....

i have come to the conclusion that it is a retard.. and nothing i can do will change its growth pattern ... it will do what it will do when it wants to do it ...

maybe you have its equally retarded brother... or sister .. lol ...

you also don't mention if you planted it.. if so.. was it planted at the proper depth?? and what method did you use regarding the hole .. amendments.. etc ...

if 'they' did it... who knows what is going down under ground.. but we will have to start with whether it is planted at the proper depth ..... can you tell ...????

good luck

ken

PS: seed production MIGHT be a function of a tree that is nearing death .... or not .... as there are many other causes ...

I would stop the tree fertilizer spikes. It probably has more acorns because it is trying to reproduce itself before it dies. Can you post some photos of the overall tree, and of the trunk right at the ground?

Wow guys thanks. Well I live in Central Florida and it is a new home. So as far as soil Type I am Guessing Mostly Sand, and any Debri They use to fill in the holes before laying the Sod.

There is an Oak about 6 ft. away on the otherside of the sidewalk that is flourishing. Considering all the money I have spent on Fertilizers and Care, I think I may be more of a retard than the tree. By the way...Is that your feelings on all Miracle grow products?

And if is in the process of making its "Final Arrangements," is there a way to tell? I know we just shook my Grandmother violently to see if she would respond. Should I do the same with the tree. Kidding ofcourse

Your last post may offer a clue- "and any debris they used to fill in the holes..." I once had a 'dead zone' in my yard- nothing would grow there. I tested the soil w/ a cheap tester, and the alkalinity was off the chart (literally). I poked around to find I was trying to garden in concrete waste! The soil chemistry may be out of whack. But then- I planted two oaks at the same time- one is twice as big, but rarely has acorns; the other, smaller tree is loaded with them. I also planted two camphors side by side, and they are very different trees, both in size and shape.

"feelings on all Miracle grow products"

They certainly do a miracle grow job. On the bank account of the director of the Miracle grow Company. But not anywhere else.

Resin

Ah, Miracle Grow, one of my (least) favorite topics! At this point in time, this company has either merged with or bought out Scotts. Therefor, a very wide range of products is now offered under the Miracle Grow badge. Everything from the tree fert. spikes you bought (Completely bogus) to high-end professional products like Osmocote (very good). So the problem isn't that it's necessarily bad stuff, the problem is that by bombarding everyone with the largest ad campaign in the biz, it has shifted many folks perception toward thinking its products are something special. They are not.

Now about those spikes. Why, I ask you, would it benefit a tree, or any plant, to have an extremely high concentration of fertilizer salts placed in one little area of soil, and none elsewhere, 'til the next spike placement. Far better to simply sprinkle granular fertilizer on the soil surface evenly, or use water-soluble types and water in. I can't believe people still buy those things. I must have known they were bogus what, thirty years ago!!!

As to your one tree's poor performance, I think the folks above suggesting perhaps a soil problem stemming from buried debris are on the right track. And sorry to reiterate, but the presence of all those acorns is probably nothing to cheer about.

+oM

So, do you recommend digging up this little tree, glearing the hole, refilling it with dirt and replant? If yes..

1) How Deep
2) What should I refill it with
3) Is this the right time of year
4) if it is on its last legs could this save it?

I sure do appreciate all this help folks

Get rid of that live oak and plant something with some leaves on it. Like sugarberry, turkey oak, shumard oak, sycamore, american elm, sweetgum and so on and so forth.

There is no general reason to think a tree won't need to be fertilized. Either yours is getting what it needs or it isn't, same as with any other kind of plant. Another thing that could hold it back is competition from grass, you want to give it a 6' or more wide area free of turf during its early years.

I had two pathetic fig trees untll I got a soil test kit and discovered we had no nitrogen in the soil. I have added a half-cup of ammonium nitrate fertilizer sprinkled aroiund the tree line, just before approaching rains. I am amazed at the difference it has made in these three-year old trees. You wouldn't know they were the same trees. Same goes for a couple of puny crepe myrtles, too. You might try the soil test kit. I know a lot of folks here at the forum will say they aren't any good, but I now have two happy fig trees.

I am not a Pro, How do I test my soil?

testing is done by the closest STATE college... perhaps Florida State... most such colleges where formed under Ag grant in the mid to late 1800's... farmer schools... go figure ...

look in the white pages under USGVMT ... and contact the local Ag agent or soil conservation district ... and inquire about the tests.... maybe 10 bucks.. have a pro do it ... some grad student soil nut ...

or you can buy a self test at a good yuppie nursery .... and rely on your own expertise ....

on my 5 acres... if a plant is in a primo location.. and under performing ... i move it to the back 4 ... why waste it ... and moving it may solve the planting depth issue... etc ...

and then buy something else for the primo location... or better yet ... move the primo location 10 feet in some other direction.. as perhaps there is a problem with that spot ...

i swear trees cover half the earth ...and 99.99999999999% of them never get fertilizer [man made or provided] ... other than that which they produce themselves ... and they prosper greatly .. gods plan at work ...

why in the world do you think your trees are so special that they need something from you ... that really is the bottom line ... planted properly.. and watered for the first year or two.. since we ripped it from the earth to put it in front of your house ... in good soil .. your tree should need nothing else EVER ....

now once we go in there.. and build a house.. bulldoze the earth ... etc.. and perhaps ruin the soil ... we have to determine what the problem is ... simply pouring fert on the tree is simplistic ... a marketeers dream customer ...

first we ID the soil structure and content.. and then we act accordingly ... make sense????

have a great day ...

ken

i know a lot of people who would pay good money for a dwarf oak .... my friends are weird .. lol ...

just because you don't like it... doesn't mean its worthless ...

ken

Ken...Just the opposite!!! I do like it, I do value it, I never had any plans of just killing it off! I am merely asking you pro's some methods of bringing it back. I unfortunately am a weekend warrior at your Big Chain home and Garden centers, and I base much of my newbie horticultural decisions based on Ads, and Product placement.

Jed

Jed:

Good question. Go to the website below that describes the Florida Cooperative Extension Service and select your county. In Florida, the service managed by the University of Florida and Florida A&M.

You can pick up soil sample boxes (or maybe they will send them to you). Follow the directions for getting a sample or two. Mail the box. (In Virginia, we send soil samples to Va Tech. The cost is $7.) You'll receive a report with info about your soil and what you need to do if anything to improve it.

You can buy soil sample kits at places like HD or Lowes but their results are often inaccurate.

As najoba says, many trees fail because the soil lacks sufficient nitrogen. Learn about the Florida Cooperative Extension Service and the services they offer. IMO, they are a wonderful but under-utilized resource.

Pam

Here is a link that might be useful: Florida Cooperative Extension Service by County

In an e-mail OP wrote "Unfortunately the HOA requires a live Oak. "

At the next HOA meeting, suggest that the board members look around town. Live oak is extremely overplanted in florida. Especially the orlando and what is known by the media as "central florida". It's as if people think nothing else grows there. Maybe present some photos of how the neighborhood could look in autumn with the addition of some deciduous trees that can and most definitely do add showy fall color, that would grow much faster enabling the streets to be draped by tree canopy much faster which I know is sometimes a desired thing down there. A lot of times those rules just adopted because that's how the rules come from the builder but there really and truly needs to be a moratorium on live oaks in florida. The only reason new home builders still use them is because they survive in any condition and garbage fill dirt even if they are planted improperly.

As an added bonus, you could show how the neighborhood could look after a disease strikes that effects only live oaks or just for giggles, you could show how the neighborhood could look after a hurricane where all the live oaks would be tipped over in saturated soil like they normally do.

Nitrogen cannot be tested for in your typical soil tests. Extension service tests don't include nitrogen availability.

I just happen to be in the middle of my book "Tree and Shrub Fertilization - Procedings from an International Conference on Tree and Shrub Fertilization". I bought it from the International Society of Arboriculture. This post relates to what I am reading.

There are about 20 papers presented in this "book". I recommend it to all. Each paper concentrates on a certain aspect of fertilziation. Here is a summary of some main points:

-Nitrogen is almost always the limiting nutrient for trees.

-There are no soil tests that accurately measure nitrogen.

-As Ken said, trees in the wild don't recieve man-made nitrogen. However, the difference is most natural trees receive a lot of compost (large amount of leaf litter, etc) in forests that provides nitrogen where landscape trees typically aren't provided this same compost (becuase they are in a lawn setting- leaves blow away, get mowed, etc). The papers suggest either placing compost or slow release nitrogen (granular at the surface - not spikes). There are a lot of charts, graphs, and #s that have been developed on this topic. It is very interesting stuff at least for me - maybe just because I like numbers / graphs.

-Slow release nitrogen in small quantities has only been proven to provide positive effects on trees. It should be placed at the surface in very early spring.

-Overfertilizing and/or fertilizing with quick realease fetilizers (Miracle Gro) can cause a lot of the fertiler to leach into the groundwater. With clay/silt soils, this isn't as much of a concern as sandy soils.

I also contacted many state nurseries inquiring about fertilization. They stated ideas / practices very similar to what I am finding in this book. I plan to make a post about the main findings from these papers - I am only about 1/2 way through right now.

John

john ... does the book address the effects of lawn fertilizer .... applied to a tree IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAWN ...

when i think of john reading a book on fertilization .. i think of tree farms .. and mass production procedures.. where trees are grown for a number of years.. harvested.. and new trees are planted.. etc ... obviously ... fertilization in production is important to any farmer ...

but I will stand by my gut reaction .. that most homeowners.. overfertilize their lawns... falling to marketing pangs that make you think you need 4 major applications per year to have the best lawn .. pshaw i say ... even on my sand ... anyway...

if you fertilize your lawn .. and your tree is in the lawn ... 99.9% of the time you do NOT need to waste money on more fert for the tree ... at this time.. we are wondering about the other .001% and jebs tree ..

now.. rhizo .. if the soil test doesn't include nitro .. how do you get it tested???

jeb .... do you have a digital camera .... and able to post a picture??????

ken

Leaf litters in the wild do not provide nitrogen... at least directly. They just help support very high fungi population not seen in typical lawn residence that is being abused by homeowners and chemicals..

It's just a huge nutrient cycling going on in the wild... Billions of bugs. Full of protein. They die. They get decomposed by fungi and bacteria. They need to be eaten by protozoa and nematodes to release nitrogen and other nutrients to the root zone... Use chemical like round up. Bye bye protozoa. Nutrient cycling comes to a halt...