the buds are the key .... if they start elongating within the next few weeks.. you are all set ...

NEVER fertilizer this tree again .. and if you can.. go remove the ones you put in .... just a waste of money ...

being evergreen ... the insult or injury to the needles occurred last year due to transplant .. or over the winter due to winter burn ....

this springs weather and rain had nothing to do with it ...

and there is nothing to do to fix it ...

you either did not properly water it after transplant perhaps during the heat of summer.. or you stopped watering too early in fall and it went into winter too dry ...

just hold on ... and see what the buds do .... i have plenty of conifers with winter burned needles that are budding out just fine ... i recall when i didn't know better .. try to relax ...

good luck

ken

I suspect the fertilizer spikes are the cause, especially if it took a turn after you put them in the ground.

I never fertilize my conifers. Not a natural medium for them to grow in. It always causes problems.

A soil test is a must before any chemicals or amendments are added to new plantings. Especially when planting expensive conifers. Stay away from nursery advice. Most of the time it's not worth taking to the bank They always want to sell these add ons. It helps their bottom line.

Like Ken says the buds are key. You will know soon enough. I hope the results are positive.

Dave

I need more information:

You say "all of the needles are falling off." Is that true? How many are falling off? If they are not all falling off, where are they mostly falling off? From the top of the tree? From the leader?--if it has a leader. Is this one of those "pendula" cultivars that just flops over and grows along the ground?

Are the needles falling off last year's growth as much as from older growth? In other words, are the needles falling off more in the interior of the tree, or more on the outside?

Are the healthy buds breaking and showing green?

--Spruce

Unless I'm missing something, I can't figure out why you planted it with some of the rootball above the ground, and that's the part where new young roots normally grow from, and it may well have dried out, mulch or no mulch.

i suspect the high planting is a function of clay soil .... and drainage issues ..... right??? ... ken

Thank you everyone for your responses.

The new buds are green and are very prevelant on the tree. I haven't noticed them getting any larger though.

The needles appear to be falling from the inside out if that describes it properly. They are turning and falling off from the trunk outward to the end of the branch. It is happening top to bottom. It appears to be affecting old growth more than the newest growth, but I am noticing it on the newer growth as well.

I am pretty positive that we have watered the tree properly during the summer, but I suppose it is possible that we stopped watering too early in the fall. We had an awfully wet fall and winter though.

I'll try to remove the fertilizer spikes from the ground and I'll take a soil sample in and have it tested.

I planted a little above ground to help with drainage and to get a little better soil. The further down you go the more clay you get to in our yard. So, we mixed some better soil and some composte together when we planted and then covered with a layer of top soil then mulch. So the tree kind of sits up a tad but everything is covered with soil and then mulch.

all conifers lose their needles on their own schedule.. 1 to 3 years .... this is complicated by transplant... and extraordinary winters .. or both ...

here is a picture of a PINE with normal fall yellowing .... which sometimes doesnt show up until spring ... if you look closely .. its all interior ... with last years growth remaining lush and green ... with the buds all set to explode this spring .... ken

{{gwi:453509}}

OK, this is not stress from the unusual weather--I am sorry to say it is something more basic. I am also sorry to say that I am not exactly sure what the problem is. I think there is some possibility that the fertilizer spikes may be the cause and/or the fertilizer for the adjacent hydrangea. I am ignorant of any problem that the iron may or may not cause--sorry!

When did you put the fertilizer spikes in the ground? If it was last spring when you planted the tree, I would be less concerned about them--the tree had a chance to become adapted to the level of fertilizer they were releasing (but I don't recommend fertilizing newly planted trees). If you put those in in the fall or more recently, but before the real wet weather, then I would be real concerned that they may have given the trees a bad overload of fertilizer (chemicals) that they were not able to deal with just as they were nearing the time to break dormancy. This overload may have happened even if they were put in last spring, but it would be less likely.

The pattern of needle loss is disturbing. Yes, it is natural for trees to lose the older needles first, but this is the same pattern that a fertilizer overload would also cause, especially considering that the top of the tree is perhaps more, or at least equally affected. I have seen this before.

What can you do? Well, not much. Of course, remove the spikes. Under most conditions these spikes are harmless, and I won't say they can't do some good in some cases. But for a newly planted tree, used at the wrong time of year, and especially with heavy rain while trees are dormant releasing much to much of the fertilizer all at once, they can cause great harm.

Next, I would drench this tree with what may seem like extreme doses of water (after the removal of the spikes) about once every 4 days or so. You don't want to drown the tree, so be careful not to drench the poor thing continuously--give it a chance to drain well between drenchings. This may help to leach out (wash away) some of the excess fertilizer, if that is in fact the problem. I admit, I can't be absolutely sure, but the symptoms really point me there.

But there is a possibility that the damage to the tree's metabolism has been done and it can't recover. It is good that the buds are showing green--very good--but that the green is not expanding is very bad.

If the tree lives, what I would do about the planting depth is just add a nice layer of topsoil around the tree about 10 or 15 feet or more in all directions. It will not only make up for any problem with the planting depth, but will give the tree much better soil to grow in.

--Well, I wish you and your tree good luck. And don't feel quilty--I know about this kind of problem from my own experience, very painful, of losing a fair number of prized newly planted evergreen trees.

--Spruce

Safis, depending on what you mean by "a few inches above ground", you are right on about planting a little high, especially in heavy soils. In fact, the root flare-the swollen area where trunk emerges from roots-should be at or slightly above ground level. Some specimens have had soil piled up around them in nursery cultivation and so, the top of the root ball may not reflect where the root flare is. If this area has been buried by soil, go ahead and pull it away, without damaging trunk of course. But even if this was the case I don't think it would be causing noticeable problems yet.

Also, many of us, myself included, don't recommend amending the backfill soil. In my case, I think it's a fine practice if a very wide area is going to be treated, not just the immediate planting hole. But here too, I doubt this would be having a negative impact.

Even the spikes, which I have long considered the worst fertilizer delivery system out there, shouldn't be causing this problem, it seems to me. One of the problems with these things is the fertilizer is placed in such a restricted amount of root zone. I just don't think the tree could have taken up enough already to burn it.

I think it's the weather. I'm seeing LOTS of troubled spruce. This started about a year ago. I think there's something that occured in Midwestern weather over the last couple of years that really dealt a blow. My opinion, at least where I live, is that the biggest culprit was consecutive dry, hot growing seasons. The years precip tallied up to near normal, but during the crucial late-spring/summer months, there was continuous moisture deficit in the soil.

Now you mention having had a lot of rain and snow more recently, but could the tree have been pushed into strain by summer drought?

+oM

+oM:

I usually try to hold my peace as much as I can in these forums when I disagree with something that was posted, but here I think I have to voice my disagreement.

For about the last 20 years or so I have been a Norway spruce "nut." Maybe my near obsession with this tree has become apparent in these forums, but I have tried to "cool it," so to speak. It is not that I think it is the most wonderful tree in the world, but it is a fine tree that for many years was much maligned, hence much of my focus on it. I see the tide has turned, and I think the tree is now being properly appreciated. If you look at a number of popular tree books, including Wyman's trees for American Gardens, the AFA Knowing your Trees, and older editions of Michael Dirr's book, you will see what I mean. In fact I called Michael Dirr and we had a long conversation about NS and subsequently his presentation of the tree has become more fair. I think this has been a key turning point for Norway spruce

Anyway, that is a long prelude to may saying that I have studied this tree backwards and forwards, have contacted anyone and everyone I learned had any special interest in it, have read everything I could find about it, excluding a massive amount of European material written in other languages.

In addition, I am on the lookout for Norway spruces everywhere I go. When I see one that has died, I try to find out why. My wife is sweet and patient, but I have at times abused this sweetness when I ask to stop and examine almost any NS tree along the road that might have anything at all unusual about it.

And I have been an avid grower of NS for about 25 years--having planted large numbers and having "inherited" even larger numbers in forest stands.

Well, I have never seen any Norway spruce tree show the symptoms of this tree from any kind of weather whatsoever. Recently in another topic I commented on some spotty browning that I think could be from the weather. But not this. The pattern absolutely fits the fertilizer shock, or whatever you might want to call it.

As for the spkies--yes. they are placed in two specific spots. But consider the soil and the heavy rain. There is most likely a layer of more loamy soil set over a heavier clay soil. If there was heavy rain, these spikes could dissolve rather fast. Then the dissolved chemicals sink down and meet the less permeable clay soil, which they don't sink directly down through. Rather they spread out and sink more slowly. In this way the chemicals could very, every easily affect the entire rooting zone of this relatively small tree. And, a tree this size, I think, according to the directions for these spikes, should have had one spike. But it had two.

Now, I must say I am not 100% sure that the fertilizer is the problem. But the situation/symptoms can easily fit the requirements 100% from everything I have seen.

--Spruce

Well, we were dealt another rainy stormy day yesterday. I went out and took a look at the tree during a break in the rain and the buds are starting to open and expand and there weren't anymore needles just falling off as there had been in the past week or so. Hopefully this is all good news.

I will post a link to some photos of the tree once I find a place to host them. I have a couple of photos of the tree from last spring a few months after it had been planted and then a photo from Easter where it still seemed relatively healthy and then some photos from this past weekend where it seemed to really start to decline.

safis:

I would say you are dfinately "out-of-the-woods," so to speak. If the tree made it to this point there is a 95% or better chance it will survive. The time I had a fertilizer shock problem, those that broke bud and had the new shoots grow, survived. Some of these had some bud loss and some foliage loss, and so were weakened. But they all recovered completely in two or three years, some faster. And yours does not seem as bad as the worst of mone that eventually survived.

--Spruce

try photobucket.com .. its free and easy ...

after you upload.. copy the middle box.. html TAG LINE ... and paste it into the reply box.. upon preview.. if you see it.. we will see it ...

ken

{{gwi:682995}}

Tree a few months after planting.

Yes, a pretty little tree. I see it is erect for now. Which cultivar is it--do you know exactly, or was it just labelled "pendula" or "weeping NS"?

I have studied NS as much as I can but I am still confused about the "weeping" cultivars: which are supposed to grow upright, which are supposed to grow upright after a longer or shorter period of staking, and which will, no matter what, flop to the ground and grow prostrate unless staked for ever.

Those I have tried--4 different cultivars--have flopped over. But then I didn't keep them staked for very long. Last year I got my second frohburg and if it starts to flop I will stake it and stake it and stake it!

--Spruce

Haven't read the entire thread, but it looks like a result of bad drainage and or struggling roots, ie, a balled and burlapped root system that was dug poorly.

Don't do anything. Let it acclimate. Hopefully it will make it.

Spruce - All those pendulous forms if staked long enough should grow upright eventually. Of course the existence of what Bob Fincham describes as 'multiple clones' could result in some that do not. It's impossible to say.

'Frohburg' - I have no idea if it will maintain vertical dominance.

Dax

The tree doesn't even look that bad. Spruceman, with all due repect to your longstanding study of NS, I feel certain that there is something going on with spruce in general, and with NS in particular, where I live. I'm seeing numerous specimens that are hurting, and it came on rapidly, in the last two years. This includes full grown trees that are now suddenly dead or dying.

BTW, I don't think this tree in the original post has anything to do with what I'm talking about. In fact, young trees are about the only class that is free of the malady that I'm describing.

Finally, I have followed NS for decades now. It has also been one of my favorites and I've got the old Dirr where he gives the tree a too-low rating, etc..........and the nurserymen's shying away from this tree for years, etc,etc.......I've been aware of all that. It is encouraging to see a rebound of sorts in popularity.

+oM

All NS in the weeping and pendula culitvars, I should say all that I have delt with, will grow in the vertical position as long as they are maintained in this habit.
There is a period that staking no longer becomes possible unless you have access to a fork lift. As the tree matures the trunk reaches a point where it will support the tree. This is the time to remove the stake if it has grown to the height you are looking for. At this juncture they will again revert to weeping or who knows what.
Depending on the appearance you are looking for, you can train them for that special look that is pleasing to you eye.

Dave

Here is the tree as of this past weekend. About 13 months after the previous photo.
{{gwi:682997}}

Oh, I thought the other was a recent photo. Something definitely got to it but the viable buds are a good sign.

+oM

+oM:

You are seeing a lot of dead and dying NS? No, don't tell me! It is just last year I called Dr. Edwin White at SYNY Syracuse, who knows more about NS for forest plantings than anyone in this country, having directed a series of studies of growth and site factors, etc., and told him that I had been seeing marked improvement in the NS around here and in NJ. We speculated for a few minutes about the reasons. What I saw in NJ was dramatic improvment in a number of trees, including as an outstanding example a fairly old one next door to my father's house. And along the drive from here to my timbeland in western MD I have seen a similar kind of improvement in at least 50 or 60 percent of the trees. I asked Ed White if there could possibly be some new mychorrizal fungus on the loose. He would not rule that out completely but thought it unlikely. He asked if it could be the weather, a far more likely kind of cause, but I told him we had been having some droughts and from my non-scientific observations, that more favorable weather as a cause would surprize me.

So you are seeing the reverse. Well, I am not happy to hear that. Can it be the weather? Droughts? NS is very resistant to a drought, but not to persistent dry periods. Do you have a large enough number of trees involved? Or could it just be by chance a few more prominent ones that are striking your eye?

The picture of the tree may confirm my thesis about the fertilizer, but not strongly so. It might have helped me to see the color of the needles before they dropped off. If they were green, then I would be a little more unsure. The fertilizer fiasco I had caused the needles to turn a sick brown color before falling off.

In any case, the tree is weakened by losing so many needles, which normally stay on NS for about 6 years. But it will recover. Just make sure it gets enough water during dry periods, and refreshed mulch as needed.

--Spruce

"... told him that I had been seeing marked improvement in the NS around here and in NJ. We speculated for a few minutes about the reasons"

How about pollution control, particularly reduced acid deposition with flue gas desulfurisation at power stations?

Resin

Spruce, your area is far enough away from where I'm at that I don't think we're subject to the same factors to any extent. But yeah, here there's been significant morbidity of spruce for the past two years. The University has even named the malady-spruce needle loss- or something like that.

I should say that Black Hills variant of white spruce is looking even worse in many cases. Always been my least favorite commonly planted around here, but still troubling to see so much mortality.

I don't really know what is happening, but i can't help but think that two very dry growing seasons in a row are to blame. Quite depressing and I sure hope things turn around this year.

And oddly enough, some trees appear completely unaffected and are doing fine.

+oM

It looks like you have buds that are about to sprout - so the tree ain't dead. But I concur with above statements - you don't need to fertilize, in fact you can burn the roots!
In my case I planted two regular Norway Spruces in mid October - one has lost all its needles with no buds while the other has lost 50% of its needles and the jury is still out on whether the seconds ones buds will srout (they look dead to me). My diagnosis is that the ground froze before the trees got a good watering and so they IMHO were too dry during the winter. The nursery which planted them has not yet agreed to replace the second one.......

I need to catch up with three responses here. In order:

Resin:

The pollution issue is interesting and is something I have not looked into. But I have from time to time read pieces about it and here are just a couple of thoughts.

First, as for any reduction of pollutants being responsible for some improvement in the larger mid-Atlantic region (please, no more pictures of boats being swamped by high seas!), I guess it is possible, but I have not heard of any reports of dramatic reductions of any pollutants in the last 6 or 8 years or so.. But in that vein I read something several years ago (maybe about 10 or more) that I never followed up on but which was intriguing. It was that there was in some areas so much of a reduction in sulfur dioxide emissions that some farmers who had not had to do so for many years were now having to use fertilizers that included some sulfur. Related to that, I think it may be sulfur dioxide that when it gets on pine needles can damage them and cause premature loss. Maybe you can tell me more about these things.

+oM:

There is some kind of needle cast disease that affects blue spruce in Garrett County, MD (in the mountains, 2,500 feet elevation) that caused trees to lose their lower limbs but does not weaken the fundamental metabolism of the tree unless the loss of foliage is extreme. Many of these trees sprout new limbs and retain their vigor, but donÂt look the same. This disease does not affect Norway spruce, however. Could it be the same thing? I think this disease is increased by the humid climate in the mountains, but here in Winchester VA, where it is drier and windy, I see no trace of this disease.

Chester:

I have had this happen--trees freezing. Losing their needles, and then failing to break bud in the spring. The picture of the weeping tree that started this thread made me think of this possibility. If Safis can tell us that the needles when they dropped off were still green, but dry, then I will abandon my fertilizer theory and go with the idea of their freezing before properly established. The only problem I have with this theory is that most of the trees this happens to die, even if they retain a good proportion of their needles late into spring. I had 7 trees that went through this (I wonÂt take the time to explain all the circumstances), and of those 5 died. The ones that didnÂt die didnÂt lose any needles and may by chance not have been affected the same way. I am not hopeful about your trees. And although I think this may be a possibility for the weeping spruce in question here, having seen how much needle loss it had, I would wonder why it has not died like all my trees that got frozen and had needle loss did. The fact that it has broken bud shows me it is safe.

--Spruce

Needlecast on blue spruce around here would be rhizosphera.. (bad spelling). But this thing I'm talking about is something else and definitely affects NS.

One other thing I forgot to mention is the absolutely prodigious cone production last year. Many trees put on virtually no vegetative growth, with all their resources going into this cone production. Never seen anything like it. This was true for all conifers. And in fact, most broadleaf trees were unbelievabley seedy. I think the poor growing conditions have really put a strain on an extremely wide range of plants around here.

+oM

Pictures from this morning. The buds are really doing well. I think it's going to pull out of whatever funk it was in.

{{gwi:682999}}

{{gwi:683001}}

Thanks for everyone's help.

Hi-

I hope I'm not too late to post to this thread. I'm having exactly the same problem as Safis with my Weeping Norway Spruce. Some background:

We're in the high desert area of Northern Nevada, zone 3-almost zone 2-very little precipitation year round, usually a little more snow in the cold months than rain in the warmer months, and occassionally very high winds from the southwest. I planted the tree in the late spring of 2006 on the southeast facing side of the house and it receives full sun all day. It's in the same drip irrigation zone as my rose bushes, on an every other day schedule-mandatory water conservation-which we turn off in October before the freeze and turn on again in April right after the thaw. I don't water during the cold months and the Spruce has only been fertilized twice, with Miracle Grow, in the Spring of 2006 and the Spring of 2007. It was fine after it's first winter but this time most of its needles are turning yellow-brown, despite a lot of great-looking new growth at the tips. Now a very little bit of the new growth is starting to look brownish, but it's got me worried.

I'm assuming that I'm either over watering or underwatering but I have no idea which. Can anyone tell me what's wrong? Thank you in advance.

Thank you for your response, Ken. Does the tree look frost damaged in the photos? We had a late snow last month after it already started getting warm.

Mom:

I am not familiar with your climate there, but NS is fully hardy through zone 3. If you are nearly a Z2, I don't know if this could be a problem. High desert? Maybe the perpetually low humidity could be a problem along with the winds. Sorry, I really can't speculate about the climate, but you could be pushing the boundaries of what this tree is suited to.

But I can assure you that the miracle grow, unless you really overdid it, should not be a problem. And the watering? No, I can't imagine that could be a problem. Norway spruce is tolerant of excess water, unless it is actually standing in water for long periods. I think all you can do is wait and see what happens. The only other thought I have is the soil--NS likes moderately acid soil. You don't have alkaline soil, do you?

--Spruce