iona, I nearly always seem to lose some liquid when pressure canning green beans or tomato products, and no matter how careful I am, it happens. Sometimes it's just a bit, sometimes quite a bit, once in a while not at all. I think that it depends on the juiciness of the vegetables, the humidity, the way I hold my mouth, whatever, but I alwayw seem to get a slightly different result depending on the day.

Annie

Siphoning can be a problem with both BWB and PC although it is more common with pressure canning and has more possible causes. With BWB it is almost always due to insufficient water on top of the jars or over-packed jars.

If it is a chronic problem for you with pressure canning the most likely cause isn't bringing the pressure up too fast but fluctuations in pressure during the processing. Even a miniscule adjustment in the heat can cause a 2-4 lb. change in the pressure and that is more than enough to cause siphoning.

If the heat control on your stove (gas is easier that electric) doesn't allow for very tiny adjustments then don't adjust the heat and let it process at the higher pressure (within reason of course).

But most stoves, with practice using jars filled with colored liquid, will allow for what little bit of heat adjustment is required. You can learn and mark the knob setting needed to keep the canner right at the 10.5-11 lbs. for 20 mins. Then use that setting for bringing the canner up to pressure and just leave it there. It may take a bit longer to reach pressure but once there you won't get any siphoning.

Other possible causes are (1) too quickly reducing the pressure after processing. Do not move the canner off the burner. Leave the canner on the stove burner. When it returns to zero and the lock disengages remove only the weight, wait 10 mins. and then remove the lid. Wait another 5-10 mins. before removing the jars and do not tip them when removing them.

(2) not getting all the air out of the jars first. (3) Lids not screwed on tight enough. Many women especially with small hands just don't get them tight enough. Wife and I could always tell who screwed down the lids in our batches so now she has me do hers too. So go a bit tighter than you think they need.

A cold pack (raw pack) will almost always leave you with jars short of liquid. Personally, I can see no advantages to it and several disadvantages.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Ball Blue Book says to wait 2 minutes after pressure returns to zero, then open lid and remove lid. Wait 10 minutes to remove jars. Nowhere does it say to wait 10 minutes before removing lid.

Shirley,
The 10 min. wait time is fairly new from USDA. That is correct information. It does help with siphoning.

Thank you all! I will take this advice on my next PC project, which is pepper relish and have another batch of tomatoes to do also.

Annie, you may have found my problem...not holding my mouth right!! And your Salsa is wonderful! (Not that you needed to be told that again! HAHA!)

Yeah it is a fairly new instruction Shirley but we have talked about it here for at least the past year or so. Sorry you missed that.

Dave

I compromise somewhat and wait 2 minutes before removing the weight, then I loosen the lid and wait 10 minutes before removing. By then, there is barely an inch of water in the PC and I remove the jars. HWBing is another story.

Sphoning issues have also been discussed in great detail. Suggest that you do a search here for the keyword "syphoning'. It should bring up hundreds of posts, and some very recent ones. A way to get used to PC is to fill a few jars with water and a little food coloring. Then process as if they were a PC item. If you see color liquid in the canner water, its probably coming from inside the jars. If not, your siphoning concerns are solved.

There are a lot of unanswered questions on pressure canning. Do you leave the flame on full blast while venting? Is the flame on full after you place on the weight.? Do you leave the flame on high until the weight starts to jiggle?
When I see the first puff of steam, I turn the flame to medium. After a 10 minute STEADY stream of steam, I place on the weight and turn the flame to a determined mark on my gas burner and wait for the jiggle before setting the timer. It may take a few minutes longer than if I had the gas on full blast. Doing it this way helps greatly in reducing siphoning.
Usually I have a slow steady rock of the weight and don't need to adjust the flame.

Shirley, I have a gas stove and have my burner knob marked too, so I know where the flame will keep my pressure steady.

The only time I have a problem is when I leave my patio door open trying to catch a breeze. That breeze blows just right and there goes my pressure gauge. One more issue to cause problems, because then I need to bring it back up to pressure and start timing all over again. Sigh.

Annie

Shirley, I had been turning the heat up to high in order to get the canner going and steaming and that may have very well been my problem. It meant that by the time I put the weight on, the pressure was going up quickly and I was probably lowering it too much, which resulted in severe temperature fluctuations to keep the pressure from increasing too fast.

However, that was why I had a question with this, as some things I have read (which I did with searches on here Ksrogers) said to turn the heat to the highest setting to start with. But knowing that I shouldn't let it pressurize too quickly was confusing me and hence, why I posted this thread to ask.

With the advice from all of you from this thread, today I kept the heat lower while waiting on the venting to begin. That seemed to help greatly. I canned Hot pepper-onion relish today (according to directions and PC'ed it) and had NO siphoning! So thank you all very much for the help!

ksrogers, as to searching for old threads on here, I have done that, as have others who have asked for help on here. One problem with that is that some of the threads are extremely old and from what I gather, many things have changed and are constantly changing. I am almost afraid to ask questions on here because of the constant pointing out to us "newbies" about how we can search for it and how there are tons of threads dealing with the subject. While some of you seasoned pros may get tired of the repetition of answering the same questions over and over, I do wish you would keep in mind that it also takes time to read through all the threads, and as it has been pointed out, there are pages and pages of threads to hunt through,and many times the answer is still not clear to us. I'm sorry if it offends you to have to answer us. Maybe it would be better if there was a separate forum for "New Canners". This forum has been most helpful to me in the learning process and it is the first place I come, along with comparing what I have learned here, with the Ball Canning book I have. It is as if I trust your knowledge more than I do the book, so I ask that you please bare with us and let us ask our stupid questions. Maybe we will learn and will be able to answer the next generation that stumbles upon doing this and give you a break one day!

Glad todays project worked! Were you able to find and mark your burner knob for future reference? Once you know that magic place on the knob it makes it so much easier - unless like Annie you open the patio door. I knew there had to be at least one advantage to an electric stove!! :^)

Dave

iona46, I doubt I'm compromising safety by bringing the canner slowly up to pressure. Once the jiggle starts, I never adjust the flame. I have been doing it this way before a Harvest Forum and way before computers. My first PC canning experience was back in the late 1950's. That first project was fresh salmon. My, it was good.

iona, I know people are often directed to the search function but frankly, I find it mostly useless.

For instance, even in this thread, we have "siphoning" and "syphoning". If the thread you are looking for has a misspelling and your spelling is right, or vice versa, best of luck to you.

Add the fact that you'll get a bunch of threads on something like pickles and you have to wade through the darned things just to find the right thread, then go through the thread to find the post. Sigh.

As for answering the same questions, I can tell you that I don't mind at all, I'm just happy that new canners are starting to can and if I can help at all, I'm glad.

Anyone who doesn't want to answer the question again, doesn't have to, so that's the good thing about these forums, you don't have to post to any thread if you don't care to.

Annie

I am sorry this is going to be off topic for the original poster. However by reading I have learned something and no a search probably wouldn't have helped me because I would never have thought to call that headspace thing 'siphoning'. Thanks for the good question and good responses.

I am very glad iona and annie have addressed the repeated posts referring others to use the search feature. I can honestly say I used to love this forum years ago, spending lots of time answering questions, posting a few of my own and lots of learning. In my absence, there seems to be a reigning in of the same responses from the same person that promote self approved methods. But only to be replaced by a new m.o., the hand smack regarding using the search engine. I, too, have been reluctant to post because of this. In fact, I ended up throwing out a whole batch of fermented pickles just because I was met with 'use the search feature'. We all know the search engine is lacking. Some of us don't have the time to devote to it and then still not have our questions answered. Personally, I agree with annie, if your tired of answering the same questions, don't answer them. I know I'd appreciate my questions not getting lost down the page because one person tells me to use the search feature and then a bunch of info that really doesn't pertain to my question. Truthfully, I just skip over Ken's responses and move on to the more credible posters. The purpose of this forum, as I see it, is to provide a place to get reliable info regarding canning and such. But if you are reluctant to post because you don't want to get your hand smacked then the forum is not serving its purpose.

I know that I might have offended some of you out there. I truly apologize to the original poster for the high jack. I guess I have been keeping my opinion to myself for 5+ years on this one. I'm just glad to know I am not the only one who feels this way.

Tietie and Annie,
It might be insulting to a few about making use of the search feature. It would be very difficult to deal with older posts if there were no searchfeature. To repeatedly give out the same answers to the same reduntent questions seems counter productive. Its pure laziness that makes some people hate to use the search feature. It can be a bit intimidating, but it does give many replies to a simple question. You have to start thinking like a computer when doing searches, as a single keyword might be fine for a few, but a few choice key words would narrow the searches. The searches don't just look at subject lines, but ALL the TEXT in each thread too. You can skip over all my posts, if you like. This IS a freedom of speech country and you can make all the nasty accusations you like. In my defense. I ALWAYS provide accurate information here and have many years of canning experience, and much was handed down from my Mom and her Mom, as well as my researches on line, and sources of items used in commercial canning.

Why should we even bother with all the old threads and keep so many dated more than 4 years ago then? Its much better to just repost reduntent questions even if very stupid, and to DEMAND INSTANT SUPPORT from the other posters here if they are told to do a TINY AMOUNT of RESEARCH before stirring up a hornets nest.

As of late, I have found that there are just too many new people here who want everyone to know everything, and not give FRIENDLY statetments like SUGGESTING a key word search. Maybe its time for me to move on, as I feel that this forum is just wasting too many hours of my precious time per day, when I can do many other MORE USEFUL things, that I like to do, and I DONT bother others if I dont know the answers. I simply use a WEB SEARCH for any info I need to know. Computers are here to stay, so just live with it, and deal with it..

As with many aspects of life, compromise and moderation can serve us all well. ;)

There are of course, 2 sides to the issue and both sides have responsibilities that are often not recognized.

One side being the constant loss of much valuable information as it is bumped off into the cosmos by many redundant posts which a bit of exploration of the forum or the search engine, despite its flaws, could easily answer. And if it can't NCHFP and its search engine is a wealth of information.

Our search isn't perfect by any means but no search engine is. Yet when used correctly and with the same realistic expectations that one has of Google, it can be quite helpful. And the effort to at least try it is appreciated by all. Time, limited as it is, is a prized possession for all of us - those who post and those who answer.

On the other side of the issue is those who are new to canning and home food preservation, who have no way of knowing their question is a common one or very unclear, may not even know the basic terminology, may not know what term to search for or have sufficient info to sort out what is and isn't applicable to their question. They need and deserve our help and our consideration and it is unfair to assume they have the same level of understanding that many of us have. They don't.

So my proposed compromise is that rather than just refer them to the search engine, if you know of a previous discussion that specifically addresses their question take the time to search out the relevant information for them and provide a link to it. Some of us are quite effective with the search here and using it saves us the re-typing of all that info over and over again and still provides help.

And please, if you are on the receiving end of such a response, take it in the spirit in which it was given - an honest attempt to be of help. If you find your question is still not answered you need only clarify the details needed and someone will be happy to provide them - first hand. ;)

Dave

Bravo, Dave.

Thanks to all that have helped me understand a little better what I was not understanding and feeling the need to question in order to make sure I am doing things safely. Thank you Annie for your response also. I really appreciate those of you that are willing to teach the rest of us!!!!

To those of you that think I am too lazy to do a search, please go back and read my original post. I do mention the words "from all that I have read" and "Another thing I read", so obviously I have been utilizing the internet and the "search" tool in this forum. I also explained in another post on this thread, that reading these old threads sometimes leads to confusion.

I'm not an idiot. I have a college education and even have a background in Biology and Chemistry and have worked in a lab for more years than I care to remember as a Chemist, with some years in a microbiology lab and after that, toxicology. I have also been running a successful business with my husband for 16 years now and even given this economy, have managed to keep our heads above water, and the surprise with that is that I don't even have a business background!! I must have part of a brain! I am not, however, adept at canning, but am making every attempt to get there. This forum is part of my "education" so to speak. Once again, I thank those of you that are willing to help those of us that are making every attempt to learn!

Iona - no one said you were an idiot or lazy. I'm very sorry if you choose to interpret my comments that way. My comments certainly weren't directed at you personally but at the issue under discussion - that of referring people to the search engine - in general.

Dave

Thank you Dave. I have also at been reluctant to ask questions at times. I understand that valuable informaton can be lost on older threads by making repeated post and thats a shame. I plan on spending the winter months just reading them. But just in recent post the instructions in Annies Salsa have been modified. I am still trying to figure out the search feature here and do use it before making a new post. Prehaps some tips from the pros would help us new to GW. Would it be any help to try to find an older thread that had some of the information that was being looked for and reviving it with your new question? Would it get looked at? I think your suggestion is excellant.

Would it be any help to try to find an older thread that had some of the information that was being looked for and reviving it with your new question? Would it get looked at?

Definitely! It is a great way to save some of the best old threads. Just add the new, relevant question to it and it gets bumped right back up to the top of the front page. :)

The search here is what is called a boolean type. That means a search formed by either using single terms/words such as "peppers", headspace", etc. OR by joining single terms with AND, OR and NOT for the purpose of limiting or qualifying the search.

ie: (using the topic of this thread as an example) "headspace or head space and siphoning" or "peaches and recipe" - or "peppers pickled not hot" - or "best or favorite pressure cannner".

It takes a bit of experimenting true but it can be of great help and a boolean type search really is the best format available for diverse subject matter such as we discuss here.

But most important - never be afraid to ask and please don't take any responses personally - just ignore or write it off to the limitations of this particular medium.

Give it some time and someone else will chime in. ;)

Dave

Personal attacks against me don't get ignored. I have a right to make statements in my defense. Its been just too 'fussy' here when I suggest someone look through some threads first. A good example of not bothering to check first is the cider vinegar thread posted just a few days ago. Yet, a new post just mentions the same thing. Every time a new post gets made, and older one is deleted and lost forever, unless its brought up again and has current posts in it.

I guess no one has realized that I was the SINGLE PERSON who ORIGINALLY stated that the use of jars filled water and some food coloring be run through the PC to see if they get syphoning issues that show up in the pots' boiling water and would help to develop the technique for cool down. I have seen MY MENTION of using the food coloring by others, but no one ever thanked me! Same goes for the thousands of posts about the Villaware food strainers, Pomona, and even Clear Jel. All these are subject items I INTRODUCED to this forum SEVERAL YEARS AGO. NONE were ever recognized and ALL have been disussed many times by many others.

If I drop this forum from my efforts, I seriously doubt if anyone would even care. Call it cynical, but its very true. And you can take my posts anyway you like. I am not the only one who has gotten a 'keep in friendly' email. Now, I must shut off my email address from everyone as I get too many private posts about canning and don't care to give my knowledge away anymore. Take it like you care to..

Wouldn't you know the first post I make in a year and it's at the tail end of a fuss lol

Getting back to the original question, Shirley wrote:
"Nowhere does it say to wait 10 minutes before removing lid." Well,uh,actually there a couple of places that do say that.
The fifth edition of "So Easy To Preserve" book states:
"After canner is depressurized, remove weight from vent port or open the petcock. Wait ten minutes, unfasten lid and remove carefully....."
The NCFHFP website says: After the canner is completely depressurized, remove the weight from the vent port or open the petcock. Wait 10 minutes; then unfasten the lid and remove it carefully...."
Any idea why the discrepancies?
SOS

Here is a link that might be useful: Using Pressure Canners

sos acres, If you reread my post you will see my reference to the latest Ball Blue Book of instructions. I do wait 10 before removing the lid from my pressure canner.

"But just in recent post the instructions in Annies Salsa have been modified."

Oh no!!!! I make this salsa every year. It could take me an entire day to search through all of the threads that contain "Annie's Salsa" for what changed and I still may not find it.

Would someone be so kind as to share what has been modifed in her recipe?

Thanks in advance.

afeisty 1, If you will look on the 1st page of the forum outline, there is a recent discussion of Annie's Salsa, I'm sorry that I am so computer illiterate that I can't make a link. It contains a posting with all the updated information. I cut & pasted it to my files and printed it off for my use. It is most helpful.

About all the bickering going on above, It really is distressful to see people arguing about how people should post questions. Some posters here are friendly and helpful, but comments that are more like hand slapping are going to drive newbies away. They make the posters seem as if they were rude know-it-alls. Ken has a wealth of information for many of the discussions on this forums but sometimes comes across as a real grouch(sorry Ken). Is it too much to try to keep this forum as the friendly, helpful place it should be?

It has made me afraid to ask a question. Just this morning I emailed Linda Lou to ask a specific question. If I posted a thread, it seems that I may make another "valuable" thread fall off the page, so therefore it means that there can't be any new threads for fear of losing one. I'm not sure how many "valuable" new threads may not get started because of this.

I will explain that even though there may be another thread on the topic, and I do search for previous threads before starting a new one, the answer is not always clear! There will be several answers and sometimes they contradict the other answers.

One example is the person posting the thread about the hard cider. It was quickly pointed out to him that there was another thread about it. The OP then pointed out that even though there was another thread, it was NOT addressing the question he had. This seems to be the case very often.

Anyway, hopefully Linda will not mind that I emailed her and Linda, I promise, I will not bug you and fill up your mailbox!! (Thanks for helping me!)

It has made me afraid to ask a question. Just this morning I emailed Linda Lou to ask a specific question. If I posted a thread, it seems that I may make another "valuable" thread fall off the page, so therefore it means that there can't be any new threads for fear of losing one. I'm not sure how many "valuable" new threads may not get started because of this.

Iona - as I said above, I'm sorry that despite all the reassurances posted, you choose to interpret the comments made about posting this way. Sometimes dealing with the public in any situation, requires all of us to be a little less defensive. We risk missing out on lots of valuable information. ;)

I wish you well in your canning.

Dave

iona, I get a lot of personal emails asking questions because they've gotten a curt response or are afraid they will. I don't mind, I do my best to answer every one.

Don't be afraid to ask. You'll get a variety of responses. Most times I take the responses like everything else. If I don't like them, I ignore them. Occasionally I get into a war of words because I take things personally, but I try not to.

Because I work full time and am trying to run the farm on the side, my time here is far too limited. I just try to enjoy the time I do have to spend here, so ask away. I figure that's what the forum is for, it's a social function as well as an opportunity to exchange recipes and update techniques.

Annie

To Ken Rogers,
First of all, I want to wish you a Happy Birthday in the month of August. Don't know the exact date but I learned 3 years or so ago it was in August.
Second of all, I do want to thank you so much for all the time you have spent with this forum. I have personally thanked you on more than one occasion for information that you have supplied. In my recipe files, I have files named for you such as "Ken Rogers Advise on Jam Making" or Ken Rogers advise on Calcium Chloride" or "Ken Rogers Advise on Acid Blend" that I refer to whenever I have a question. I have also forwarded these pages of notes to others interested in canning. Please do not think that your advise is not used or shared.
With respect to using a search, I do not know what to say. I have seen two comments in the past few weeks on other blogs that made no sense to me. The first gal wanted to know about where you purchased dried beans (all you people who use them)as she had no idea they were purchased (at least the common ones) in a grocery store. The second woman was confused about a recipe that called for "orange zest" as one of the ingredients. She had never heard of it, didn't know where to buy it, and could not proceed until someone told her. Yes of course, a simple search on the worst search engine would have told her.
Surprising, but when I tell people face to face who have questions to use a "search engine", many say "Oh yes, that would be a good idea" like somehow they forgot about that. Don't know if that is what is going on here, and on ALL the other forums, but I suspect so. You think they are lazy and I wonder if some people who are not so computer savvy just don't think to use a search engine.
Oh, and yes, I have a Ken Rogers file on Clear Jel.
As I also have said before, it is amazing how many things I have saved from this forum (I always save the link in the file) that I go back on to see if there is any new information, only to find that familiar note: "web page cannot be found" - it has been deleted.
Just remember that there are many of us who drop in on this forum on a regular basis and DO NOT ask stupid questions. When I asked you how many caraway seeds to put in a jar of sauerkraut, and you answered, I asked that question because I could not get a "real" internet answer (one specific enough) and I trusted your answer as an expert. I could not find on this forum that that specific question had been asked and answered before. Your answer is also in a file labeled "Ken Rogers Advise on Sauerkraut".
It is the old problem that those who follow the rules are not noticed because there is no reason to notice us.
Anyway, have a great birthday!
Jim in So. Calif.