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cottagecindy

advice on insulating crawlspace

14 years ago

ok, I have decided it has got to be done. My floor feel like a skating rink. I've read links, old threads, googled the info.... so I'm puzzled.

one of the threads I read said do NOT put insulation batting between floor joists, I'll get mold. ?? Some of you may have read my other threads on my floor furnace I am not using.

So the crawl space and cellar, is all dirt floor.(someone put a piece of vinyl in the small area that you walk down to it's about 8'x8' --which is where the furnace sits snug up against the subfloor with an exhaust pipe heading out to the side of the house foundation wall.

so I can stand in this area maybe 7' tall. I store stuff there on some plastic shelves. it always smells musty down there. the rest of the house I'd have to crawl around sideways, on my back...and the dirt/rocks are not level. nails big rusty ones stick down from the above boards.the only air that gets into this space (approx 30'x30') is from the air leaks around the cellar entrance door and the 2 air vents-one on the north side, the other on the south side. the plumbing is under there. the walls.(plaster,lath board walls.--which I think are colder than the floor--some pipes and wires go up into them.

so what stuff should I go buy at HD-rolls of the insulation (I saw the link on the rolls with the liner on the outside facing and you just put wire clips to hold it in place. but that stuff is at a local nice lumber/door/window store. don't know the cost. It is a small cottage.

So, should i do this? crawl (watching out for nails and rocks --are there spiders down there? another thread said black widows breed in this environment.???

is it easy to install? If I hired someone it'll cost big money yes? I bet my landlord would do it but lord knows how much he'd charge. --he's tight with his money, does give me a break, but it is just a rental, and I''m not on a priority list unless something is broken .It is a low end rental but I'm making it better.

so is it doable, by me or even a pro. how do you get to the outer corners? barely 2' of crawlspace.I also read to cover the 2 vents down there --but I;d have to do it from the outside--the vents are where it's about 2' high in the crawl space.

any advice would really be needed. I may have to do it a bit at a time -money factor) and of course the rooms that need it the most have small crawl space, How close can i go to the floor furnace with the insulation between the floor joists. oh and the air vents are below the floor joists so technically i can put the rolls of insulation right above the vent??

thanks for all your help guys, I should have married one of you! LOL! my husband will not lift a finger on anything that has to do with this cottage. He lives in the garage ,separate building,totally insulated, warm....he has the washing machine, I have the toilet!

Comments (11)

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    here is a study done recently by an unbiased not selling
    products educational site.

    http://www.lsuagcenter.com/NR/rdonlyres/D33F711D-DC4B-4E4C-9ED6-A97DCE9DB026/79806/pub3187insulatingraisedfloorsHIGHRES.pdf

    I'd talk to the land lord about investing in closed cell foam insulation.

    its not a diy..and batt insulations just don't perform where air filers thru it. one example is the drain under the tub...big big home there...others
    include plumbing pentrations,
    electrical, ductwork cuts for supplies in floor..
    and whatever whack work you come upon while under the floor.

    we have tried many methods over the years...see the link.
    to do the air sealing needed for conventional insulation to perform, the install of the insulation and the detail work ...its just not economically smart.

    have a conversation with the landlord and get him involved.

    best of luck.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Thanks for the advice. I will read up on this report and definitely send an email to my landlord about this. :)

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I read the study that you gave me, lots of interesting info. but..... have a few questions.
    I live in the San Francisco bay area, the southern end (Mt.View). It never gets hot enough (well maybe 10 days on and off AT MOST out of the year) to ever use or have a/c. --when I say hot, it hits the 90+ degree marker !!! we love it -- woohoo it's in the 90's today-HEAT WAVE! and that's with little or no humidity . When it rains in the winter, not much this year,and obviously a little humidity (but nothing like anywhere else in the US and the temps stay in the 50-60's, and drop to the 40's --sometimes upper 30's at night. so right now today, I have my windows open, and at night they get shut, and the electric heater goes on. Which is why this area is the million dollar location to live (and why I don't own or could even afford to buy a house)
    The wall-vented crawl space is cool, and musty smell. the nails from the subfloor are rusty (home built in 1930's) and to be honest, entire house has termites. Homes in CA all have termites -that's the way it is. The houses here get tented when up for sale.
    This little cottage is on its last leg. It will be torn down in the future for a mega million monster to be built on this land. but for now I was hoping for any idea to make it more livable --it's fine in the spring,summer,fall -we use a ceiling fan in LR and BedRoom. It's just now in the 3 months of winter that the cold air makes the rooms and floor very very cold. (this winter is an odd very cold one)-should not be getting down into the 30's at night this often!!
    so.... should I just suck it up and deal with it? Save my money for this outrageous electric bill 3 months of the year. or will some type of floor insulation pay off over the years I live here to make a difference in the pg&e bill and living more comfy in the house. (it's not even warm enough at night for my tempurpedic bed to conform to my body lol!)

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    tough call...

    "should I just suck it up and deal with it?"
    maybe
    Save my money for this outrageous electric bill 3 months of the year. or will some type of floor insulation pay off over the years I live here to make a difference in the pg&e bill and living more comfy in the house.

    the payoff will be several years depending on the size
    of the house & R-value of the install.

    you can do your own diy experiment..
    buy a roll of R-19 or R-30 batts
    install the batt insulation then on the
    face of the 2x's install foam sheathing
    boards. I'd start in the area you can stand in to
    do this. tape all the seams of the foam board
    and caulk the edges of the foam boards.
    this will insulate the floor and stop air movement,
    and keep the room above floors warmer.
    this is not an install you could do in the low to
    the ground portion of your house, but they do
    sell foam kits online. tiger foam for example
    says their two part kit will foam 600 sq ft..if I
    remember correctly.
    you would need to suit up or work in long sleeves,
    long pants (and put rubber bands at the cuffs of the pants to keep creepy things out) and cover your hair and face...foam is a mess to spray.
    you could set off a few bug
    bombs in those areas prior to working there..
    oh and get some knee pads.

    another option is to put carpet on the floors
    which acts as an interior insulator...not great but it helps to keep
    your feet/legs warmer and isn't a break the bank
    thing.

    what type of electric heaters are you using?
    an oil filled radiator type heats much better
    than the toaster type coils as it heats the
    oil which provides better heat than the elec
    strip heaters.

    wish it was 90 degrees here.
    today is 55 but its rainy and lots of
    humidity..makes my bones ache.

    you say you have a furnace...what type
    elec or gas...working or not?

    best of luck

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    My electric heater (just 1) is a Delonghi Solaris -the oil filled type and it has a timer.on high-it's 1300w.

    My furnace in this place is a "Cozy Floor Furnace" in the smack center of the house (bad location, you have to walk around it to go between living and kitchen, plus it's on a bad wall side (the only long wall for furniture)
    It works, but I chose not to use it, it blows dust/cat hair everywhere, I have 4 cats and they are young and play at night,so if a toy landed on the floor grate, the entire house would burn down. (I already burnt my foot standing on it--did this when I tested it last April when I moved in.) so no floor furnace here, I'd rather freeze!

    Regarding the diy experiment, the funny thing is the only space I can stand is under the kitchen, and I could care less about it! The living room and bedroom (the front part of the house is really only where I need it. :( and of course can't fit there. How much money would I be wasting on a roll of that pink stuff?and then there's a foam board? so 2 layers?
    You mentioned blowing in foam, but that stuff cures right? and how does that stay intact on the dirt under the house?

    What about the attic? There is a really light layer of blown in insulation, but a buddy of mine said it was pathetic. If that was insulated better would it help? My landlord has to get new wire for the outside vents at the front and back of the attic.I wonder if I had the extra rolls of batts when he goes up there in the spring, if he would put the rolls down, unless it's way time consuming. (He's a great guy, just he'd rather be making money with his construction company, then fixing up his old rental.) Can't blame him.

    oh and I have nice new thick carpet and pad in these 2 front rooms.
    He put in new windows when I moved in (dual pane) but I swear more cold air comes thru the walls! (lath/plaster) and this little cottage stays nice and cool during the warm part of the year-sometimes not even having to use a ceiling fan.

    so yes..... all my dilemmas .....so where do I put my money towards if I even do that,..... a vacation???!! :)

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    While recently researching radiant heated floors (for a new home we're hoping to build) I saw a product that is basically a large heated mat for use under an area rug. (It's a similar idea to a heated mattress pad for your bed.) Even though you already have carpeting you could just throw one of these mats on top of the carpet and an area rug on top. Hubby and I did electric radiant heat under our tiled bathroom floor and it feels so good! Our cat spends hours sleeping on that floor. We leave our floor turned on all the time - it's cheap heat for a small room. You could just turn it on your mat as you need since I'm guessing your electric rates are probably higher than in our area (Puget Sound).

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    for your crawlspace..do you think you could do this?

    http://www.sprayfoamdirect.com/video/video_crawlspaces.php

    what concerns me is the limited height of your crawlspace
    and the tanks being 18" high..
    and know that you'll need a mask, and light to work under there.

    your questions:
    How much money would I be wasting on a roll of that pink stuff?

    depends on what R-value you get..R-19 being the minimum
    and R-30 being the max. costs vary but you can shop online for prices. look for R-value and the sq ft the bag covers.

    and then there's a foam board? so 2 layers?

    the batts & then foam board insulate and air seal. two steps...but given your 2" to work in...it would be a tough install.

    You mentioned blowing in foam, but that stuff cures right?

    yes. closed cell when it dries is a rigid product.

    and how does that stay intact on the dirt under the house?

    video will show you it goes on undersides of floor not on dirt of crawlspace.

    What about the attic?
    improving the insulation in the attic will keep house warmer/cooler, that is true, there is alot of heat loss in winter and heat gain in summer.
    but before you insulate you need to close any holes from attic to living space below..then insulate.
    otherwise you are just filtering air thru the insulation.

    are you a diy person? I do a LOT of diy and quite a bit of
    hands on work in my job...but I like it. sure makes you sore the next day...but that's why I get paid well..LOL!
    except when I diy at home.

    how big is this cottage? any idea of the sq ft?

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    ok, a lot happened today--

    my landlord (also a contractor remodels/builds homes) came by --always shows up when I least expect it, cuz he squeezes me in on his light days.

    anyway, first of all- the house is approx 650 sq' -- about 25x25' give or take
    he has listened to all my whining about the moisture and my bed, so he installed a nice big quiet exhaust fan in the bathroom!! VERY quiet and works AWESOME I gotta say. He also finished off the garage doors/mancave where my husband lives (literally) the doors had to be rebuilt and rat proof. did a good job I must say. --the garage is at least 20' from the back of the cottage.

    I asked him about the insulation:
    attic-- since a certain amount has already been blown in, he said 1 or 2 bricks of the stuff at most (his apprentice says he will help me blow the stuff in if I rent the blower and buy the bricks of the stuff and of course pay him, but he's cheap. just flakes out sometimes and doesn't show.) one of us blowing, one patting it down as he put it (i guess making sure the beams are exposed)

    the outside ice walls--he told me his apprentice can drill holes outside at top of under eave between each stud, and put foam in there, then plug back up the holes.They've done this many times on very old homes with plaster lath/board homes.The redwood siding is easy to patch back in the holes. He did it for a back door light.

    the crawlspace--he told me it would cost LOTS of money to have someone do that, but it can be done a DYI. He says R19 batts with metal clips under the subfloor between floor joists or whatever those boards are called (I forget) but it'll take daysssss. He has gotten under the entire house to all 4 corners, it is just a LOT of twisting,contorting your body and not being claustrophobic --which I have no issue with since I love cave spelunking!! I did one last year in the gold country and the roof of some of the cavern was literally right above my face,pitch dark, like being in a coffin i guess!so peaceful. but anyway, i could do it if i'm brave and take my time-it sounds like a month lol, but i'd had to be dressed the right way,have the tools,make sure i know my paths!! and maybe my "loving" husband would hang nearby in case i get stuck or something. well at least in cell phone range.

    so all this stuff sounds promising...I will be here a long time. My family does (who live around the corner) I have to say he's done a lot of work for a rental, and I've put in my fair share of my own money already.but it's my home and want to retire here (yes I'm only 51 but I'll work till I'm 65+ just give me good health!)

    so what do you think now? tackle which project first? oh and he's letting pick out the new color of this house that'll be painted in the spring!! pale grey blue!!cottagey blue! with white trim around the 2 front windows and the white front door that I am going to pay to replace it.

    so one project at a time, I'm not a Rockefeller in the least. heck i owe taxes ug.
    anybody live close by and want to help? I'll pay money and feed you, I can't pay normal contractor rates :( that's why I have to do these projects on my own. and husband wants nothing to do with the house. (he's fixing up his garage and apt man cave.

    so...what items to I need to do-keep in mind I can't do any of this alone I think too dangerous.--watch me get stuck under the house lol!
    attic-- equipments and protection and approx cost?
    crawlspace-- equipement and protection and approx cost
    outside walls--equipment and protection and approx cost?

    well a lot was accomplished today. I should take photos but have no clue how to put them on here.ok, so i now need opinions. THANKS guys!

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    1. Unless you intend to buy this cottage some day, it is not your home it is the landlord's. That would keep me from doing this unless he's giving you a reduction in the rent.

    You can also do the outer walls with blown-in cellulose. Similar to the attic, you cut a hole in the wall, put in the hose and then let it fill the cavity. You can do it from either the outside or inside. Cheaper than foam. Disadvantage is that it can settle over time.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Weedmeister,
    Thanks I really do appreciate your input. and yes, thank God he gives me a huge discount since I'm fixing up the place (300 bucks off the rent and he pays water,garbage,gardener. ) I'm telling the gardner what to plant where etc. I like the fact he trusts me (the old dad owns the place--contractors dad.Fred the landlord overseas the place.) I hate spending my own money on somebody else's place I definitely agree! He's helped me with windows, and remodeled the bath the way I wanted him to. I did put in my own carpet, but well worth it. The backyard is all dirt and broken/cracked concrete, but he said he'd build a deck over it all next summer if I helped.-labor.and I have no issue with that. Right now I just want to be comfy, and not freeze in the winter.
    I will never own a home and am so lucky to be renting in one of the expensive towns on the peninsula. Next door is a 1.2 million home. The other side is a group of 8 condos that sold for 700k each. really fancy. My family is right around the corner and need me more than ever (their health) and also, Fred is the only one I have ever rented from that is cool with my 4 cats, i don't have to lie and hide them. I just want to feel like I have a home. I know it sounds crazy when I change things, add things, help him with things....and the father adores me. If I eventually get booted out of here if they sell, I get to take the nice stuff that went into the house. and then I will most likely be moving into a mobile home. I can't afford anything else.and with my 4 cats......my life is complicated I'm sure you have figured that out, and right now aside from fixing up this place to be warmer. I do not like living inside with multiple layers on and my feet freezing. and yes, Fred will not do that for me. so it's a dilemma. I may wait till spring to do anything so i can put all my finances on a spreadsheet and see the future goal. I want to support myself and live on my own. and stay here in this cottage as long as they'll let me.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    ok cindy...
    so...do you think you or the landlord's helper could
    do the closed cell faom install in the joist bays
    of the floor??

    I think the foam in the walls is a bit of overkill
    personally. have thermal scanned walls that have
    had insulation added by drilling and pumping
    and there are lots of voids. if the walls
    have fire blocking then you have to insulate above
    and below the fire block. (fireblock is a 2x installed
    between wall studs..just fyi)
    if you do decide to add insulation in the walls
    cellulose would the cheaper option.

    adding insulation to the attic is a good thing.
    but by blocks of insulation..that means cellulose.
    while its ok in walls..if there are holes in attic floor
    then the dust from the cellulose will find its way inside.
    folks complain of dust...but it is actually fine particles of newspaper treated with borate.
    so take time to seal around that new bath fan and any
    other holes into your living area. make sure bath fan has
    a correctly installed back draft damper and is vented out
    of the attic. (into soffit or gable end)
    it is ok for the insulation to cover the ceiling joists.
    most ceiling joists are 2x6..(actually 1.5x5.5)so just
    bringing insulation to the top of the joists is R-19
    minimum insulation. here in my area (La.) we do R-30
    to R-38. personally I like batts so that it is easy
    to move and work when needed. but that is my personal
    prefrence. batts are easy to install whereas blown is
    a mess.

    batts in the floor...if that is the route you choose
    then these are the things you need to do..
    if floor joists are 2x6 that means that you have 5.5"
    to fill. if the insulation is not in contact with the floor then condensation forms between insulation and floor
    and floors rot (takes time for 'soft' spot to rot thru)
    gravity works against these installs.
    R-19 would be the minimum to use. unfaced, meaning no
    paper backing.

    check with local hd or lowes to get costs of materials.
    or online for foam kits.
    personally I'd insulate the attic first..then the floors
    and prolly skip the walls.
    but if your feet are cold, you may want to start with the floors. I'd still do foam there.

    I do a lot of crawlspace and attic work. making sure you have light is the most important thing imo. plastic makes it easier to slide around under the house, as do knee pads
    protect your knees. always have someone nearby when working. always.

    best of luck.

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