Since the majority of houses built, at least in the US, are wood frame, using this as a reason not to buy a FL is silly... do FL's have vibration issues??? when they are not installed properly they CAN have vibration issues, but when properly balanced, they will not. do Fl's have mld issues??? not if you leave the door ajar for a while after using the machine to give the drum time to dry out (if you read the manual wth the TL machines they also say to leave the lid OPEN after use! so this is not solely at FL issue, they just are sealed tighter and therefore tend to build up mold quicker if not properly attended to...

If you want to know you have hot water, get a machine with a built in heater that holds the water at the temp you want...

go talk with a knowledgable sales person, tyically at a small local appliance store that carries a variety of machines and explain what you want feature wise, and then pick models...

Hi Sue. You had posted on my thread about leaking Calypso. I have decided to get a new washer but have ruled out FLs due to space and mold considerations. I have also ruled out Cabrio and other computer controlled non-agitator type TLs due to getting burnt on repair issues with my Calypso, expense, and unreliability of computer components.

I had been planning to get Whirlpool 5300, but I now plan to get Kenmore 700 (#29722). In addition to being able to pick temperature and load size, I can also select soil level. What do you think about this machine?

The soil level selector modifies the wash time and possibly the water temp. A lower soil level gets less wash time (and lower temperature) per the same cycle setting than a higher soil level. This is done by a small circuit board. There's also a circuit board involved in the ATC temperature control. It's very difficult to completely avoid electronics. Even a machine that has rotary dial controls may have one or more boards for secondary functions.

laballet - I haven't considered the Kenmore. I am not impressed with Sears service in general and other service people don't seem to want to work on Kenmore. Plus with my Kenmore Calyso fiasco, I am trying to look in another direction. I was determined to buy an unefficient machine this time HaHa. Seriously, I am beginning to get confused. One repair person tells me to buy any agitator model, another said their company has had alot of repairs on the Cabrio agitator this year (mostly still under warrenty). He advised a LG or Samsung front loader. I just want to make a decision soon. I did break down and go to the laudromat the other day. I used all front loaders for everything. The commicial modeels are nice because they are fast and no rubber seal to worry about. It was nice to not worry about heavy vs. light clothes. I understand the concept of the FL, but truly why would it clean your clothes better?

Sue15c, it's not possible on the market nowadays to rigidly consider brand name or previous brand experience when making a purchase decision. Everything is mixed up now. One also cannot assume that all machines of a particular brand name are designed around the same mechanism. Kenmore products have *always* been sourced from other manufacturers. The majority of Kenmore laundry for many years (1950s through the present) has been sourced from Whirlpool. Many people are put-off with Maytag because of trouble with the early Neptune frontloaders and the "Atlantis" toploaders that were a Norge design. Maytag toploaders now are Whirlpool, either of the direct-drive transmission design they've been building for the past 25 years, or the Bravos which is the Oasis/Cabrio design which is itself based on F&P. Maytag had a Neptune that was sourced from Samsung. Kenmore had frontloaders sourced from WCI/Westinghouse, and now Electrolux as well as Whirlpool. GE's Harmony toploader is LG. Etc.

Sue15c,
I have not been impressed with the Sears repair/service people here either. My main criteria are cleaning ability and gentleness. However, we don't want to pay for another expensive machine that is a new technology that isn't tried and tested. Cannot have a FL because you have to keep the door open or you will have mold issues (and I don't have space to keep door open). I was planning on Whirlpool, but the Kenmore 700 is the only basic TL--non-HE that will let me select both soil level and water level. I HOPE that it's gentle. My regular repair person does service Kenmore as long as it's not too complicated (Calypso was) and he said not to get a machine that selects the water level itself. He has had customers wash a small amount and have the tub have full of water.

sue15c, I sure know your frustration! I'm a fence-rider on the FL/TL wars and IN THEORY, the FL should be gentler on clothes and do a better job cleaning most things. There's exceptions to every rule. There's been a number of posts about FLs damaging clothes and not being able to get clothes clean. I believe a lot of problems with both FL and TL is pilot error.

The Cabrio/Oasis/Bravos (COB) seem to have the error code issue under control. There was also an agitator/washplate design issue and that's been redesigned too. The latest machines seem to get some good reviews but they are mixed. Several here have opted to go for the agitator series.

For MY needs, I really don't think I'd need a heater, though it'd be nice occasionally. And for me the cost difference just wouldn't be justified. I'm looking long and hard at, in no particular order, the F&P, Amana FL, Affinity, Speed Queen and a couple of the Whirlpool TL including the cheaper HE model. But I should also add that I'm hard-pressed to rationalize $1000-$3000 for a washing machine!

A lot of things enter into cleaning ability including for example, the water hardness, temperature, soil type and level, type of fabrics, whether things are mixed or similar, detergents, additives, etc.

The commercial models are different than the consumer models so be careful there. I would suggest you not completely count out FL consideration. There's a lot of good machines out there. On the low end there's an Amana and FriGEmore unit and an Amana unit (owned by Whirlpool and made by Samsung) that are both very interesting to me. The Affinitys are a bit more and there's some LGs, Samsungs, and well, there's a lot of good units out there. You should consider the capacity you need and your laundry habits.

A heater is a controversial item. Fisher & Paykel say they don't need it because of the way they they're designed and though that's suspicious, frankly with the rave reviews about F&P, they're definitely doing something right and is really worth considering. The GE Harmony is another HE toploader that has a heater available as do the Oasis and Bravos machines. A heater, especially used at highest temps will add significantly to your wash time so be aware of this. However you really might not need to use the heater all that often. Again, it depends on your needs.

There's also the Speed Queen line with both top and front load machines, solid but not very "techy" if you're into that. Personally I'm not. I believe form follows function.

Cabrio has the agitator series too.

As said, you can't just go by brand anymore. Way too inbred these days...

We went from TL Maytags, the good ones from about 1989, to used Mieles.

The FL Miele is far better, I am thrilled with ours. Cleaner clothes and our clothes stay like new. Also wonderful for sweaters and delicate items. I much prefer hot water for sanitizing over bleach and my whites are white without bleach.

The wash loads do take a long time, but there is a short cycle if desired. The dryer will leave some things damp, but I can live with that as my clothes do not take a beating from the heat. I can also run it through again or use the 20 minute setting. I do miss a hot blanket. If you catch it before the cool down cycle the blanket will be warm.

We ended up with two sets of Miele's, both second hand. The first set we bought is the small size. We have a king size bed and I thought the larger size would be better. Well, we kept both sets. The small set is in the house, which gets used the most, and the larger set is in the garage. I am so spoiled, it is such a luxury.

Detergent info: I use Persil (from Miele) in the FL and I used Tide in the former TL.

It's all so maddening!

I came here today to make a similar post. When we moved 8 years ago from an apartment with the washer & dryer supplied, to our new home, I wanted to get the latest & greatest, at the time, The Calypso. I couldn't believe I was paying that much, but Hey, if I could get a high quality energy efficent pair of machines, it would be worth it, right? Pffft. Long story short, fed up, we kicked them, well IT, (we sold the dryer which was ok but no better really than a dryer half its price) to the curb about 2 years later. Convinced it was bad technology I set out to by an even better FRONT LOADER HE machine. We dropped a load of cash on the Bosch Nexxt machines. Now, comparatively speaking, the Bosch was much much better to us than the Calypso but disappointing nonetheless for the price we paid. The machine was quiet I loved that about them, I also liked the internal heater. That said, I still had the stinky towel syndrome, the muck build up in the rubber seal, and had to quit using fabric softner since it seemed to sometimes dump it right on the clothes causing discolorations and it took forever to wash a load, especially the Sani-Wash. I'm not saying it was a bad machine overall, but I thought for the money it would do a superior job & I wouldn't have to fiddle with it all the time! My Previous top Loaders were fast, my towels didn't stink and all I did was add detergent, pick my options and bam, done. They were also VERY noisy, had less options, no internal heater and seemed to have much smaller capacity and the dryers seemed to get too hot or something, my clothes always seemed to be more wrinkled in them.

Fast forward to today, we just sold our home and the buyers asked for the machines in the sale. We agreed and now need to buy a set for our new place. Our interim rental home has another set of cheapies in it and I am thrilled at how fast I can do a load of clothes! but they are SOOOO loud and cheap feeling, my clothes are more wrinkled and the hot water setting isnt that hot, not to mention we can't take a shower while washing towels!

We went to the appliance stores yesterday and I get all ga-ga over the fancy-schmancy machines again, the Electrolux especially, but cringe when I think of spending THAT much yet again on a pair of machines. I mosey over to the "regular" machines and they seem so hu-hum, small and cheap by comparison.

Isn't there something in-between?? What I want is something reliable, that is very quiet, solidly built, large capacity, internal heater is nice, that is energy efficent. It doesnt have to use as little water as some of these HE machines do, but it would be nice if it used less than the old style top loaders.

If anyone is more familar, can you list some suggestions? I ended up walking in circles and finally left because I was just confused. I get online to reseach but Everytime I read good reviews on a brand/model I find just as many bad ones.

Frigidaire FTF2140F, $655 at Sears, great feedback (4.5 stars). I have a three year old in a rental home, me seester has one, a friend uses two at a State rehab center, very durable no monkey business machine.

Well here I am again - yesterday made a tour of our local appliance store, Best Buy and Loew's. Still thinking about the whirlpool cabrio 6200 w/agitator, but also considering a FL whirlpool duet 9200 or the FL Samsung 218. These FL's are on the lower end price wise, $100 more than the Cabrio TL. The Cabrio's drawbacks are the no heater and the agitator (am i going to be detangling straps from the agitator?). The FL supposedly clean better due to more clothes friction, but the smell issue i am struggling with. Also I think I would regret not buying the pedistel (another $200). Loew's does have a 30 day return policy, which I like. Their 5 yr warrenty I would think about purchasing, even though I've never bought one before. Anyone have any thoughts? How about Loew's service etc.? Salesman is super helpful and very honest. Thanks, Sue

I also posted regarding your question on the Samsung 338 thread. I have the Samsung 218. I think you will be pleased with its performance. Very quiet spinning machine and I have it on a pedestal. It doesn't have a quick wash cycle or prewash. But you could get around that by using the rinse/spin with extra rinse for a quick wash for a few garments. And just a rinse/low speed spin, with detergent, for a prewash.

The dryer seems to be more powerful than my old dryer. Before with the old dryer you could just keep the same setting for drying. This one needs the specialized settings so you don't end up with wrinkles in your permanent press from too hot drying.

I replaced my old FL Neptune with the Samsung. I never had a mold issue. I don't use liquid detergent but I do use diluted fabric softener. I also wash loads in hot water with bleach. Didn't leave the door open because it had a tub light, but the machine went continuously. I am leaving the door open on the new machine because I don't use it everyday. But I am really not planning on buying any washer type cleaning products. Since it was never an issue in the old machine, I really don't expect any problems with the new machine.

If it is a concern, just purchase one of the products (affresh, whirlout, etc.) and clean your machine once a month.

Housefairy - Back to Loew's last night with hubby. He thinks we should buy a TL because it will look nicer in laundry room with existing dryer. We built the laundry room in 2002 and bought the Calyso's then. FL with pedestal will be alot taller and I don't think I would like it w/out one, being 5'6" tall. So I'm thinking about it. He also thinks I should not be leary of the COB's without the agitator, even after our bad experience with the Calyso (early plate technology). Anyone have any thoughts out there? Thanks

Sue, you have comments/questions in several threads, I'm trying to keep it all in mind when answering each one.

The Oasis/Cabrio/Bravos wash plate mechanism is completely different from the Calypso. They cannot be compared to the Calypso on the point of mechanics/reliability. O/C/B is based on F&P. In fact, they use the same drive motor and basket clutch design as all F&P machines.

I am in the same boat - replacing a Calypso. I want to make sure that if I get a FL it is a least a lateral move size-wise too. I have all the manuals still but none state the capacity. I even have the CR rankings print out from 2002 (listing Calypson at the top of course) and it doesn't mention size, Repairman said 20lbs and via google I think I saw 3.7 and 3.4. If I get a 4.0 Kenmore or Samsung will that be at least as big?
Otherwise the Bravos may be the best option...

The Whirlpool Calypso entries on epinions.com show "Volume Capacity" 3.5 cu ft.

Well, finally decided on a washing machine to replace my Calyso. Saturday I had delivered a wtw6200vw TL (has an agitator). I bought it from Loew's and they have a 30 day return policy. Also bought the extended warrenty for $84. I decided on this one for several reasons. I wanted to control the amount of water to throughly rinse items. The capacity is quite large and I liked the high spin speed. Not sure how well the machine is cleaning though. I've checked tempatures and the hot is 100, warm is 70-80 and cold is 50 (freezing). I know that consumer reports rated washing ability as average.... but after buying their top rated machine last time, I hesitate to believe them. I watched their video online about how they test cleaning ability. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? I've heard 2 reasons why FL clean better. One is the spin speed takes out more dirty water. Two is incresed friction between clothing increases cleaning ability. Any truth to these?

I observed a WTW6300 agitator Cabrio run a few loads yesterday. Two were set at Auto water level. Based on just two loads, I can't say if it's typical operational characteristic, but the water level was fine. Actually, one of the two Auto loads had too much water, IMO. The Warm water temp corresponded with what Sue15C states above, 81F (checked in the tub with a meter) which is low on my personal scale of what's warm ... although "modern" detergents should work OK since that's higher than 65°F.

Sue15C, does your 6200 not have ATC? Seems like the cold water temp at 50°F shouldn't be that low, unless you're using a TAP cold setting instead of ATC cold.

dadoes - Not sure what ATC is - but this one has care control temperature mgt., which is suppose to regulate incoming hot and cold water. I knew this feature was on there and while I wasn't too crazy about managing the hot water, I thought it would be a benifit for the cold cycle(only one cold available). I asked about the 6300 because I had read about the delay feature, but I was told it wasn't available anymore. I checked the web site and could not find it either. Maybe there are two cold settings on the 6300? There were two on my Calyso.

ATC is automatic temp control -- an alternate term for the "care control temperature management" to which you refer. The 6300 is an older model. Choices for hot/cold, warm/warm, warm cold, and cold/cold, which I assume are all controlled. The Cabrio target for warm seems to be 85°F, with an allowed variance of +/- 5°F per the 6300 tech sheet I found, or +/- 10°F on the 6200 tech sheet. The target for cold is not stated. Most ATC systems target 65°F for cold. Detergent manufacturers typically advise that their products don't work well at temps below 65°F.

Note also that different cycles may have warmer or cooler targets for the same temp setting. Warm on the Heavy cycle may be a slightly higher target than warm on Delicate, for example.

You were brave to try a Cabrio after your Calypso experience!My husband didn't want to go with an expensive machine again.

One of the problems they have is the name so similar. Cabrio and Calypso are totally different machines and cannot be compared fairly other than a new/newer technology than the conventional at the time.

sue15c, You're seeing why I laugh at Consumer Reports. They're hardly even good for soaking up oil leaks. People talk about the quality of appliances degrading over the years but I'm far more appalled at the degrading of CR.

Spent an hour on the phone yesterday with Whirlpool. Finally got someone to tell me the temps are suppose to be - 120 for hot, 95 for warm and 75 for cold, although nothing in writing.....she stated if she sent out service and they found everything was ok, I would need to pay for the call. Another person in Customer service told me to contact Loew's and have them check installation first then they could call service. They spend more time away from the phone checking on answers....it makes me wonder what they really know. I think my salesman from Loew"s was right, they are reading from a scrip. The booklet clearly states that detergents work better above 60 degrees and the CCM was for hot and cold water. I also asked why a warm rinse was available on the machine but the electronic control passes over it every time. Maybe I haven't checked out every cycle. Does anyone know if the agitator works differently in the Cabrio vs. other TL. I don't hear alot of swishing around on the high speed cycles. The Whirlpool person told me that the machines were made to be quieter.....hmmmm.
Laballet - Did not consider Kenmore because then I have to go thru Sears service 800 number and long wait times again. Did you purchase that machine? I wanted temp., load size(water control) and soil (time) also plus large capacity and i do like dispensers for detergent etc.
Dadoes - How does the F&P and COB non agitator machines work compared to the Calyso? Is this why they are popular or is it because they are TL and not as expensive as FL?
Cynic - My neighbor has a F&P (not sure which model) she bought last Fall. She thought she was getting an option for a full load of water but found out that was not true.

Still wondering about my original question on how FL supposedly clean better.

Sue,

The service tech sheet for your model WTW6200VM indicates the target temperature for warm is 85°F +/-5°F ... that is, it's controlled to be between 80°F and 90°F. Cold target is not stated. However, if the machine is some distance from the water heater, the resultant temp could be lower due to hot water not flowing until the supply line is purge of standing cold water.

Cabrio agitator action is like F&P, a longer, slower stroke than Whirlpool direct-drive transmission-agitator models.

I suppose you never watched your Calypso run, since the action stops when the lid is opened unless the lid switch is bypassed and most people wouldn't know how to do that. The Calypso wash plate does not rotate (except when the entire basket spins), it wobbles. The machine never fills with water to submerge the clothes, the water level is always beneath the wash plate. The pump recirculates the wash water, showering it over the clothes while the wash plate wobbles, bouncing the clothes up-and-down and at the same time rotating the load in a counterclockwise direction through the water shower and rolling them over similarly to an agitator machine.

Calypso has a u-joint so the wash plate can wobble and a leveler mechanism to tilt the plate at 35° for wobbling or level it for spin balance. There's no transmission as such, but there is a spin brake.

The Cabrio wash impeller oscillates back and forth like an agitator. Although the clothes are not fully submerged like in an agitator toploader, the machine does fill with water enough water to be seen inside the basket, and depending on the load size the water level may be up to the impeller.

Cabrio has a very simple drive mechanism (same as F&P). There is no transmission, gears, brake, clutch pads, etc. The wash plate oscillation and basket spin is driven by a single motor shaft. The wash plate (or agitator) is bolted to the motor shaft. The basket sits on a drive cog just below. The basket has an air dome integrated into the bottom that causes it to float upwards when the machine fills. This disengages the basket from the drive cog so the impeller (or agitator) can rotate separately. When the water drains, the basket "un"floats and settles back down on the drive cog so it can spin.

Here's are some YouTube videos showing Calypso and Cabrio action, a direct-drive transmission-agitator Kenmore, and Fisher & Paykel agitator machines.

Calypso

Cabrio HE

Whirlpool direct-drive transmission-agitator (straight-vane agitator)

Kenmore direct-drive transmission-agitator (dual-action agitator)

Fisher & Paykel agitator full load normal cycle

Fisher & Paykel agitator medium load heavy cycle

We have the GE Harmony which is comparable to the Calypso but without all of the problems. I know you said you wanted a regular agitator style but the Harmony really is great. When my father-in-law finally ditched his Calypso he got a Harmony and he's very happy with it also. Depending on how much room you need in your washer, it might be worth looking into.

sue15c, I'll tell you my ideas about why FL's clean better than agitator TL's, and why some FL's disappoint some owners. They're based on long-time use of agitator TL's, followed by six months and counting with an FL. Sorry for the long post, but since you asked three times, I figure you really want to know :-) No opinion on HE TL's, having never used one.

1) Washing action: In an FL, the entire load is tumbling around, so everything is continually rubbing (but lubricated by water), flexing, and falling against the drum. In a fully-loaded agitator TL, only part of the load is exposed to vigorous washing action at a given time.

2) Length of wash cycle: Some FL's, like mine, have pretty long wash cycles on at least some cycle selections, with an option to make them even longer. A half-hour wash cycle gives plenty of exposure to the washing action, and to detergent and other products. A full hour wash cycle is even more exposure, and is great to have available for dirty stuff.

Agitator TL's have shorter wash cycles, maximum of 15 or so minutes in my experience. Some FL manufacturers also use short wash cycles, to satisfy users who want quick turnaround of their wash loads. Obviously (to me anyway), a shorter wash cycle means weaker cleaning performance. Also, it takes a few minutes for a large load to be entirely wetted. So if a wash cycle time of, say, 8 minutes includes the time to soak the load, then I imagine there's even less time for actual cleaning.

3) Wash temperature: The advantage here can go to FL or to agitator TL, depending on your plumbing and the features of the particular FL.

If your hot water runs cold for a while, before turning hot, an agitator TL may still fill with mostly hot water, because the initial cold water is only part of the fill. But the much smaller fill of an FL may consist entirely of the cold water, even if you wanted warm or hot. So if that's your plumbing setup, and you replace an agitator TL with an FL with no heater, or a heater that's not programmed to boost the temperature on all cycles, then your washes may end up being cooler than you're used to. That'll affect cleaning performance. Maybe this hit is balanced out by better wash action on the FL, in some cases? I don't know.

In contrast, an FL with a fully functioning heater, which boosts and maintains the temperature on all cycles, with a wide selection of wash temperatures, can have a definite advantage over an agitator TL, since water temperature is an important factor in cleaning performance. Unfortunately many FL's fall short of this ideal. But most if not all FL's with a heater have at least a super-hot "sanitary" cycle, with exceptional cleaning for fabrics that can stand the temperature.

Also re temperature: Even with an ideal plumbing setup, most any new washer, FL or TL, will do warm and perhaps hot washes at a lower temperature than the older machine you're replacing. Among FL's, Miele is the only exception I know of. Among agitator TL's, the Speed Queen seems to be non-temperature-controlled, but I hear it uses more cold than hot in its warm mix. So its warm could also be cooler than you're used to, unless your hot supply is very hot.

ebear1271, your Harmony is much more akin to the Cabrio than to the Calypso.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Calypso uses a washer plate instead of a traditional agitator? I was pointing out that they both have a great deal more room that a washer with an agitator.

Thanks, suburbanmd...I'm trying to decide between FL and TL, that was helpful.

Well, here I am again. Thanks for all the great advice and answering my questions. As I stated above I purchased the Whirlpool 6200 w/ the agitator on March 27. The machine works well, but still not pleased with the water tempatures. Through the Loew's/Whirlpool helpline, they have sent out 3 repairmen from 2 different companies. They have replaced all the parts,including the "thermister", which controls the tempatures. All the testing repeated the same temps I am getting - 100,80 and 50 degrees. My water heater is almost on high, hot water coming in at 117 and cold at 50 or below. The repair guy yesterday felt that my cold water was colder then most (we have city water) and that may be dragging down my other tempatures. So much for "care control management", which is suppose to regulate the tempature. Any thoughts on this? My choices are to keep the machine or start looking again unless I can resolve this issue. Am I hoping for too much? I know alot of machines have the santi cycle but they are all No agitator or FL. The features I like on this machine are large capacity, controling the water level, high speed spin, soak and hand wash cycles, dispeners. I like to be able to load the machine and leave it. I do not want to return to adjust water temps or add liquids later on. A short cycle is also nice.

Dadoes - thanks for the You Tube vidoes on how different machines work - can't believe I was watching them:) Lol

I finally pulled my Calypso out for the last time. Good riddance! We replaced it with a Bosch Nexxt 300. Just installed it today. Chose this model because of the water heater usage in all the cycles. I have a whole house tankless water heater, which is great, but you do need to run the water a bit longer for it to get hot. At least with the Bosch I know I get the appropriate temp.