Infinity 25HNB5

Thanks again for your help. You are suggesting that a similar seer outside unit from the performance series will be more sturdy and quiet but does nothing to boost efficiency?
Also, does the installed ERV help with noise and efficiency?
I talked to the builder and he will contact the contractor to see if we can change the air handler to a VS UNIT. . He thinks that they will charge to remove the existing one and charge again to reinstall the variable speed one. He thinks it will add up a hefty amount!

Be careful about suggestions and their interpretations.

I would not be throwing darts with different outside condensers without knowing they were an AHRI match along with the performance and efficiency numbers.

Yes a very big deal that you should be paying attention to.

IMO

First of all, I would like to know if dealer provided the "L" model air handler. You should visually check the air handler to confirm or not. Would be shocked if he did.

There are 20 matching AHRI combinations using this air handler. If intent on keeping this air handler, this is the best option based on performance/efficiency numbers for outside condenser upgrade.

7185949 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING INFINITY 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNB548A**31 FX4DN(B,F)049L 1600 47500 12.50 15.00 47000 8.70 28000 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 383 1114 Yes

This is a classic example though of a dealer not discussing homeowner's options and giving him what he wants them to have. In other words looking out for himself over his customer.

IMO

Thanks tigerdunes.
I will try to check the unit installed in the attic later today. I will take some pics of duct work and unit as well. When you say "L" model handler, what do you mean?
Also what does the ERV exactly do?
My 2 biggest concerns with the builder installed/plan to continue installing are noise and comfort (I am willing to sacrifice some efficiency here!).
I talked (actually texted) the builder regarding the system and his response was that he is trying to keep us "within Budget". I guess classic builder response!

The L stands for aluminum coil in the air handler which is a good feature for longevity and resistance to leaks. Designation should be on air handler data plate.

ERV,suggest you use google. There are many good articles.

IMO

Been googling and I find that some variable speed air handlers are as low as $1,250! (http://libertywholesalesupply.com/air-handlers/rheem-rhplhm4824jc-4-ton-air-handler-multi-position-direct-drive-variable-speed-ecm-blower-with-txv.html)

I know it is not a carrier, if that even matters, so what on earth is my builder mean by saving me money!!!! $400-$500 the most on an air handler!
This is getting to me now and the installed air handler in my house must go!

Just got back from the house and took picture of the air handler and other installations.

The Unit is: FX4DNF049L. So it has an L in the name.

pictures of installations:

another pic

another

another

>I would not be throwing darts with different outside condensers without knowing they were an AHRI match along with the performance and efficiency numbers.

The 25HCC5 and 25HNB5 do match to the FX4, and are similar to the quoted 25HBC5 efficiency-wise. Of course it would be the responsibility of the contractor to consult the AHRI directory for the specific model needed before installing the equipment.

hvtec42 and/or tigerdunes and any other:

Cooling is more important than heating in my area so
How accurate is this statement?

"ECM motors are variable speed for cooling but are often fixed for heating"
Thanks.

>Cooling is more important than heating in my area so
How accurate is this statement?

No matter what mode you're in, the blower will ramp to meet a specific CFM setpoint. That CFM setpoint can be different for different modes, usually you will be trying to move more air in the cooling mode but not always. So it really is a variable speed blower all the time. Maybe what he meant is in the cooling mode, you can send a dehumidify signal which will slow down the blower.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 11:28

How accurate is this statement?

"ECM motors are variable speed for cooling but are often fixed for heating"

The only way the blower would be fixed in heating mode is if you had a single stage furnace. I am not aware of any manufacturer who offers a single stage furnace with an expensive variable speed motor. It makes no sense. Given this logic this statement is inaccurate.

Variable speed motors are variable speed no matter what. If you only have one stage of heat or cool (without dehumidify hooked up) they may be constant CFM, but not constant speed. Big difference. This is why VS blowers are a bad idea on restrictive ductwork, they will ramp up and up trying to meet the CFM setpoint, which will make the system very noisy and isn't good for the longevity of the motor either.

Builder set up a meeting with the HVAC contractor this coming Monday to answer my questions and discuss possible changes/upgrades. HVAC contractor also installs equipment from Trane, Amana, RUDD, Goodman, and comfort maker in addition to carrier. So my options, i believe, just opened up if I can choose equipment by another make. Any suggestions on that?
My priority is to have a VS air handler and a possibly a 2 stage heat pump. I am open to using a brand other than carrier if the carrier system is too expensive.

Any suggestions/comments or ideas you guys want to throw at me will be highly appreciated.
I am also not sure how the contractor/builder will deal with the equipment that is already installed in the attic ( air handler and the ERV units ). Thanks guys.

Meeting with the HVAC contractor tomorrow. The FX4 will go so any suggestions on a middle of the road system from Trane, Amana, Rheem, Goodman? Thanks all for your help.

I prefer Amana over Goodman, it is just a nicer unit all around (though made in the same factory). Rheem I would look at the rectangular ones, not the cubes. All the Trane heat pumps are pretty nice, but as with all brands you do get higher efficiency and lower sound levels as you step up the line. The advantage Trane/Rheem have over Amana/Goodman is demand defrost. Variable speed air handler would be a nice thing to have. I'm not familiar enough with your climate to comment on whether going for a high SEER/HSPF unit will pay off. What kind of a heating season do you have?

Thanks hvtech42. We are in west Texas so hot for 8 months of the year (95-100). Not much humidity and mild and short winter.

I prefer a HP system that has electronic demand defrost(EDD) as well as dehumidify on demand in AC cooling which would be a nice feature for your location, Trane//AmStd would be brands to look at.

For Trane TAM7 air handler with single stage XR15 or XR16, two stage condenser XR17 or XL18i.

Carrier does not offer EDD, just the cheap Time/Temp feature. Still great equipment in the Performance and Infinity models.

IMO

Thanks Hvtech42 and tigerdunes.
Any big advantage in comfort and noise the 2 stage has over the one stage condenser?
I'll update after the meeting.

>Any big advantage in comfort and noise the 2 stage has over the one stage condenser?

In terms of noise, 2 stage doesn't in itself make the condenser quieter, but 2 stage units are usually higher end, which are quieter than lower end units. They shouldn't really be quieter than a high end single stage though.

In terms of comfort, yes, 2 stage units are superior. That is especially true in humid climates though, so where you are you might not notice as much of a difference.

A 2-stage will be quieter inside the house when it is operating in the low stage. You will barely hear it and you won't get a cold blast of air down your neck when it first turns on.

Thanks. The knowledge you guys have is truly amazing. The meeting with the contractor unfortunately is pushed till tomorrow afternoon.

Builder and i met with the contractor for about 45 minutes. Let me begin by saying that my impression of him is that he is full of it. He and the builder seem to be buddies so I have no idea who is looking out for my interest. Asked him about installing other brand name systems but he insisted that since he is Carrier authorized dealer that we will get the best deal! I also asked about the load calculations and he said that he did that and he will get those to us! He also mentioned something that soounded weired about going to a 2.5 ton unit if we upgrade to a 2 stage condenser!!!

Bottom line that he is willing to "upgrade" the system to any carrier unit that we want! He defended the FX4 air handler and admitted that the FV4 is better and the greenspped system with its handler is the best (mentioned that it is about $20,000 with a smirky smile on his face)!

He will get back to me with few options of FV4 and single stage and 2 satge condensers within the carrier family. I'll update you with the options and the extra money that is required! I do not have a good feeling about this as I got the impression that he will take advantage of us since he already completed most of the work, received over $ 10,000 and knows that I am not happy with the FX4. Thanks all for your help.

This post was edited by kdom20 on Tue, Oct 21, 14 at 20:10

"Asked him about installing other brand name systems but he insisted that since he is Carrier authorized dealer that we will get the best deal!"

I could be wrong, but I don't think Carrier authorized dealers get a lower price. The local distributor sets the price. Contractors pay different prices plus their labor charges will be different.

"HVAC contractor also installs equipment from Trane, Amana, RUDD, Goodman, and comfort maker..."

Go to the Carrier web site and see if this contractor is listed as an authorized dealer. I thought authorized dealers only worked with one brand. To me this sounds like an jack of all trades and master of none type installer. Even if he were allowed to work this way, then in my opinion he is not trained to select and install the best Carrier equipment for your needs.

The builder almost always uses an HVAC installer buddy. You are right they are looking out for their best interests. It is rare that they get the kind of questions your are proposing. Keep at it and hopefully you will get the right equipment and with a good installation.

Just checked the website and the contractor is listed as one of few other contractors in the area. So he is not the only one that is authorized to install Carrier. I think the contractor was misleading us!
And yes he was surprised at how much I knew about models/brands thanks to all the great advise/info I received from this forum.

My goal is to at least get a VS handler. I hope we can change it with the least level of headache/expenses. I will entertain other options If he comes back with a Better overall system for a reasonable price increase. Of course, I will post here before taking any action. Thanks.

Hi Guys, after more than a week of wait, the contractor/builder just came back to us with this in an email:

"here is specs on heat load for 70* on 102* degree day. Sensible 34,876ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ Latent- 8829,ÃÂ ÃÂ cfm- 1615ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ 4ton heat pump. So the 4ton sizing is fine. Here are first options wanted
ÃÂ
Exchange new air handler with variable speedÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ #FV4cnf005.ÃÂ This would be removing other air handler from attic, un solder copper lines, un hook drain lines, un hook all duct work. We then would set new variable speed air handler and rehook all products back.ÃÂ With laborÃÂ $1800.00.
To upgrade the outside heat pump unit to 15 seer infinity $1600.00.
To add Pure Air Filter system to the back of air handler $899.00"

First, as you can see the load calc is not complete and he used 70 and 102 as opposed to 72 and 97 and I am not sure if that makes a difference in the size if the unit. He also does not mention what the Infiniti unit is and no mention if what thermostat will be used!
Also, as I expected, we are being charged a shipload of money to uninstall the FX4 and reinstall the FV4.

Without the air filter, that would be $3,400 extra to upgrade to a variable speed air handler and an Infiniti heat pump.

Should we do it? Thanks.

What model infinity heat pump?

What model thermostat?

I don't like the idea of an Infinity HP paired with the performance var speed air handler.

Here are a few ideas assuming 4 ton is correct size.

Better

6936859 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING PERFORMANCE 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB648A**31 FV4CN(B,F)005L 1400 1120 47000 12.50 16.00 46500 9.00 29200 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 364 1103 Yes

With Carrier Edge Thermostat with humidity control

Much better
6938389 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING INFINITY SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNB648A**31 FE4AN(B,F)005L+UI 1300 1040 46000 12.50 16.00 46500 9.00 29400 1 HRCU-A-CB 357 1103 Yes

With Infinity controller

You will need a 15 KW heat strip staged in 5 KW increments for either of above systems.

IMO

"...the load calc is not complete and he used 70 and 102 as opposed to 72 and 97 and I am not sure if that makes a difference in the size of the unit. "

The usual practice is to use 75 degrees for the indoor cooling temperature. You would be use a lower number if you want the house to colder when the outside temperature is at the design maximum.

My suspicion is that this contractor rarely does load calculations and he has rigged the numbers in order to justify the installation of a 4 ton heat pump. It is unfortunate but this is typical of the HVAC contractors hired by builders.

Most likely if the proper design temperatures are used, and sizes and insulation values were input correctly, the calculation would show a 3.5 ton size would be adequate. However if you are getting a 2-stage heat pump then you still have to buy a 4 ton size since they only come in even ton sizes.

Thanks tigerdunes and Mike and good catch tigerdunes about pairing an Infiniti with the FV4!

I will definitely pass these two models/options to the contractor and see how the numbers will change.
I really appreciate all your help.

There is no problem with pairing the Infinity HP with the Performance FV4, the only significant advantages to the FE4 come when you are doing zoning. Since you're not doing zoning, the only benefits are:

-The system will communicate diagnostics info to the thermostat

-Less wires needed between thermostat, indoor and outdoor unit

Probably not worth it to most people for the price premium. I will say the diagnostics info is pretty cool and useful from a technician's perspective, and it can display static pressure at the thermostat and rat out the installers if they put it on a crappy duct system. It's certainly worth getting a quote on the upgrade, but based on what you've posted already they will probably try to gouge you for it.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Thu, Oct 30, 14 at 13:20

Thanks hvtech42.
I will get quotes on the two systems suggested by tigerdunes but will not consider the infiniti with the FE4 if it comes at a high premium.

I will just add that I think it's a waste of bucks pairing an Infinity HP with a performance var speed air handler.

That's why I suggested the Performance 16 HP with the performance var speed air handler. Then add the Carrier Edge Thermidistat. Not a bad system at all and should save you some bux over the all Infinity system. And certainly a great system compared to what dealer originally proposed.

Let us know how the numbers sort out.

TD

I will for sure. Thanks.

Agreed with tigerdunes about the Performance HP. Arguably you actually get more bang for your buck with the top of the line Performance (since it's 2 stage) than the bottom of the line Infinity.

Just received the below email from the contractor via the builder as a response to quoting the 2 options suggested by tigerdunes (the infniti and the performance". It seems to me, unless I read the email wrong, that the contractor does not know how to work with the 2 stage equipment!.

"Here is other option I can do. This will be our normal parts we usually install for 16 seer. IâÂÂm not going to order stuff they have to bring in. they donâÂÂt usually stock. That just causes problems as far everyone knowing about the equipment, how it works, ect, ect.

To install fe4anf005t variable speed air handler same price I sent other day with labor to exchange at this point. $1800.00

To install 25hnb648a003 2stage 16 seer heat pump condenser $1800.00 from what was bid in for the budget

WIFI infinity controller to upgrade $350.00

Pure air filter system to back of air handler $899.00

Once again this is what I usually put in as a matching 16 seer system"

What you guys think? Thanks.

I think nothing of the builder or the dealer.

He should give you a price on the Performance system I recommended.

IMO

I completely agree with you. I have no faith in both. I am too far in the process to do anything about the builder. I will, though, have the contractor keep the FX4 and install the comfort condenser. I will after few months "upgrade" both units with some one else here in town. I will feel much better having someone else do this than this contractor. After all, he is charging close to $4,000 for these upgrades. I am sure I can find a more competent contractor that will do the upgrade for maybe slightly a bit more money. Thanks tigerdunes.

Good luck. Sorry for all your trouble. It shouldn't be this way with HVAC and new construction. It is a situation that builders and dealers get a bad rap on and deservedly so.

IMO

Thanks tigerdunes. I am sure I'll be back here for more questions when it's time to upgrade. Appreciate all the advice from all of you guys.

I have to say that the price seems pretty high for a basic Carrier System.

Here is a link that might be useful: Velocity Air Conditioning

I was looking at your post and can say he would be ripping you off to remove the FX4 air handler for an $1800 charge. At most it would be a 2 hour job to uninstall and install the new FV4 AH. You dont have to remove all the duct from the unit, you just disconnect the supply and return plenums from the air handler. You slide in the new air handler and then reconnect the plenums to the new air handler.

Did your contract with the Builder specify specific equipment? Always specify your equipment you want. I always put in a variable air handler in my systems i am installing for my family and friends. It is not only for dehumidification, but comfort as well.

wow I think I gotta move to Texas. Quite a price tag!

Here is a link that might be useful: Heating Repair Chicago

Apology for reviving the thread. We are about to wrap up things in the house and I am wondering if you guys have a recommendation for a quality thermostat before contractor/builder install another builder grade piece of equipment. Thermostat does not have to be a carrier and I am willing to spend more to have one with some programming/control capabilities. Thanks all.

I would get either Honeywell or Ecobee. I would opt for a higher end model that's compatible with more sophisticated systems so that if you upgrade in the future, the thermostat will be able to handle it.

No need to apologize for reviving a thread that you started yourself! It's only annoying if the person reviving it had nothing to do with the original topic and is asking a completely different question.

Thanks hvtech42. I will check both of these.

I wonder if you have considered a complaint to the BBB ior registered a complaint with the appropriate state agency, Here in Washington State it is the department of labor and industries.