Frankly, the prep sink is the one luxury that's most easily deleted without future regret in the kitchen design process. (Second to perhaps the pot filler behind the range.)

Running water in baking and prepping is an element that's easily planned for when you're preparing your work, isn't it? I've found it's much more difficult to make up for a lack of counter space, which your posted layout indicates.

This post was edited by peony4 on Sun, Jan 12, 14 at 3:28

A prep sink in the right spot can be crucial to a kitchen's function. However, your layout as shown doesn't benefit from one. It doesn't benefit from the oven and cooktop being split the way you have it either. If anything, from the way you describe your workflow, the two should be reversed, and the cooktop should be cut back to a 30". Overall, the layout could use help. Do you have a measured drawing of how the kitchen fits into the house as a whole? There's a better functioning space to be had here.

I'm no expert, but a single sink would be better in your space IMO.

Did you consider moving the sink to the east window? 2 can use the sink more easily if it's not close to the corner. DW can be on the DR side, maybe shallow cab/bar next. Also, a folding counter may be useful at the end of the south counter when backyard door is not used.

Anything in a kitchen can be considered a luxury. I find our second sink one of the most useful items in our kitchen. It's located next to our baking area which makes baking a lot easier. I use our large sink for most of my needs while cooking. The small sink gets used by anybody helping me in the kitchen. The dw is located there which makes clean up easier. One person can be washing the items that don't go into the dw at the large sink while someone else is clearing the table and loading the dw.

But I knew, before our remodel, that a second sink was something that would really improve my time in the kitchen. I daydreamed about it as I stood around waiting for someone else to finish up at the sink before I could dump water from a pot or to wash veggies or to rinse a cooking utensil before reusing it. Many times I wouldn't ask for help in the kitchen because I didn't want anybody else blocking my access to the sink. Our old kitchen was horrible but the thing that drove us to finally remodel was my desire for a 2nd sink.

If you haven't felt a strong desire for a 2nd sink in the past, perhaps you won't miss one in the future. Maybe the counter space is more important. If I didn't put in a second sink, a second faucet at the only sink would have come close to serving the same purpose.

I've never had one and never missed one, but...I've never had a kitchen large enough for one, rarely had anyone cooking with me in the kitchen, and especially have never had guest chefs!
Since you regularly do have company in the kitchen and guest chefs, I think it might be useful....but really, I can't see where you would logically put it with your current design.

Hollysprings,
Thanks for your response. A couple questions:

"It doesn't benefit from the oven and cooktop being split the way you have it either."

What problem are you seeing with this layup? Why would you reverse it?

I am open and actually hopeful you could shed some more light on changing out the layout?

What would you do different?

What about moving the sink to where the oven is, and the oven to where the DW is and keeping the DW on the left side of the sink (like sena01 mentioned)?

The measurements of the kitchen are 11.5 X 11 ... its a historic home ...no external walls can be moved. We are carving out 10 inches behind the brick post (left of countertop in the design and knocking out the wall towards the dining room and making a peninsula. I have attached a link to photos of the current kitchen (scroll through the photos ...there are more)

Appreciate everyones help!

-assad

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen + Home

Oh and we can't swap out to a 30 inch range top.
We already have a Capital Culinarian 36 inch range top sitting in the garage!

And a 36 inch is more valuable than a 30 inch ...not necessarily for the added burners ...but more so for the real-estate afforded to move and leave hot pots/pans around and leave then on the range top as opposed to on the countertop.

I believe this is what hollysprings is suggesting:

This swap provides a more even divide of counter space between baking and cooking tasks (your current plan has limited dinner prep space). Venting the cook top on an exterior wall should be easier and cheaper than venting a cook top on an interior wall, too. A plus for safety is that you won't need to walk across an aisle to drain a pot of hot water.

I wouldn't give up counter space for a prep sink in your compact kitchen. But what about adding a second faucet to your single sink?

[Modern Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by Santa Cruz Kitchen & Bath Remodelers Elite Construction Services Inc.

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Norwich Architects & Designers Smith & Vansant Architects PC

lisa_a,
I am starting to see your and hollysprings point of view. But I am still struggling a little in the value of breaking up the prep space. Cause in the original drawing ... I have a clean mini prep to the left of the range top and a bunch of dinner prep space on the peninsula which is about 4 feet away.
I agree with the hood cost ... cheaper to do it the new way you recommended. I am starting to warm up to the swap idea ... just would like more details of the advantages.

As for the two faucets in the same sink ... I like that idea ...but given that one side of the sink is only accessing (in both our designs its on the L .... so I am not sure how accessible it would be for prepping as well as cleaning. Thoughts?

Thanks a ton. Much apprecaited

I would not consider 18" to be prep space. That's parking space for the things you prepped across the way, which means you will be constantly going back and forth across an aisle. Even if it were a pivot, you could easily wind up with stuff dropped or dripped across the floor. And the peninsula is not your best prep area -- it's opposite the kitchen from both the fridge and the sink, which is more dropping or dripping -- and more traffic conflict potential. What hollysprings suggested and lisa posted for you is a more workable plan. Not sure if it's the best you can do, but it's definitely better in my mind and it also allows guests and cooks converse across the peninsula.

It looks like you have a dead space behind the fridge. I'd want to see if there wasn't away to make use of some of that space. I hate to waste space, especially in a kitchen.

To answer your title question -- a prep sink can be incredibly important. My kitchen layout would not work at all without one, but I don't think yours would benefit from one and you'd regret losing counter space.

This post was edited by lascatx on Mon, Jan 13, 14 at 0:00

I have never had a really large kit but in my last house we put in a 1 3/4 sink. The 3/4 was always clean for prep and this kit is smaller so I did one large single. I miss having a clean place during prep time and wish I did another 1 3/4. The only thing I couldn't fit flat in my old one was a cookie sheet but I wash a lot more veggies and fruits than I bake cookies.

Lascatx,

Fair enough. I was planning on prepping in the baking zone (when my wife was not baking) which is right opposite and 4feet from the the range top . I was going to use the peninsula for dinner prep (staging the food on the plates etc) ⦠not actually cooking prep.

I am very open to reversing out the oven with the range top. But I am pretty certain I am going to land up using the west side countertop (70 inches) than the 30 inches on the east wall left of the new range top position. â¦. wouldnâÂÂt you think so? If thats the case â¦it leaves me with the same problem, prepping across from the cooking spot.

With this new layout of reversing the range top with the oven the sink will start (at a 90 degree angle) just 15 inches to the right of the range top. â¦not sure I like that idea as I currently hate having the cooktop so close to the cleaning station
http://www.flickr.com/photos/reevesm24/5466828038/in/set-72157625980816285/

You asked about the fridge and dead space, its partial dead space. Let me explain.

I am traveling right now, so here is the best photo I can provide:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/reevesm24/5466231281/in/set-72157625980816285/

The fridge is going to be moved to just right of the basement door â¦as in the fridges face is going to be flush with the wall. The back of the fridge/dead space is accesses by the stairs leading the the basement â¦. we are going to add shelves for a spilt over pantry section as there is not much pantry storage in the kitchen itself.

Thanks and looking forward to your thoughts

-assad

If that photo you linked above with the weird split corner sink immediately next to the stovetop is you current set up, it is not even close to the set up hollysprings is suggesting.

There is NO space in the picture you linked. There would be almost 2 feet between cooktop and counter corner in holly's suggestion - not to mentioned the space to the left of the sink. And you'd have prep space there, as well as a second prep space on the left side of the cooktop. As well as space on the peninsula to set up plating. Plus a third small space over DW right next to sink for someone who is making salads or something and needs the water source.

Why would you plan to prep 4 feet across the kitchen (in your plan's baking zone), when you could prep directly next to the cooktop in the suggested plan?

I would prefer to have cooktop and sink in the same counter, but I think, in your kitchen having them so close would be more dangerous than carrying a pot of hot water across an aisle..However, if you can move the east window more to the left or right, then you can have more than 15" b/w the corner and the range.

If you can't move the window and if it won't interfere with your cooking and baking I'd consider having oven under the cooktop at the 70" wall.

I don't know if it's some kind of decoration in this picture, but there may be ways to use the space around an oven under a bigger cooktop.

Next image.

Here is a link that might be useful: Current kitchen, photo 2

The link below is part of the very helpful thread, "New To Kitchens? Posting Pics? Read Me!", put together by buehl.

Here is a link that might be useful: Posting Pictures

"Goodness, you've been living with a butterfly corner sink? It must be such a pain to wash large pans in it."

Yes, for 3 years straight ...and we hate it quite a bit! In-fact we have nightmares about being stuck with it for life :)! It just sucks - for washing dishes, for prepping and for cooking. Hence my concern for having a sink so close to the cooktop!

"Are you allowing the required space between cab runs in that corner so that you'll be able to open drawers and doors? "

Yes, the 33 inch cab is actually a 30 inch cab (We are squeezing a Franke Orca into it) ...so we accounted for actually 3 inches of space.

"Have you considered an 18" wide DW instead of the usual 24" wide size? "

Can you recommend any? I would like to stick with 24 inches, but am open to suggestions.

"Sena raises a good point: can you move the east window closer to the DR? There will be an additional cost but it would allow you to shift the cook top in its new suggested location farther away from the sink."

It's a historic home from 1894 ... can't touch the windows.

so for now have decided that you all are right and that I would move the range top to the east wall.
I am just not happy with the proximity of the range to the sink (at the 90 degree angle) and just don't know what to do about it. Any ideas around that?

Thanks a ton!
-assad

p.s> Thanks for the comments on the house and the link to posting photos.

We have sink and stove on adjacent legs, as you propose. The sink isn't so close to the corner, but originally there was just a lazy susan cabinet between the two - 12" on each side. I think the 24" you have between the range and sink wall (in lisa's sketch) would be fine - and feel huge compared to what you have. A smaller DW would make it even better! That's pretty close to what I have now, and it's comfortable.

You could swap the sink and the DW to get more uninterrupted counter between cooktop and sink. Your sink won't be centered as is, so swapping it to not be under the window isn't a huge deal. There are people here who will tell you prepping over a DW is a no-no. I don't think it's ideal, but to give me greater counter space I had to arrange mine that way and it's really not a big deal. When you have limited space you need to make concessions.

Also, I really think you will be much more pleased with that space than you realize. You could try to 'map' it out with some long pieces of cardboard placed over your current counters and draw the items on it then 'cook' a meal. Or, here's a pic of my peninsula. I just measured it to your specs...
Now, I do have a lazy susan in the corner, so my sink IS over 11" from where yours would be. But basically, if you look at the lowers, your cooktop would start on the left stile of my trash pullout. So look at that space between stile and corner - I easily fit into it. I will say you won't be able to have someone in that space AND someone at the sink - except for maybe a quick wash of hands - but it is decent space.

I have a perhaps crazy idea but hey, sometimes good ideas start with crazy ideas. ;-)

The germ of this idea came about when I wondered, "what about stealing a bit of room from the DR?" Looking at your photos, your DR seems quite large so I thought it might be possible to steal about 18" from that room. I played with the idea, fleshed it out and here's what came of my wacky idea:

I eliminated the breakfast bar in favor of a more generous opening to your small kitchen. I extended the counter into the DR and wrapped cabs around the corner into the DR for a china hutch, giving you much needed dish storage. Have it designed to compliment your home's architecture and it might look like it's always been there. I designed the hutch at 18" deep (18" base, 12" uppers to counter), just deep enough for an 18" wide DW next to it, facing the west wall. (Look at Bosch DWs, they are highly praised here). To the right of the DW is the sink. This set-up puts dish storage and the clean-up area conveniently close to the table.

You'll notice that the sink is not in front of the window and that's perfectly okay. Sinks do not need to go under windows; it's a default position that can hinder the best kitchen lay-out.

Moving the sink and DW freed up the south wall so I shifted the cook top towards that wall, gaining you more prep room all around the cook top *and* room for a pull-out pantry cab. Or you could put a prep sink in that corner instead. If you grow your own veggies, it would be convenient to have a sink near the back door to wash up whatever you harvest for dinner that night.

I estimated that with an 18" extension into the DR, you'd have approx 164" from the south wall to the end of that cab run but you should definitely check my math.

Here are hutches for inspiration:

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by San Diego Interior Designers & Decorators Tina Kuhlmann

[Traditional Dining Room[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-dining-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_722~s_2107) by Novato Kitchen & Bath Designers Julie Williams Design
(I was inspired by that tall, gorgeous mirror you currently have in your DR.)

Now Lisa, that's thinking out of the box and I think that's a great idea. You can also get a cutting board that fits over your sink (both clean up and small prep sink) when you need more counter space for serving.

I would absolutely stick with the first layout you posted. Here's why: I find uninterrupted prep space that is next to a water source to be the most important thing in a kitchen. For you, the top counter is that space, and a very nice one too - especially considering the amount of cooking/baking/multiple chefs in this kitchen.

I am actually quite surprised by the posts advocating that you put the cooktop on that top counter and chopping up that space. The only change I would suggest to the layout is swapping the cooktop and oven for a range, but since you have already purchased the cooktop, just keep it as is. I wouldn't even swap the sink and DW.

KathyNY76,

"You could swap the sink and the DW to get more uninterrupted counter between cooktop and sink.âÂÂ

CanâÂÂt, cause that will mean I have only 2 inches to the right of the sink â¦then the counter ends â¦.no good for splashes etc.

"Also, I really think you will be much more pleased with that space than you realize.âÂÂ
I did a mockup â¦see attached.

Space 1 is the counter above the 24.5 inch cabinet that will be there. There is 3 additional inches to where the peninsula will start.

Space 2 is a 6 inch pull out for oils etc for cooking.

So total space to the left of the proposed range top on the east wall is 33.5 inches.

I move the 36 in range a bit to the left in the new design.

Space 4 is the right counter space and that yields 19 inches currently

Space 5 is the sink and Space 6 is the dishwasher (we are extending the counters 4 inches to the right to accommodate a 24 inch dishwasher).

I put a marker the third of the way down in space 5. I can cover the sink with a custom prep board to give me another 14 inches of counter top if I am prepping. Will have two faucets A left spray one and a right standard faucet â¦which allows for both wet prep and cleaning up in a 33 inch sink without simultaneously without issues.

This is much more workable than I had thought. But I still donâÂÂt like it very much.My biggest concern is If one of us is cooking alone â¦she canâÂÂt just spread out and breathe. If she does ⦠its going to be in the opposite baking side with almost 6 feet of interrupted space ⦠which will be opposite from the range top AND the sink. And if there is major cleanup going on ⦠the right of the range top will still not allow for breathing room. Still mulling over it.

oh, and the second photo

lisa_a,
Wow ...what an imagination. Sadly it won't work for a few reasons.

1) There is no place for the hutch. The photo attached shows why: We are knocking out everything to the right of that blue tape on the mirror to make the breakfast bar/peninsula.

2) The pantry would cover up the beautiful trim on both the window and the door. With the DW there ..we only cut into below 36 inches (height of cabinet+counter)

Keep the wild ideas coming though ... I am loving it and am highly appreciative!

-assad

I don't think 19" is a good prep space even with the corner. One can of course live in such a kitchen, but I'd prefer your original layout.

I guess having the range top on the left of the east window is not a possibility,

Oops, didn't realize that much of your DR wall was going away. Yep, a hutch on that wall won't work.

I had an idea but then I looked at your plan and couldn't see how to make it work. Maybe another crazy idea (I'm full of 'em, just ask my hubby, ha) will surface later.

But until then, I think your choices are between your original plan and the one hollysprings proposed and I drew up.

The former gives you a great expanse of uninterrupted counter but little counter space around the cook top and a walk across an aisle to dump pots of hot water. If the path to the back door and the basement is a busy one, this isn't ideal.

The latter MOL evenly splits your counter space between the cooking and the baking zones. The sink is closer to the cook top, no walking across an aisle with pots of hot water.

I am viewing your kitchen through my experience. I have a 7' stretch of uninterrupted counter and only 16" of counter on each side of my cook top. I hate it. We are forever bumping into each other when we are prepping meals or when I'm cooking and the rest of the family wants snacks, drinks, or goes to set the table. When we remodel, I'm moving the cook top off the island to the long stretch of counter, 24" on one side, 38" on the other, sink around the corner (I gain counter length because I'm eliminating our corner sink). The island will be 5' of clear space for other prep (still debating on adding a prep sink). I've been observing how we use our kitchen long enough to know that this is the right decision for us. I can't say if it would be the right decision for you. Only you and your wife can determine that.

One more idea for you to mull over.

This puts all the prep work - cooking and baking - in one section of your kitchen with the sink and DW off by itself. I went with an 18" wide DW in this plan, too. I couldn't tell how close to the brick column the sink will be but since you had a slightly wider cook top in that location in your original plan, I figured a sink would also work in that location.

As in my kitchen, that narrow section of counter over the DW (next to the range in your original plan) could be a very busy bit of counter since it's the closest landing spot for fridge items. You may need to make the conscious effort to use the counter next to the back door instead if that proves to be an issue.

I would hate having the stove stuck by itself across the room from the sink and prep space - especially with a walkway in between. I think it's a long string of accidents waiting to happen.

If you cut the sink base down to 30" and went with an 18" DW, you would gain enough inches to the left of the sink to make a reasonable prep space.

Here's my crazy idea. I guess you'll need an island hood for the range top. I don't love the it at the entry, but sink and range top would be on the same counter with a considerable prep space b/w them.

I had one in my island and had it taken out when we replaced our countertops after 15 years. I love the reclaimed space it took up and have not missed it one day since it has been gone but I sure have appreciated the extra space for baking and not having to work around it. I like it so much better now, it made my kitchen look bigger too since now the island has one continuous slab on it instead of a cutout with sink and faucet. I had the lever type of handles on the faucet and was always bumping them with the groceries and turning on the water accidentally when I unloaded the bags. My island is definitely the landing zone so I appreciate having the extra space so much. Not sure if that would be a factor for you. We just didn't use it enough to keep it. I have a 70/30 split sink that suits our needs sufficiently.

"If the path to the back door and the basement is a busy one, this isn't ideal.âÂÂ

It isnâÂÂt a busy one at all. People are not actively going inside/outside while I am cooking a big meal â¦or going to the basement all the time. The cooks are in there ..the others are out and socializing over the peninsula.

"The sink is closer to the cook top, no walking across an aisle with pots of hot water.âÂÂ
How often do you really do that? We cook pasta twice a week and we have a contraption to drain the noodles by raising it up (From the pot). There maybe other times â¦.but its very seldom.

"We are forever bumping into each other when we are prepping meals or when I'm cooking and the rest of the family wants snacks, drinks, or goes to set the table.âÂÂ

I thought about this a lot â¦donâÂÂt really see that for us. No kids. The snacks will be on the east wall with the original design. With this first layout two people can be around the stove, if necessary.

I mapped out 18 inches by 27 inches to see how it would feel for a landing zone and quick light peeping â¦.felt totally fine to me.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=616269125088999&set=a.126969400685643.21359.126743994041517&type=1&theater

ItâÂÂs still a toss up ⦠every photo I see its the prep space needing water source more importantly than the cook space.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=572472522801993&set=a.126969400685643.21359.126743994041517&type=1&theater

I prep and just push down the dirty dishes for cleanup â¦move the prep ingredients over to the cook zone (3 steps) and cook away. For quick improvs like chopping chives etc â¦. I just do it to the left of the stove.

Lisa,
I had a similar thought as you when it came to your latest idea. Putting cleanup on the west wall. There is enough space for both 24 inch washer and a 30 inch sink.
I liked that idea a lot, but my wife didn't and mentioned a couple draw backs:

1) Cleanup is too close to the fridge. So could always hinder it ...especially when putting left overs away while cleaning or when trying to grab stuff from the fridge to cook while someone was cleaning up in between cooking.

2) Prep zone will have no access to water and the 5 feet landing would be too small to prep/clean up at the same time .... I am sold on the idea of two faucets in a sink ... so this would definitely hinder it quite a bit.

I am going to try and cook dinner tonight in a special way .... where I prep on the south wall in the little space I have .....and then land everything to the right of the stove in a 20 inch space ...the see if it will be problematic or not .... we shall see.

Thanks again for all the ideas and am looking forward to more unconventional ones!

I Was thinking about this idea (Sadly I don't know how to draw it up:

1) Get rid of the L on the south wall. As in just a straight shoot all along the east wall. (119 inches from peninsula start on the north to the wall on the south)

2) Leave the peninsula on the north wall.

3) Place the Sink on the East Window (when washing dishes ...my left side will almost touch the peninsula).

4) Place the dishwasher to the right of the sink (24 inch counter on top)

5) Add another 8 inches of space and then put in the range top. (That way we have 32 inches between sink and range top)

6) Leave 18 inches between the range top and the south wall.

7) Now for the interesting bit. The south wall is 87 inches before we hit the external door. On the south wall, west of the window and between the external door (where lisa had her pantry idea). Create a counter top (27 inches with overhang on the south wall and protruding out about 33-36 inches.

This means that we will have the east counter at 27 inches + a standing zone of 33 inches and then a section of counter top of 27 inches

Thoughts?

I thought of a similar lay-out before I drew up the one with the hutch. I'll draw it up for you in a bit. Actually, I'll draw up two, the one you're proposing and a tweak to it. I think these ideas have potential.

We cook a lot, both of us. We have a large kitchen. No prep sink and its never been a problem, even when cooking for 25-30 people.

Assad, here is your idea, provided I correctly interpreted what you meant.

I didn't add uppers above the peninsula next to the back door because I assumed that you and your wife would face the stairs when using this area and an upper would get in the way.

Here's my slight tweak of that idea:

I changed the 8" cab between DW and cook top to a 6" spice pull-out to allow for the 2" space required between cabs in the corner. The run under the window is an 18" deep cab run (custom cab depth) with a 24" cab (standard depth) next to the door with an upper above this one. You get more continuous counter but you're up against two corners at each end.

I came up with a variation of my Plan B, too:

There's only a little wrap around section behind the DW. I realize you don't have a lot of room here but this counter could serve as a buffet/bar/appie space for your DR so even a little bit of extra counter would help.

Across from it and facing the DW is a shallow hutch (est at 12" deep) for dish storage. The rest of the lay-out is the same as it was in Plan B. This plan does encroach into your DR but hopefully in a way that seems purposeful and not awkward. It also eliminates working right next to corners for both sink and cook top, which, IMO, is a plus. The other thing I like about this plan (ditto for D & E) is that it moves the cook top farther away from your gorgeous window trim, which will help protect it from heat and cooking splatter.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Sat, Jan 18, 14 at 19:31

I don't generally express an opinion to sway someone towards a plan (it's your kitchen, only you can decide which plan works best for you), but I'm gonna breaking that rule here. ;-) My favorite of all the plans you're considering is Plan F. I think it will accommodate the needs you expressed in your OP the best. Plan F gives you the most counter and storage space for your small (but charming!) kitchen so it can easily accommodate multiple chefs, including guest chefs (I'm envious!) and it's conducive to entertaining, too.

I like plan F too. Could you push the cooktop right 6" or so? Your primary prep is a smidge small and 6" would make a big difference I think.

The counter to the left of the pantry will make a nice snack area.