You've been busy! You know, I just don't think you can put the fridge in that corner, even as you've drawn it the door won't open all the way and when you need to remove the veggie bin because something was in there just too long, well... You can either swap the fridge and pantry, or just build the plumbing bumpout all the way to the back wall, effectively making the kitchen narrower.

Gotta tell ya, I l.o.v.e. Your table and chairs :)

bpathome - good point about the fridge door! I thought about that little bumpout, and thought (oh, but I never really open the fridge door all the way.) I completely forgot about the veggie drawer - which I hardly ever use in winter, but use for salads in summer a lot!

It will stick out a bit more than I'd like in the other corner - past the basement door, but, truth is, I've been thinking about going with a slightly smaller fridge anyway. If I went with a smaller fridge, it might not stick out at all. Hmmm. Thanks, that is a really important point you just gave me.

OK, the slightly smaller - freezer on the bottom - I've been looking at WOULD fit in that corner!

This post was edited by carrieb on Wed, Feb 12, 14 at 18:22

This morning, I emailed the KD with the idea to reverse kitchen & door (and some other minor stuff.)

She just wrote back that my thoughts were good & she encouraged me to keep thinking about things before we make any decisions.

She also suggested that we could think about building out the bay window to create a seating area with a small round table. Sena recommended that in my last post, which I discounted because it is so close to the door, but I'm giving it a bit more thought now (thanks, sena!)

The bay is currently a "seating bay" (actually not sure what to call it) but it doesn't go all the way to the floor, it starts at about 27" and I keep plants on it. I've attached a photo, below.

What I like about that idea is that windows would be visible from a several dining chairs, which would be really nice, and it could free up space.

My concerns are:

-the bay is only a few feet from the front door, and right behind the couch, so, kind of an odd place for a dining table.

-The bay is much closer to the front door (43") than it is to the kitchen, (92") so, while not far in actual terms, it feels far away in such a small house.

-I'm not sure how I'd use the space where the table is currently. The stairs come down and take up space, so moving the peninsula out further would mean shortening it so as to leave adequate walking clearance. I'm just not sure how to utilize the space between the peninsula and the bay so it doesn't feel like wasted space.

I suppose I could put some bookshelves/cabinets facing out on the peninsula for general home storage, that could help.

And, if we did that, I probably would not put in an extra window on the other side of the peninsula (well, maybe I would, but I'm now thinking probably not.) If that's the scenario, and I didn't put in the additional window, I'd really want French doors or something bigger with windows attached to the door, but, if the peninsula can't move (or can't move much) then more room for a door isn't really possible.

Thoughts?

Still life with bay window, Simon and Moishe.

Hi Carrie, I had a few thoughts after I looked over your first thread. The first few times I tried to look at all the options of the plans your Kitchen Designer gave you, I was not able to get them all to open for me, but I figured out how to look at them and I really liked one of her options. Option #5. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that plan, because it seems to not only give you everything you wanted, but she also put together a good work triangle between the stove, sink and refrigerator and she gave you a counter with seating for four.

She also gave you a window and the door on one wall and a nice big window on the other wall, that you could look out, from working in the kitchen and sitting at the counter.

That was an arrangement I had not thought of. I can't see anything wrong with it at all. And as a kitchen designer, she seems to know her stuff.

I still think you were right the first time, that the bay window as a seating area is just too close to the front door. My vote is for Option #5. :-)

Tell me, what was the reason you didn't like that option?

Thank you again, prairiemoon.

Well, here's what I didn't like about option #5 (I very much liked the window/sink placement!):

1) The only place for upper cabinets are in between the fridge & the stove (about 20", since that's where fridge/stove are now) and above the peninsula between the window & door, so maybe a little awkward to reach.

2) The kitchen seating, other than that one chair at the end, looks at the fridge & range, not at all a nice view, just didn't really seem like pleasant seating to me.

3) It just makes the kitchen really narrow & small with not much storage. If I get a dishwasher, and have a trash/recycling drawer, well, it just doesn't seem like enough space for tupperware containers, food storage(!) wine, utensils....

So, that would be 16 linear feet, total, of kitchen feet (ground floor, anyway.) So, 16' for trash, sink, DW, fridge, pantry, range, and all storage. PLUS seating!

What do you think of those reasons?

This post was edited by carrieb on Wed, Feb 12, 14 at 21:19

Layout #5, for ease of reference:

The other thing about that layout is counter space... there's about 20" between the fridge & range, and then, Oh, I don't know, maybe a bit more on either side of the sink? And I need a place for my coffee maker and my toaster oven.

I guess my kitchen really is small & awkward, eh?

1) To make up for lack of upper cabinets, maybe you could use that now empty wall between the new 5.5ft window and the bay window and add floor to ceiling storage, like a shallow pantry cabinet. Maybe the top of it could have glass doors to store dishes and glasses?

2) The seating facing away from the window. Do you entertain a lot and use those 3 stools on the side that faces away? If it were few times that they would be used, and every day you could work at that sink/counter and sit at the stool that looks out the window, might make it worth it. And you could use swivel stools so people could turn and look out the window too.

3) I don’t think it makes it narrow and small. I think all the glass from the window, the door and the new 5.5ft window on the other wall, just open it up a lot and make it look larger. But unless you could use the other wall to make up for storage, I guess you are right, there’s not enough storage in that arrangement.

Well, Carrie, have you ever played that game, Whack a Mole? That is what it feels like trying to get a floor plan here. You take care of one issue and a different issue pops up! [g]

Ok….well, that plan does give you… a great work triangle, sink, stove, refrigerator. It gives you a window and a door on one wall and a great window on the other. You should be able to fit the sink and DW on the peninsula, and a drawers between the stove and fridge for utensils and pans on the base and a small amount of upper storage there. You can also get a stove that has a lower drawer that stores pots. It gives you more seating than any other plan and is not in the way of the front door. Maybe you could take some measurements and see how much of a floor to ceiling cabinet you could fit in that space between the new 5.5ft window and the Bay Window. And try to figure out if that would give you all the storage you need. Did you ask the KD where she thought you would have storage in that plan?

Ok, a storm coming tomorrow morning…. :-)

You make some good points, prairiemoon.

I will say that the space between that 5.5 window (wow, that big window does make me drool) and the bay is pretty narrow - less than 3', (plus, there's that bumpout (4") so even a shallow 12" (do they come that narrow?) would hamper flow, right?

You're absolutely right - it's almost always just me, and I'd sit at the end. I do host on airbnb, with paid short-term guests/tenants, but I'm not designing for them. ;-)

I think you're right about the window opening things up. Dang if I don't wanna live in a glass house!

Another thing that is good about that plan is it leaves that current door exactly where it is, so it could save some money (and certainly a new hole in the wall.)

I think I did talk to the KD about storage for that plan, and she agreed that there wasn't much.

Hope the storm largely spares you. I'm in its path, too. Keep talking to me, prairiemoon. Don't let my constant arguments deter you!

Carrie, I wonder if you have looked at the thread on the Kitchen Forum, with the title…..

"kitchen reveal almost completed not staged kitchen-need tile help"

That person is also dealing with a very small unusual space. And her kitchen is already half way done. It was an older kitchen and she made a lot of smart decisions with the layout. You notice that she has only those two little windows and no upper cabinets above the stove. She has very little storage, but has a pantry that makes up for it some. And NO seating!

I'm not following you on the dimension of 3ft between the 5.5ft window and the bay. It looks like a lot more than that. If you start the cabinet from the edge of the bay window, in the drawing you have the width of the stairs and the most of the width of the basement door on the other side, so that has to be more than 3ft. And you could do a cabinet that was 12" deep on the outside edges near the windows with a 2ft deep section in the middle without interfering with anything. That might be a lot of space from floor to ceiling. Especially since you have higher ceilings.

Ok, gotta go. I will try to come back in the next couple of days if I can think of anything else. Hope the storm isn't too much where you are either. :-)

Hey - answering right away, because I'm here & obsessed. Will communicate more after we've both weathered the storm.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I was referring to the width between the peninsula & the new window, not the distance between the two windows. So, walking toward the kitchen, from the front door, If there were cabinets along that wall on the right, I'd have to veer left (slightly) between the steps & the cabinet(s) and then swerve back in to go out the back door, between the peninsula & new window. And, then, there's that 4" bumpout, as well.

Well, if you mean you would not have a direct shot between the front door and that back door, that would be correct. You might want to play around with some masking tape on the floor to outline where a tall cabinet could go on that wall and what the shape and depth of it was, so you could live with it for a couple of days and see what you think of it.

But on my way out, I took another look at the new layout that you presented at the beginning of this thread. I think that could work too. If I understand it, the wall that now has the window and the door on it, would be a straight run of cabinets and counter from the corner where the door was, to a refrigerator in the corner. Good point about not being able to open the door. Ask the KD if there is some way she can think of to allow that fridge to fit in that corner. If you have the bottom freezer, it can be pulled straight out, and if you get double doors on the top you only have a short door to open on the wall side. Maybe she can fit a little filler space between the wall and the fridge that wld allow the door to open fully.

The 33” window next to the fridge, is only on top of the counter and base cabinet right? Not to the floor. The corner on the other side of the stove could be either upper lower cabinet, or floor to ceiling cabinet again. Depending on which way you need the storage more and if there is more counter there, do you need it. The sink and peninsula and upper cabinet and table and chairs look pretty good too. If you didn’t need that upper cabinet between the door and the table, you could extend a window from the door to the end of the table, at counter height.

The pantry near the basement I would think, opening toward the peninsula.

One more thing. I wonder if there are kitchen designer 'specialists'? You know like someone who is expert at large kitchens, someone expert at small kitchens? And where does your KD fit in the scheme of things. Maybe you should ask her what her experience is with small kitchens. Maybe another KD would have more experience with small spaces.

Ok…that’s all I can think of. Just wanted you to know what I thought of your plan and give you something to think about. I cannot confirm whether the dimensions are all right and will fit what you’ve drawn, but the KD should be able to do that.

Thanks, prairiemoon. No matter how I look at it, I see a cabinet on that long wall as jutting out into space I use for walking so much as to be really obtrusive.

Yes, given option #4 (modified, there would be a straight run along the back of the house, with the current door being blocked off. The window on that back wall would have to have its sill raised 6-8" so that it started above the counter.

All good points about the fridge door. It may also end up making sense to switch the location of the fridge & the pantry cabinet across from it on that wall.

Very interesting idea about putting tall cabinet in the corner across from the sink, and then not needing uppers over the peninsula and expanding the window. I like it! It seems like that area in the corner (where the door is now) would be sort of an odd place for a counter - kind of tucked in a back corner where it would not get used except to accumulate clutter.

Good point about the KD, I don't know what her specialties are. I think she's used to working with more high end clients than I am, which could indicate larger spaces, but she also lives & works in the city, so maybe she does have small space experience. I did hire her based on a recommendation that she was "very, very good at figuring out space issues."

Thanks, again. You've given me a lot to think about. Stay safe & warm.

Edited to add: thanks so much for pointing me in the direction of that sweet little blue kitchen - it is absolutely lovely! I covet that pantry.

This post was edited by carrieb on Thu, Feb 13, 14 at 6:24

Carrie, I'm glad you're close to your final layout.

I believe it was prairemoon's idea to have seating at bay window area.

For the pantry fridge area I have an idea, but I'm not sure if it can work with an in-swinging door and how convenient it would be to have the sink and range partly across each other.

Btw, you show 40" b/w the 2 counters. Did you include 1 or 1'5" counter overhang? If, not that would be 38" distance if you go with 1" overhang. Would that be enough for the door, casing or whatever else you're planning there?

Now here's my idea:

If you move the sink to the north wall as much as possible (w/o hitting your head to the upper there), and move the range to the north slightly (just leave enough space for the opened door, and that could be maximum 36" I guess)., and have only a 15" cab next to the range, I think you can then have the fridge and some pantry cabs facing that north wall. If you have a 30" range, with 36" and 15" on the sides plus 4" for overhang + space around range that'll be 85", leaving you 59" for the pantry and opening in front. I think you can have something like this.

For the tall cab on the right of the fridge I'm thinking drawers at the bottom part (shown in green), then an opening for toaster and coffee machine, etc., and the red part represents doors that roll up, like the white in this picture, so they won't hit the window. The double door part above it would still be below the window, but I think you'd prefer to keep less used things there, so can be manageable.

[

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by London Interior Designers & Decorators Celia James

I hope you, your cute ones,and your beautiful garden are coping well with the weather conditions there. We, at the other end of the world (but still in the Northern Hemisphere), are having an early spring, which might mean water shortages for this summer--((.

Thanks, sena!

My drawing just really estimated how wide things would be (but is, mostly, to scale with actual house measurements.) I made that counter along the back wall, & the peninsula, too 30", thinking they would actually be more like 24" with an overhang, but I wanted to be generous with spacing - so I didn't end up having not enough space for things I thought I could fit. Did that last make any sense at all?

The truth is that I hardly use my range at all - my airbnb guests use the kettle to boil water for tea, and once a month or so, I (or my guests) fry eggs on the cooktop and every so often I'll heat up a frozen pizza in the oven...My KD is encouraging me to consider just getting a cooktop (maybe even one with ony 2 or 3 burners) with a convection microwave mounted above it - no regular oven at all. I'm thinking about it - it would save space, and I really hardly use my stove. According to my KD, many modern efficiency urban condo apartments are now doing that...

Oh, I think you mean move the sink closer to the west wall - the wall with the bay window? The fridge is up against the east wall. Am thinking (if I do get a DW at all) that I'll get an 18" DW, and it would be to the left of the sink (I'm left-haded.) So, if I did that, the sink could start after the DW.

Thanks for your ideas. More to think about. I'm not sure I like the look of the back counter ending halfway through the window - it just looks odd to me, somehow, but the thought of having both the fridge and pantry facing in to the kitchen makes a lot of sense.

I wish we were having an early spring, but water shortages are no fun, either!

This morning's view out the bay (looking back)

Yes, I meant the wall with the bay window. Would that be west? Probably I read this drawing incorrectly, I thought it said north.

Anyway, I have a new drawing, and I think a small cooktop and a convection MW is a great idea. Or if your MW is new, maybe a toaster oven can be considered. Depends on cost and available counter I guess.

Ok, in the new layout I decreased the depth of cabs on the cooktop wall to 24", thinking that would make it easier to use the wall you now have the fridge. Base cabs continue, and I have corner base cab. If that wall next to the basement door is 8', a 36' corner susan, fridge and a fairly good sized pullout or rollout pantry can fit there. You can have a deeper upper, maybe 15", over the corner (maybe going too deep would not be a very good idea). Some love corner susans, some hate. I don't know if they are useful next to a fridge. But, if you decide to consider it, your sister, KD or other posters in this forum may give you ideas,. And I believe there are also other corner options available.

.

Hah! You read it right - I wrote it wrong!

I like your most recent idea for that fridge wall. Definitely worth thinking about. Leaves the fridge about where it is now, but moves it a bit to the right to make room for pull out pantry. I suppose I could also reverse your fridge/pantry spacing & still have the corner counter going around. Will have to figure out how to deal with the odd bumpout/set in thing on that wall (will post a photo of it, below.)

What do you think of prairiemoon's idea of possibly doing a full-height cabinet in the back right corner, eliminating the wall cab on the peninsula & making a bigger window over peninsula & table?

Bumpout/in is about 8" deep, 72" tall & 36" wide.

I liked prairemoon's idea but forgot to mention it. If you have the 2-3 burner you'll have a wider room for a tall, then base cab and the cooktop, If you go with a bigger range/cooktop I think it can still be doable, but since you can't have a tall cab right next to cooking (guess code won't allow that), your tall and base cab would be smaller.

Fridge can go anywhere on that east wall, as long as you can open it w/o hitting the peninsula, and if it's next to the basement wall you have to make sure you can fully open the door, use drawers etc. If you have the pantry as prairemoon suggested, the base cabs can continue more to the left, and the corner can be used more efficiently and more important,the window can be extended over the peninsula. Wow, Carrie that would be terrific!

Yeah, I'm really liking the idea of more/bigger windows. I must sound like a broken record on that.

Do you think that storing dishes/drinkware in a tall cabinet in the corner across from the sink will too awkward, as compared to storing them in an upper over the peninsula? Might be worth it, anyway. I suppose, too, that if I do put a door there, with an inswing (not ideal, but, apparently, pretty standard for ext. doors) having it open all summer will be a pain when I want to put dishes away in that tall cabinet (and getting them, out, too, for that matter.) Hmmm. And I think that inswinging (if that's what I end up having to go with) should open toward the corner, not toward the sink (I'm left handed, for one, so it would be easier for me.)

Right now, the fridge is directly across from the peninsula (which is pretty much same size, same location as in recent drawings) and opening the door & drawers all the way is absolutely no problem!

I haven't met anyone not liking big windows, why should you be an exception, especially with that great garden? You seem to have the opportunity to have both storage and a big window with that layout.

I think, even if you go a little deeper than 24" on that back wall, you'll still be able to open both the cab and the DW at the same time and unloading will be quite easy.Since the cab will be deeper than an upper cab, things can get lost at the back. So, If budget permits, consider drawers below counter height. Some use drawers for glass storage as well.

If the door opens toward the corner that would make loading the DW easier, too.

Sena great job on that 3D drawing. You have a nice program there!

I like this layout a lot. It really opens it up because if all the big bulky pieces like the fridge and the floor to ceiling cabinets are all along that back wall and basement door wall, and the peninsula has all lower cabinets, you can see all the way from the front door right to the back.

Having the floor to ceiling cabinet between the basement door and fridge, seems to take care of the problem of opening the refrigerator door.

I was wondering, about not having a stove. I think it would add more value to the house to have an actual stove and wonder if you might consider a 24 inch stove? I see they have them with drawers in the bottom that would give you a place for pots. And you would have a cooktop and an oven without having to cover your counters with other appliances to make up for it. And are you having some kind of ventilation over the cooktop? Since you are on an outside wall, it's a whole lot easier to do.

I do like the idea of putting cabinets in that back corner behind the door, which I think you mentioned, Carrie, that as counter space it was sort of useless. I think I have a little claustrophobia too. My Mom definitely had it and she also always had to have an open plan and a lot of windows. I would feel claustrophobic standing at that counter in the corner to work. I agree that if that is the final location of the stovetop/stove you do need to have counter on both sides. So, I think Sena was suggesting having a floor to ceiling cabinet, but with the upper portion being more shallow, if I understand her right. It could also be a glass door on the upper part. Or you could just have a regular depth lower cabinet and a regular depth upper cabinet, again with a glass door, that went to the ceiling. With your high ceilings and cabinets, you might want to figure on somewhere to put a good stepstool too.

Can the window on the stove wall, be taller?

And if all that fits and all the doors open, I hope you have room on the peninsula for pullout rubbish under the counter? What could make a pretty new kitchen look worse than the rubbish having to sit out somewhere? [g] Maybe on the wall side of the sink? With the dishwasher on the other end because I am wondering if the dishwasher door would interfere with the outside door when you open it because of the door knob? And if you had the dishwasher door open to empty it and the tall cabinet in that corner had a glass door for dishes and glasses, would there be enough room to stand between the dishwasher and the cabinet to put the dishes away? Or would you have to empty it to the counter above, shut the dishwasher and then put away in the cabinet?

This gives you a lot more storage than I thought you were going to get and I think you might have room for a decent size window above the peninsula/table somehow?

Here is a link that might be useful: Small Ranges

Prairiemoon! Thanks for your snowstorm visit.

The fridge is against the basement wall now, directly across from the end of the peninsula, and there's absolutely no problem opening it all the way, so, it could remain against the basement wall, or it could have a tall pantry cabinet to the left of it.

A smaller oven is a possibility, and I've looked at a bunch of them (oh my gosh - how much research have I done!) and they tend to be a good deal more expensive - and with less good ratings than the 30" ovens. And if I get a 24", it's only saving me 6". If I got a 24" or 30" (or even a 20") range, I'd still have a microwave (probably over the range.) So, if I go with a cooktop & an over-the-range convection micro, I gain 30" (or 24" or 20") of cabinet space below.

I will have a toaster oven (on the counter, I'm assuming) regardless of the stove issue. I am not planning on doing any ventilation (with the possible exception of the ones that come on over-the-range micros) - I never have had a hood, and it's never been an issue for me - I get that they're necessary for people who cook more.

I think what you (and sena) say about the back right corner having counter space, a shallower top cabinet and possible glass doors on top makes a lot of sense. The glass could make that corner feel more open, and I do have some nice ceramic bowls and platters that would be nice to have on display. And, yeah, having a counter there seems like it would just get kind of lost. Especially, assuming a door there would be open most of the summer, I wouldn't be able to get to it with the door open anyway (which may be an issue with cabinets, too. Good point about a stepstool!

The window on the stove wall is pretty tall, probably less than 12" from the ceiling.

I am assuming that I will find room for pullout trash & recycling somewhere! Agreed that that is important. And my KD has mentioned that several times, too. She feels strongly about that. If possible, I really would like the DW to be to my left (wall side) when I'm at the sink - the old lefty thing. About time it get accommodated, ya know? If the peninsula is 72", and the DW is 18", sink is, just say 24", well, we've still got 30" to work with there - plus, there's room all along the back wall for trash, too, right?

You do make a really good point (never would have occurred to me!) about the DW & the doorknob. It seems like if I've got an extra inch or two of space, that could be fine, you know, if the DW is back just a couple of inches of where the door would be. I'm pretty sure I could have the DW open at the same time as the cabinets across from it - that is, assuming the kitchen door is closed - but I'll have to go look at measurements of extensions of open dishwashers and cabinet doors to be able to tell that for sure. Hmmm.

Of course, the kitchen door (assuming I go with that) being open will get in the way of those cabinets in the corner, assuming that door will be pretty much open any time I am home and it's daytime and the weather is good. I would so love a nice sized window next to that glass door!

Just another note: I'm probably going with IKEA for cabinetry, Ramsjo White. So, I'll be limited by what they have - I just looked at their high cabinets, and they only come in 24" depth, and it does not look like you can get them with any glass doors. It also looks like only certain ones of their high cabinets can come with Ramsjo White doors (I'd thought it was all mix & match, but from their website, it looks like that may not be the case)

Thanks prairemoon, I'm glad the program is still helping others to visualize things , after I'm through with my own reno (also hope will prevent me from developing Alzheimer's ))

The KD/pros would know better, but at least the program's default for door handles is 36" above floor.So, if you aren't considering a counter height higher than the standard 36" you should be OK. I think there'll be fillers on each side of the door to accommodate for the thickness of the door casing.

You can consider glass sliding doors for the upper part of the cab and drawers below, or maybe the KD can come up with something better.

Oh' just noticed your last message about Ikea cabs. No sliding doors then.

Well here is where your KD can help you a lot in making sure that the ideas you have will actually work. With the exact measurements, she should be able to advice you about specific conflicts, like the dishwasher when it is open and the doorknob. Is there actually an 18" dishwasher? I didn't know that.

I would not worry about the door being open n the summer. That is just a fact of life I don't think you can get around. And I would assume you are not running the dishwasher more than once a day, so it's a small window of time that it is an issue. I have my refrigerator behind an open door in summer and that never has reached annoyance levels. I don't even notice it.

Well, maybe you have a fairly solid plan! :-) I think you can still tweak it and make it suit you, but the basic layout might just work. I seem to have run out of suggestions…lol.

I wonder if Sena thinks it is a workable plan?

I'd run it all by the Kitchen Designer again and see if she sees any issues or has any more suggestions.

Snow is coming down like mad the last hour, but I don't think it's going to be too bad. I just hope the rain misses us.

Thanks, sena. I LOVE your drawings! I'm not very good at "seeing" layouts in one dimension, and your drawings have been soooo helpful!

A friend recommended the free design program SweetHome3D, which I downloaded - but I've already spent many very frustrating hours trying to figure it out, and I just can't get it - even though she told me it was really simple to use. I wish I was less technologically idiotic.

Such good news about the dishwasher/door!

I probably have some flexibility re: IKEA, but my budget is tight and with moving around windows & doors... well, I just don't know.

Sena, I didn't see you there. So you are working on your own reno too? Busy person! Your program really makes a BIG difference in visualizing things. I don't have an easy time doing that and 3D is excellent!

I didn't take the time to look up your Ikea cabinets, Carrie, but I just quickly looked at their kitchen page and I do see some glass upper cabinets. Maybe a different style than yours? Also were in white, Link below.

I've heard a lot of good things about Ikea kitchen cabinets.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ikea cabinets, some with glass tops

Prairiemoon - I had not seen your second to last comment when I last responded to sena. Yup, there is an 18" dishwasher - yeah for me!

It's more the cabinets behind the door that could be an issue than the DW, but, even so, I don't think that's a major issue for me. My bet is that I will actually use the DW very rarely.

It's been raining here most of the morning. It is supposed to turn back to snow, at some point, for another couple inches of accumulation.

The IKEA cabinets with glass doors you linked to are upper wall cabinets, not the tall full-height cabinets, and those, unfortunately, have doors with different dimensions. My KD says really good things about IKEA.

Will absolutely be running things by the KD. I'm trying to get things firmly set enough in my mind, doing as much of the research as I can - oh, and to be honest, getting as much free advice from you as possible (!) in lieu of paying her by the hour. Thanks for the free labor!

Carrie, I've heard of a site callled ikea fans. You may want to check their page.

I think at one time in the past I downloaded that Sweethome 3D, and many, many others. It takes sometime but once you learn one, most have similar features. Prairemoon, I planned/waited for my reno for maybe 6-7 years and at a time when I lost all hope of doing the reno (budget-- sounds familiar, huh?), I met a cab guy and finished the reno 2 years ago. I didn't know of gardenweb at the time, and this program helped me a lot.

Carrie, I too heard of very good thinks about Ikea kitchens. They also have a planner. I forgot the details now but, maybe you can try it.

I'm speaking for myself of course, but I'm sure prariemoon and others following this and other treads would agree, I never consider this as a labor. I'm happy to be able to share my own experiences/mistakes with others while learning a lot more things from them.

Hah - sena! I've spent almost as much time at IKEAfans as I have here! I wish I had the creativity & ingenuity of those folks!

Yeah, I've heard of IKEA's planner - my experience w/ sweet home, and with technology in general has scared me away. And I'd heard that SweetHome was easy & that IKEA's planner is a pain, so, if I'm having problems with SweetHome...

I am so, so appreciative of the time and effort you, and prairiemoon, and several others on other posts of mine have given me. It's been so very helpful to me.

Paying a KD, ouch! I never did that. I had preliminary plans done by computer at a Lowe's when we were first starting and didn't know anything. And I was under the impression that Cabinet companies will give you a KD's time included in the cabinet purchase, but I suppose that is where IKEA saves money, without KDs.

Well, you are right to try to get other GW or IKEAfan members to share their experiences and ideas and work it out and do as much research on your own as you can. Then maybe when you have everything the way you want it, spend the money to get the KD to review it for any mistakes.

Also, more than happy to share time and ideas. I would like to see you get a kitchen you are happy with Carrie!

Well, the IKEA folks in the store will help you with design, you know, it they have time, but... and I'm so new to this, and know/knew nothing about kitchens & design, and my space is awkward, I just thought that decent design help would be money well spent. I still think so.

The designer is the one that came up with those five proposals. I just tried to download the IKEA planning tool, but I can't even get the darned thing to turn on (where's that power button?) Yikes.

I'm much better with human beings - see why I pay people/seek out volunteers?