Sea Klear makes an outstanding product that is as affordable as phosphate removal can get when you consider the effectiveness for $ spent. Expect about about $35/qt but the stuff works. The nature of phosphate removal requires backwashing as you are "floccing' the material and it has to come out some way. We've found that only one backwash after treatment is the norm.

jaxd,
Are the phosphates causing some problem or is the pool store just telling you that you have high phosphates?

Phosphates are about the last thing you should do something about if you're having a problem with algae. High levels can cause problems but that's extremely rare.
Insufficient chlorination for your CYA level is the cause of algae blooms about 99+% of the time

Kurtv - In many cases, high levels of phosphates can tie up free chlorine (especially with pools on salt generators). I live in a rural area with citrus and avocado groves and there is a lot of dust and debris including fertilizer blowing in the air. This is where phosphates come from. When phosphate levels get over 500 it is super food for algae and even in well sanitized pools it will create algae. I found a product at Leslies yesterday called Phos Free. It is designed to control phosphates, algae and not clogg the filter. One capful for every 8,000 gal. Weekly dosage required. One small bottle treats 137,000 gal. We will see.

Kurt do you have any hard research to prove your claims, or you just parroting the pool solutions people? Who said "It's really rare"? Phosphate are plant food the best fertilizers have the most phosphates. The reason while phosphate removers are becoming more and more popular is because many pool professionals are seeing the exact opposite that you theorize.

I have observed many times pools with high phosphates having severe algae blooms with the cyanuric being less than 40ppm

We rarely have high cyanuric problems here due to the ammount of rain we get.

jax,
Phosphates are very rarely the cause of, or even contributor to, algae growth in a properly sanitized pool. Phosphates can be algae food but do not "tie up free chlorine".

If everything else, especially pH and sanitizer levels (for you level of CYA), is in order and you still get algae, phosphate treatment might be indicated. Otherwise, you're throwing money away.

Very rarely is dumping a bottle of this or a cap full of that the right solution to a water quality problem. It might mask the symptom for a while but that symptom will usually come back with a vengeance.

Phosphate control is a must on a lot of my pool owners pools. As said the free is getting tied up from the organic material and simply cannot do it's job... If you don't think it true... throw a little fertilizer in your pool and see what happens.....Phos Free is a great product see link below

Here is a link that might be useful: PhOS Free

I would urge any pro out there to investigate Sea Klears literature and studies on phosphates. I'm not a shill for them but after 25 years of this works great and that doesn't, I've been very impressed with their program and products. The bottom line is algae cannot grow without the presence of phosphates. When treated, AND algae dies, they will release phosphate into the water which is a pretty good indicator that it is needed for growth. Many pool guys who are not aware of the total picture will say the removers are not needed nor do they work as they will treat, algae will die off and then there is a residual phosphate level. They do not understand the whole process. We treat hundreds of thousands of gallons of commmercial water annually and this is the first year we have started out with the SK phosphate remover and we have zero algae issues even in the presence of a dirty filter or lower than desired chlorine and pH level.

Kurt - I have to disagree with you. Phosphates are a real problem here in So CA and that is evidenced by the amount of testing that is being done for them at the pool stores. and by pool maint. folks. After adding Phos Free this past Wed. my chlorine level went from 0 to 4 as of this afternoon. I have my SWG at 85%. The green and black algae are disappearing. I am a believer. Our temps have been in the hi 90's for the past 10 days.

jax,
As I said in my first post, phosphates CAN be a problem but that that's the last thing you should treat. You may be one of those rare cases where phosphate treatment is required but it's unlikely. We'll never know for sure, but I'll bet your results would have been just as good had you brought your chlorine to shock levels and kept it there until the organics that were consuming it were oxidized (the phosphates weren't consuming the chlorine, it was the algea and it still is). You still need to shock anyway since you still have algae.

If you do have black algae, that's a sign of insufficient chlorination over the long-term and supports my contention that the root cause of your problem is not enough chlorine rather than too much phosphate.

racket said: "Kurt do you have any hard research to prove your claims, or you just parroting the pool solutions people? Who said "It's really rare"? Phosphate are plant food the best fertilizers have the most phosphates. The reason while phosphate removers are becoming more and more popular is because many pool professionals are seeing the exact opposite that you theorize."

I have exactly the same amount of "hard research" that you have. All the evidence is anecdotal and experiential.

Many other "pool profesionals" say exactly the same thing I'm saying. The difference is that the "pool professionals" on your side of the argument have a financial interest in the position you're taking (as, I believe, do you).

Sure phosphates are algae food, but almost all pools have sufficient levels of phosphates (or other nutrients) to support algae growth. So why don't all pools have algae? Because there are sufficient algaecides in the water to prevent growth; chlorine being the cheapest and most effective one. Since you need it for sanitation anyway, why not just keep enough of it in the pool to do the job?

There are good arguments on both sides. Some 20-30 years ago we had low flow pumps as our only choice. then came the high flow and uprated pumps. Then the super high flow ones. Now we are seeing we don't need that and we can do better with variable drive pumps. Bottom line is that thought changes and results do too. Ask any car mechanic if we need all that stuff under the hood of if that 68 Camaro will do just fine. It's all in your experience. The truth is that any algae can become resistant algae in the best kept pools. The cleanest filter, most circulated water and consistantly sanitized pools will grow algae. So why we need to consider items such as phosphates as a part of the total picture of water chemistry becomes very important, not a last resort. Example, that perfect pool in terms of chlorine, algaecide, filtration will do nothing if we have a total dissolved solids of 5000ppm. TDS is a part of the picture and phosphates should be too. As we only check TDS a couple of times per year, we don't need to check for phosphates weekly and run out and buy unnecessary product, but we should be under 250ppb for best results. There are great algaecides that retain residuals for 90 days and they work great with a proper amount of chlorine, a clean filter and a good phosphate remover.

"Many other "pool profesionals" say exactly the same thing I'm saying. The difference is that the "pool professionals" on your side of the argument have a financial interest in the position you're taking (as, I believe, do you)"

Yeah that $9.95 I made last year of phosphate remover was very lucrative for me.

I am not a pool cleaner and only sel chemicals to my service, constuction clients upon their request (we are not a retail or janitorial firm).

We only have looked to phosphates when shocking the hell out of a pool did not kill the algae, or it was consistantly coming back.

I know there are some people who think that pool stores are pirates and profiteers.

racket said: "We only have looked to phosphates when shocking the hell out of a pool did not kill the algae, or it was consistantly coming back."

So we agree completely on when phosphate treatment is necessary. Where's the beef?

As to whether you profit substantially from selling phosphate remover, I stand corrected. My point, however, remains as it regards many retailers and service people; they can make a lot of money on a bottle of phosphate remover.

I know that there are good people in all aspects of the pool business from contruction, to service and repair, to pool stores. Unfortunately, the pool business also seems to attract MORE than its share of hucksters and scammers. Some pool stores are particularly infamous and their markup on products like alkalinity up (which is baking soda) and pH up (which borax is equivalent to or an excellent substitute for) are shameful. Equally shameful is hawking things like clarifier, flocculant, phosphate treatment, and a multitude of algaecides that usually, at best, mask the symptoms of the true problem. I actually have no problem with the pool stores that operate this way; caveat emptor. But they shouldn't have any problem when someone calls them on it.

"So we agree completely on when phosphate treatment is necessary. Where's the beef? "

Well, I guess I am too lazy to check for phosphates unless it's warranted.

When a client is paying good money for your expertise, is it not in your best interest to prevent things from happening at their expense rather than wait for something to go wrong then be responsible for the remedy?

We also have no proof that removing phosphates from the water causes harm. So if a pool store suggests that someone remove phosphates are they hurting anything besides the clients bank account?

When you goto a car dealership they charge a premium for their services and parts and have their preset intervals at which services they should perform. Most of the time you could wait until something fails or do as they say.

"I actually have no problem with the pool stores that operate this way; caveat emptor. ."

Why are people so interested in saving wealthy people money? Having a pool in most markets is not something people below the poverty spend their monthly checks on.

There is many times that you can buy an item at a grocery or big box store for less money, but lets face it. Pool stores provide a service and if people are willing to pay the extra money for that service, I really do not see what the problem is.

IMO phosphate removers do seem to be the new "in" thing that is being pushed by the pool stores. My mother-in-law has been battling algae in her pool almost constantly for the last 2 seasons, and her pool store keeps telling her it's a phosphate problem. She has spent hundreds of dollars over the last couple of years on algicides, phosphate absorbers, etc. and the problem keeps coming back. I went over to her house the other day to try and help her out and tested her CYA level - it was over 100ppm.

So I'm just curious if the pool store never bothered to test her stabilizer for 2 years, or if they just conveniently ignored it while pushing bandaids and ignoring the cause of the problem. I prefer to side with "incompetant" over "fraudulent", but neither one is very comforting.

BTW - I agree with a lot of what kurtv was saying. I used to be very active in the saltwater aquarium hobby (talk about a money pit!), and a few years ago phosphates became the talk of the town in that hobby. You saw all kinds of expensive "phosphate sponges" and such on the market, and all of them worked - temporarily and at a relatively high cost. Experienced hobbyists kept preaching that the solution was to limit the introduction of phosphates in the first place, but it's hard to sell someone on good husbandry and maintenance when someone else has a magic bullet to sell. I suspect the same is true in the pool market as well.