Ask them, are you doing FSBO? Get a copy of the appraisal. When you say "potential buyers", do you mean under contract or are they still negotiating the offer?

cmarlin20- still negotiating offer nothing in writing yet. Not sure what you mean about the FSBO, we are with realtor, but they are selling their house FSBO. They work in mtg. industry so either they did appraisal themselves or had someone they know do it for them.

I asked if you were FSBO because you are asking questions your agent should be able to tell you.
Did they submit a written offer, that your agent gave you. Forget the appraisal for now, you first need an acceptable offer (in writing). It appears they are just negotiating with you, did you accept the first offer? Do not discuss anything that is not in writing, your agent should be explaining this to you, what did your agent tell you? Are you speaking directly with the "buyer"?

You would have to be severely over priced to have the appraisal come back $34,000 low. They probably had an appraiser look at comps in the computer and compared them to your house, but without an appraiser actually coming out, measuring and seeing your house, the appraisal isnt valid. It seems to me they are just trying to get the house for a lower price. Has your agent ever said you were priced too high?

cmarlin- no written offer and we verbally counteroffered to a number that was acceptable to us they are asking for tv's etc. to be left behind, which is no big deal if it sells my house, but now I am thinking they just want to get us to lower the price more, which I will not do. They are communicating with my agent, they do not have one.

Linda- I had 3 CMA's done and they all came back in the same range, actually higher because, we lowered our price already.

If they are in the mortgage industry, my guess is that they had an appraiser who they know quite well do a "drive-by" appraisal (if they are really serious about your house). If they are not so serious, they most likely just punched in your address to their software & up came an "appraisal" number based on statistical analysis. Are they accurate? Well, depends. Most all appraisals for junior liens in today's world are computer generated. And, there are even lenders who do just "drive-by's" for a purchase money mortgage (probably a lot fewer do this today than three years ago). The other possibility is, if they are local, they are very familar with the market & just flew with their "educated" guess for value.

If you are listed with a Realtor, stuff shouldn't be happening like this. You should have received a written offer from the potential buyers along with anything else they had to say (like this "appraisal" business). That offer should have been presented by the buyer's Realtor (assuming they are using one which I doubt they are) & that would have been the opportunity to ask about this mysterious "appraisal".

For your purposes now...don't be intimidated by them tossing the word "appraisal" around. For sure, tell your Realtor to get busy & clean-up the way this offer is happening. You shouldn't be going back/forth verbally.

All that said, what you're describing is exactly how my DH & I purchase properties & it's always been successful for us. Sounds like you're getting very close to agreeing on price with just $7K separating you. It's time to get something in writing!

Best wishes for fair winds & smooth sailing!
Tricia

Tricia- I thought we were getting close but now they seem like these are the type that will be nightmares through the process. My agent has never given us a written offer. I didn't think it was necessary, should I push for them to be written? They didn't tell us about the appraisal, they told my agent and then were like "can you do something about this?" wink wink. what is wrong with people?

I don't know that an offer is valid if it's not in writing. In our area realtors insist it be a written offer before they will present it to the seller.

I certainly would not take the "appraisal" price they gave you in to any consideration. Don't fall for it or even give it a second thought. You know at best it's a low estimate based on a drive-by and you have 3 CMA's to validate your pricing.

You said they are in the mortgage industry. Does your realtor know them personally or has your realtor worked with them before? It would be unusual in our area for a realtor to present an offer to the seller if there was not a written offer ... makes me wonder how well your realtor and these people know each other.

I'm not sure that anything is *wrong* with the potential buyers. They sound as if they're trying to find out your rock bottom price without going through too much hassle, which is to their benefit. That doesn't mean you, or your RE agent, should play the game their way.

I'd be annoyed with an agent who wasted my time with an oral offer. It's unprofessional of your agent, IMHO, and would make me reconsider whether I wanted that person to represent me in a major transaction. Any future offers and counter-offers should absolutely be in writing, and the buyer's offer should be accompanied by earnest money sufficient to show that they are serious.

As far as appraisals, they're not worth much (IMHO.) We've had appraisals, done by certified appraisors - not just RE agents or someone's uncle, that varied by as much as 20%. I've found errors in the # of bathrooms, garage size, square footage, etc. When our houses have been appraised for refinancing or equity lines, the number has always come in higher than the appraisals for sale. On the last two sales, our initial appraisals came in low. I not only pointed out the errors, but also gave the appraisors info on recent sales that were more comparable to our house. The "corrected" appraisals then came in $2 - 3K above the sales prices (one increase was approx. $15K.) It's not an exact science. I'd be more inclined to trust the valuation of an experienced, professional RE agent who really knows my neighborhood and who can show me recent comps and point out what makes those houses worth more or less in the current market.

liketolearn- these people came in off an open house and my agent had to scrape her jaw off my tile floor when they said the appraisal price. She does not know them. I am in NY (LI) every offer I have had has been verbal and even the one I made on the house I am in contract with now was not written.

otm- why would they put in an offer, have us go higher and then accept and then try to go back to a number much much lower than their initial offer. We want to sell, but we are not desperate. I think they are just super cheap at this point. They may lose this house being that way. I have no patience for people who try to play games. I am just really po'd-- just venting.

This verbal stuff has come up before on the forum. Evidently it is "normal" in NY to hash out some stuff before the offer/contract is written. Different customs in different places, I guess -- like letting a seller stay in the house after the closing. Both are no-no's in my area.

I'd ignore the appraisal claim for now. Stick to your price. If they push it, let them produce the written appraisal -- for which they will have to pay more -- and then you can decide if it is of any importance to you.

I appreciate all the feedback.

Chisue- The thing is I am pretty sure they just had the appraiser that works for the mtg. brokerage they work for do it for them which would mean of course they are probably doing in in their favor. Would it benefit me going out an having my own appraisal done. I hope these people walk away. I just don't like when people try to take advantage without ground.

"I hope these people walk away. I just don't like when people try to take advantage without ground."

Don't get emotional about these people, get your agent to do his job, you shouldn't deal with this yourself. With the right negotiation, you may have a deal.

my agent says we won't go below the agreed price because the $$ the "appraisal" was at is unrealistic. They are using it as a bargaining tool, not to mention they were taking $$ out of their current house to use towards this house so it's not like the Final price would have as much bearing as if they were taking a much higher mortgage. Do I have that right?

Whoa...wait a minute.

You're getting way too emotional. This is a business transaction. I've not seen anything you've written to tell me these are "difficult" people or that they are "playing games".

Right now, they are just out negotiating you & your Realtor! They seem to be the ones coming from the position of strength & have you cowering & hollering, "No Fair..I don't want to play with you anymore!" Sure, you can just refuse to speak with them any further. Then, if your home doesn't sell soon...they'll likely come back & offer you something significantly less than they are now.

Negotiating is a skill. It's not for the timid or faint of heart. It's like a good game of poker. Treat it as such.

I'm a bit uncertain of where they are with their offer...are you still at $7K or are they reducing their initial offer down by $35K? The answer to that question would tell me how I'd handle the negotiating going forward with them. But, from what you've told us so far...I'd for sure not write them off. Really, by doing that...you're the one with the most to lose. They have lots of property to chose from. They found your place. They can find another they like also.

Hang in there...and consider a mental shift. They're not playing "games". Instead, think, "Hmmm, this is just starting to become FUN!" And, back burner your emotions 'cause if you don't...you lose in negotiating.

I'd love to hear who blinks next? Keep us posted.

Tricia

I don't care what state a person lives in or how it is/always has been/ done, get everything in writing. Your agent must respresent YOU, and not the buyer. Yes they are playing games, and the appraisal is done by the lender, not the buyers and if they are in the mortage field, what does that represent?? You get together with your agent, and make sure the appraiser in non-involved-not a friend/co-worker/ etc. Don't let these people wear you down. Keep it professional and fair to you and don't even talk to them--make your agent do the talking, and again--everything in writing, and give deadlines in writing. After all, they have not sold their house, and don't let them tie up your for a long period of time. Give them time limit, in writing, etc.

You shouldn't need to pay for an appraisal. I wouldn't discount or alienate these people. They are potential buyers for your house. Stick with your price and let your realtor negotiate with them.

I'd continue to simply ignore their talk about their supposed appraisal. If they keep harping on it, I'd certainly demand to SEE it in WRITING. They will probably have to pay for a written report, whereas an appraiser could just run some numbers and give them a "ballpark" figure without writing it up and providing details on the comps used.

Stay calm. They can rant but you don't have to respond.

I'm amazed that stuff like wanting TVs included is even under discussion before you have a written offer.

im2oc4u, they want your TV in the deal.

If they want a used a TV included in the mortgage, they probably won't be able to get a mortgage so pass.

Homeowners items are handled on the side like a garage sale.

Oh tricia, I wish this was as exciting for me as you... :]
they not only want my tv..cd player..basement fridge...$1,000 chandelier (which was stated in the beginning not included) and for us to pay tax grievance fees. My house was a cape when it was built in the 60's but now it is more of a colonial. can't even classify it as extended cape. I am not going to refuse to hear their offer but mine is firm and final. They had come up from their offer which would be $7K less than asking but as of last night they went down $34K from asking. I had an AVM done and at the price we agreed on they would already have equity in the house. I am not complaining about the things being included etc. but I don't think they have good enough info. to warrent a $34K decrease.

Im2oc4u I have my house up for sale and based on the comps my house is at the high end, everyone that comes through here absolutely loves it but a few have turned around and said it is overpriced. I find it amusing because the $$ amount difference between my house and the comps is less than $30,000 yet the comps would need more than $100K to be anywhere near the shape mine is in.

Since a few people have already said you're overpriced, and your current buyer is saying their appraisal came back low, you might want to consider if there is something to this. You also said that the comps are less than $30,000 difference. That is a HUGE DIFFERENCE when you're comparing apples to apples. I still believe an appraiser would have to come out, but then again, if you are that overpriced, it would be possible to do it with a drive by.

If the price is too high why did you come to look in the first place? Buyers only know its overpriced if they actually come and see your home. They then have something to compare it to. If they see other homes that offer what yours offer for much less money, they consider yours overpriced.

If you still have your doubts, ask to see the appraisal. It will have the comparable homes that were used against your house. If they are all similar in age,location, sq footage,and amenities, you're over priced.

Linda- what I meant by overpriced was it was out of their price range and then I went on to say why are you looking in a price range that is too high etc. But like I said I also had an appraisal (actual walk thru) done the end of last year and it was higher than what I was going to accept as an offer. There really are no true comps to go by in my area. I am even priced lower at this point then some houses that can't even touch mine. The comps they used were much smaller sq. footage wise were not updated like mine and on undesireable streets (busy, unless someone wants a busy street) age wise built around the same time. Mine also has a legal apt whereas a lot of others either don't have one or it isn't legal, does that help an appraisal or hurt it?

Are the electronics built-ins for a media room? If so, it's not unreasonable that they would ask for inclusion. If your TV is just parked on a TV stand...then their request is ridiculous, IMO. Sounds like they're using the chandalier as a bargaining "tool"? There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, our last buyers did exactly that to us! What they didn't know was that the wonderful antique fixture was something I'd picked-up at auction for $40 plus the auctioneer's fee! (He who laughs last....?)

Linda's given a very good commentary on the appraisal issue. Remember, comps are just a "tool" to sorta compare one thing to another. It's NOT an absolute statement of value. Only the market place will give you an absolute value. You've said your property is difficult to appraise. So, a discrepency should not automatically be disregarded.

Since this still mysterious appraisal seems to be the major sticking point at this time in the negotiations...I'd request a copy before countering. If they won't provide it...then, you'll need to decide if it's "possible" you've overestimated true market value? Since I don't know the market range you're in, I don't know what kind of a percentage $35K represents. Is it 10% off your thinking or is is 40% off? If this is a $500K home...then the $35K represents a 93% offer...not too bad, huh? Certainly, a good place to negotiate from. I apologize if I didn't see somewhere in this thread what the actual listing price is?

Tricia

trisha- the tv is a flat screen on the wall in my kitchen, like I said not a big deal, these people I think have disappeared haven't heard anything since monday. If I was interested I wouldn't waste time getting back to someone.

why would they put in an offer, have us go higher and then accept and then try to go back to a number much much lower than their initial offer.

This is a normal part of the process. You negotiate the offer, and have it accepted. When the bank sends out the appraiser it is to make sure the house is worth what the buyer is paying because in actuality, it is the bank that owns it. They are protecting their interests should the buyer default. If the bank says the house is not worth the money, they will not give the mortgage to the buyer. If you don't agree, you can wait for another buyer, but there is a possibility that the same thing will happen. I think the more logical question is, why isnt your agent on the phone with the appraiser going thru the comps trying to figure out how they both have such different values.

Linda- They did the appraisal themselves using comps that are not the same or near (sq. ft & amenities)to my house. A purchase agreement was not even done at this point. It's like they want the price lowered and contract done prior to a bank even getting involved.

I'm sorry...I thought you'd not seen the potential buyer's appraisal. Sounds like you have seen it...

Tricia

No, I haven't seen it but I can't since they went MIA.

Then how do you know what comps they used? Did I miss something? It would be illegal for an appraiser to low ball an appraisal for the benefit of a friend. Things just don't add up. Where is your agent in all of this? Just for the record, your agent might have their offer in writing. Not all areas in NY use a purchase offer. Some places use a memorandum of sale which requires no signature. How long ago did you agree on the sales price that was $7000 under your asking? This is a good way to see approximately what stage of this offer you are at.

I had my own appraiser come up with numbers for me and they saw what was used to get the "buyers" number, and then they did it using "real" comparables and came up with the correct number. My agent has nothing in writing. They were supposed to sign papers the day they came here with the appraisal issue and they did not. This all started on Sunday. My agent is doing whatever needs to be done on her end i guess, but I am trying to get answers for myself about how legit this is. And it doesn't seem to be. This is the 2nd time an offer came in and papers were to be signed and the people disappeared. It's amazing. Does that happen often? To me apparently, but to anyone else?

"I had my own appraiser come up with numbers for me and they saw what was used to get the "buyers" number, and then they did it using "real" comparables and came up with the correct number."

You asked above if you should have an appraisal done now? I don't understand the comment you just made about having your appraiser "come up with numbers"?

I'm lost but guess it doesn't matter since you've not heard from the folks in a couple days. Did they not show up because they somehow got the impression that you were unwilling to negotiate further?

Tricia

I called my mtg. guy and he had his appraiser do an AVM? AMV? I forget the letters. Which is the same thing these people had to have done. The appraiser used capes to come up with the first $$ and came up with the figure the "buyers" came to my agent with (on the lowest end, mind you) and my house is not a cape so it is not a good comparative. They just haven't called since they were here again Monday so, they don't even know what our response was after they told my agent about their appraisal. All the feedback has been useful and I know that if they want my house they will surface. Until then I can't think about them.