Standard. If the person who made up the layout has the best cabs and layout, then they get your business. If there is another place with similar prices and cabs, I would hope the tie breaker is the one who did the layout for you.
It may be different if you signed a contract or such, but basically, I felt like a free agent until I placed my cab order.
My first cab estimate was $35k. I then found several places (for the same cabinets) at $17k. We ended up with Ikea for approx $4k and the cabs had the same look (white slab fronts), just not custom sizes. I can't imagine not shopping around.

Let me get this straight. It is okay for me to take the existing layout plan that I received and take it to another KD so they use this same plan just to give me a ballpark figure? Does that make sense?

Thanks!

It depends on exactly what you have and what you're looking for. If you have an interior design, it's not really ethical (though often done) to take it to another designer to price out, unless you've paid the first designer for control of the design. That is, when you hire a designer, the rights to the design stay with the designer unless you pay for those rights to come to you. BUT, if this is from someone who is selling a cabinet line, rather than doing a full on interior design, the answer is less clear. You can always ask the designer who drew it!

If it's the kitchen layout that you're interested in, rather than the specifics of the exact cabinet that goes here and the one that goes there, you can draw up your own layout on graph paper that shows that you have the appliances here, 36" drawers here, 15" uppers there, etc. The designer's work product might belong to her/him, but the layout of your kitchen belongs to you, as does any drawing you make of it.

Did you pay the KD or is the KD more of a salesperson for the store? I never hired a KD but had a layout done by a kitchen place and then shopped that around. In the end, I did my own layout for Ikea sizes and then tweaked it to death. The basic shape was still similar, but not the details.

I had a KD come up with the floor plan. I guess I don't feel right in shopping the estimate since that person spent time to come to my house and draw up a plan. and I have to believe that it is part of a KD's job to come to someone's house and draw up a plan and give an estimate. But I guess this is all part of shopping around!

Thanks for your feedback. I just would hate to step on people's toes!

In your case I don't think it is ethical unless you paid them a rate to come up with the design. If you paid a design fee and they gave you the plan, it is ok to shop around.

If they did the plan and will only receive a payment if you order cabinets through his or her place of business you, then you should not because you received a service without paying for it. If you have not paid anything for it, it is the intellectual property of the designer.

If you have already paid, just ask the designer what rights you have purchased. Or did you already sign something that discusses this?

Braque17,

I am really glad you asked this questions. It brings
light to the fact that the KD did work for you. And
more people need to be aware of the big picture.

Florantha said it perfectly above, I just wanted to say
thank you for asking the questions. More people should be
aware of this ethical or standard....dilema.
KDs, Architects, cabinet makers, designers... all need
to be recognized (compensated) and valued for their
creativity.

~boxerpups

I am so glad I asked this question! Thank you all!

There's a final note.

You need to shop apples to apples.
If you take the KD design & end up learning you can't afford every bell & whistle, and the last KD gives you a price of the stripped design? You're not being fair.

You need to ask each designer the same questions, ask for the same quality, the same delivery time, etc.

If you strip down (or beef up) your design, it would be polite to take the original design back to your original KD and tell them you've been shopping & you have a more realistic idea of what you can afford. Could the KD pls rewrite the quote?

Plus, that KD has actually seen your space. From the drawing things can often be very, very different than reality.

My husband was a GC & this happened all the time. He quit handing over plan copies without a $500 deposit because they cost him that and more $$. Let alone the time he agonized over getting someone's "dream" onto plans. Remember, we all dream big, and often bigger than our actual budget.

Christine

In my case, I was only using local cabinet makers. Three did not have their own KD on site. One did and I did use her plans to assist in my discussions. However, my husband did all our measurements and I came up with the overall layout and the cabinet, drawer styles. She just entered that in a computer program and printed it out. I could have done it myself, but my cabs are custom sizes, which often don't work on the programs out there.

Taking plans from one KD to another is not generally a problem but if you feel guilty then just have each KD come up with a design. Personally, when I'm shopping around for someone to do a job I like to let them tell me their ideas in case they have one I haven't thought of or someone else has thought of. Many times I'll incorporate ideas from multiple people into the final design. It's not generally the design that sells me on the company/team it's the quality, recommendations and options available. And of course I have to be able to talk to the people and not feel like they won't listen.

The problems will occur if you pick a KD and don't have them do their own final design. And NEVER let your personal measurements be the final measurements. If something is wrong you are to blame and will be stuck with it. Same goes for measurements done by 1 KD used by a different KD, you are to blame if something's off.

hi...

this subject came up recently. please read kompy's story.

she's a KD and gardenweb contributor for a decade! really!

i hope you will consider this.

Here is a link that might be useful: When will I ever learn? KD Story.

"She just entered that in a computer program and printed it out. I could have done it myself, but my cabs are custom sizes, which often don't work on the programs out there."

That has value doesn't it? So, you expect to compensate her for that service , yes? I mean, you didn't do the work yourself - why??? Or, are you one of the classic politicians that just uses everyone they can for their own gain under the auspices of "helping" society by donating your YOUR talent and "serving"?

"Taking plans from one KD to another is not generally a problem"

For whom? If those plans are copyrighted - you are breaking the law by shopping them around!

This is a response to some of the responses, not the original question.

Put in a different profession.

I went to a lawyer and had him draw me up a will. I told him what I wanted in it so he didn't really do anything except write it down. I thought maybe another lawyer could do it cheaper so I took a copy of the first will and the second lawyer changed a few words that expressed my wishes more clearly, and since it took him a lot less time, he said he would charge me less. I don't have to pay the first lawyer anything do I?

Touche, Palimpsest.

I'm always one to be wary of contractors and KD who i think breezily (over)spend other people's money. But I do also think fair is fair and people should be compensated for their time. Generally, if you are unsure that something is ethical, it's probably not.

Additional question: if I've paid the designer to come up with the plan (by the hour for the time it took to develop the plan) and they agreed that either they can do the job or I can have someone else do it, can I then take the plan around to other KD places for estimates/ideas?

I would say it depends on the original agreement; I was shocked when one designer told me that she will design the layout and I am welcome to shop around for pricing. I had not pursued this option yet, but I even asked her whether I understood it correctly and she said absolutely... I suppose you need to ask the designer whether this would be OK.

The idea that if you question the ethical issues means that in your deepest heart you know it is unethical is the right answer.

I do not design kitchens; I teach English. And in the process of doing so, I develop curriculum. A couple of years ago, I discovered that there is another English teacher who used material I designed (and discussed at a meeting) in curriculum she is selling. I'm not particularly upset, but it is unethical. Think the same way of your KD's plans. Her intellectual/creative property should certainly be compensated. If you need to get multiple quotes from others, let them create their own plans for you.

I have to disagree somewhat with some of the responses here.
I work 100% on commission as a real estate agent. We are often called in to audition to get a listing and give a "free" market evaluation. I can spend a good deal of time researching and preparing comparables and then spend time sitting with the homeowner explaining how listing a home, marketing, and the rest of the process in selling their home works. It is clearly understood that they can choose whichever agent they want, but that I am hoping they hire me. Often, the homeowner has several people in before listing with one. I can't make them unhear what I have told them and they can use our discussion to become wiser and never pay me a dime. It is the nature of a salesperson's job.
If someone is a salesperson at a store, then they know that a certain percentage will go with them from what they drew and they will lose some others. OTOH, they will sell cabs to people who have gotten an estimate elsewhere first. Hopefully, if someone is good at what they do, their batting average will be better and they will therefore profit more in the long run (with many referrals). This way, chances are the person who is best for the purchaser is the one hired rather than just who got to them first. I shopped around a layout from a kitchen showroom to others and each other place gave me input and had a chance at a sale. I had had 3 at almost the same price and was choosing based on who I trusted to be the most knowledgeable. Thanks to GW around that time, I was encouraged to check out Ikea from hearing other people's good results and ended up going that route.
I would think it were unethical to go into a place with no intention of buying their products in order to get a layout made. As long as you go in with the intention to buy from someone and give everyone a fair shot at your business that is fair. I have been called in on a listing and discussed the market with homeowners, who then list with the sister or cousin (who they never mentioned before) and find they had basically used me to see what the consensus was for their house with absolutely no intention of giving me a chance at their business. That is unethical in my book.

It is a different story with a true KD who is hired for their design alone and is not selling anything other than the design. That would be stealing.

On the other hand Dianolo, if you are the listing agent for a house, or you are the real estate agent who shows someone a listing and the house that they buy, don't you get part of the commission--regardless of whether you found it for them or not?

I have looked at about fifty houses this past year, some with my agent, and some on open houses. Two or three of them have come from the agent through MLS based upon my criteria. The other 48 I found by looking on the internet, called her and told her I wanted to see them or went on my own to open houses. Yet, I would never tell her: "I found this house on my own, I don't owe you any commission."

Pal - if I am doing my job and have instilled confidence in buyers that I am working with, they will call me if they see something we haven't already discussed. An agent's job is beyond just supplying an address as much work is done after a buyer falls in love with a house. Also, the commission in our area is usually paid by the seller, so an agent will be getting paid when you buy. It is just a question of which agent. I have some buyers who will stop in to open houses and give my name. Usually, the listing agent will respect that and if the buyers want to see it again and/or make an offer, will let them work with me as their selling agent, just as I respect loyalty from buyers who come to my open houses and give me the name of an agent they have been working with. Sometimes, I am doing an open house at the same time another house is, so since I can't be in 2 places at the same time, I speak to the l.a. of the other one and we work it out. Most agents in our area give each other professional courtesy.

If you are asking as to why a listing agent gets paid when they did not show the house to the buyer, it is not the listing agent's job to show the house, but it is their job to market it, to represent the seller when negotiating and to make sure all goes smoothly. The listing agents are often also the selling agent at the same time, but that is a separate job and the commission is then doubled since they are doing twice as much work.
My feeling is if someone is a real KD, then to take their layout around is wrong, even if you copy it first to graph paper. That is not to say you can't give the dimension of the space to someone new and to generally say what you want where, but it would not be fair to just blatantly copy their work. You would also want to hear other ideas about what to do with the same space if you are shopping around. You may end up liking someone else's layout better, so strictly copying a layout could be shortsighted anyway.

If they are a salesperson, therefore not a true KD, then not making every sale is part of the business and is expected. It stinks when I put in time on something I won't get paid on, but I do get paid well on the ones that do go through, so hopefully, it all works out in the end.

We need to know the nature of the "KD's" job and credentials in this instance to know what is fair or not.

I am not asking why a real estate agent gets paid whether they are the listing agent or the buyer's agent. I understand that. The real estate agents I know work very hard seven days a week, and I believe its a job you have to love or you will be very unhappy. In my area you also sign a contract with an agent when you start looking in earnest, so even if you find a house through an open house independently you are working with that agent.

A real designer's job is also to make sure that things go smoothly during the project, so a kitchen designer's job should not be done with the design either--that is the beginning of the process, although if you go to a big box store and have a design done where the cabinets and components are plugged in to the computer at that visit once and done, that particular person's job may be done at that point whether you order the cabinets from them or not. In contrast my partner is doing a renovation project (actually everything but the kitchen at this point), and has been to the project every single day someone is onsite working on the project, even though they are contractors employed by the homeowner.

Whether or not you work with a particular designer should almost be decided prior to the design of your particular kitchen based upon their portfolio, work of theirs you have seen, their reputation, and an interview or consult. This corresponds with your initial consult with a potential buyer. The plan really corresponds (or should correspond) with the potential sellers agreeing to work with you. Wouldn't you have some recourse if they dumped your for their cousin after you had started the process?

The availability of kitchen design software, as well as the internet MLS listings which allow you to see interior pictures, the neighborhood and calculate monthly expenses, really muddy the waters for a lot of people who think they know the whole process involved since its right on the computer, so what do they really need a kitchen designer or a real estate agent for?

This happens with everything now. In my day job I am a health care provider who works in a specialty. I have actually had patients who have come for consults, been given a diagnosis and have been told they do not need treatment or they need a different type of treatment that I do not provide who have balked that they have to pay what insurance doesn't cover because "I didn't really *do* anything but examine them and talk to them" (for a half hour or an hour).
People don't understand certain types of work or intellectual property. To some people time, an opinion, or a skill is worth nothing.

KDs decided to make themselves into commissioned salespeople--not consumers. Lawyers don't work that way. Architects don't work that way. Art directors don't work that way. With those professions, you pay either an hourly rate, or a per-job cost. Not so with KDs. Most work for showrooms. Around here, you can't really find any KDs who aren't frontmen for cabinet companies even if they call themselves independent.

So what KDs are complaining about is what's called the "free rider" problem in economics. You go into a mattress store to try everything out first, then you actually buy online when you find a better deal. While some folks may harrumph at being compared to mattress stores, the reality is, it is very expensive for a brick-and-mortar company to rent space, procure lots of sample mattresses, hire lots of salespeople, etc. Yet they all know that many people just use them as tire-kicking grounds so they can make their choices and then buy elsewhere.

It's just part of the cost of doing business.

OH, you say, but copyright!! As plllog said, you can't copyright an idea. I think some KDs fantasize that no one is allowed to move their refrigerator across the room if they came up with the idea first. 90% of most kitchen design projects consist of dragging and dropping cabinets in a software package--only a minority of KDs really contribute ideas one could even claim as original.

The copyright claim comes in when you get to drawings reduced to paper or electronic file. At that point, I don't understand why anybody cares. Each showroom has to recreate the plan in their own software anyway to generate a list and a quote.

What purpose is served by the charade of having a homeowner bring in a pencil drawing on a napkin instead of a printed plan? And if it's so shockingly unethical to bid against somebody else's plan, why do all cabinet showrooms happily do it? It's the consumer's job to enforce the rule?

While I would agree that taking someone's information off plans for the purpose of shopping around is shady, I think that what marcolo is saying is correct. In my case, I was actually sitting with the KD as she typed in the custom sizes into her program. Does that have value? Sure! The value comes from the fact that she may have sold me $22,000 worth of cabinetry from her store.

She sent me all the full sized plans with elevation drawings and measurements via e-mail with no company imprint or agreement not to "shop around". She did not add anything orignial that I did not specify myself into the plans.

I am a faculty member who is all for copyright and intellectual property, but I think that most KD's (NOT ALL) are more sales people, than designers.

Interesting thread. What some people are describing as "kitchen designers" sound like less work then what either of my KDs have done. Neither of my KDs were affiliated with a cabinet maker. Excuse the naievete, but can anyone call themselves a KD?

I think many KD's do fall in the category that you are not familiar with mtnrdredux. In higher end homes, or when individuals seek out assistance from an indepedent KD (usually only available in more urban areas), they get much more of an actual "design". My mother-in-law worked with an independent KD for her kitchen, and it was more like that in her experience. She came to her home several times thoughout the process, brought samples of materials, design drawings, etc. However, in my case, my KD did not do any of that (but she had the same title). I actually didn't want design ideas from a KD, since I had a pretty specific idea of what I wanted. However, some people might be dissapointed to not have that relationship.

There are some certified kitchen designers who work more like an interior designer would - fees discussed up front, they would come to your house, give you all sorts of ideas, etc. & you would pay them for their drawings & all. If you did get your cabs. from them, the fee would be incorporated into that.
Then there are those whose main function is to "sell cabinets" as opposed to "design kitchens." Some don't come out to the house until you are ready to have exact measurements taken and cabinets ordered (prior to that they would be working with general room dimensions provided by you).
There would be a range of folks operating somewhere in between those scenarios, where I would say just ask - clears up expectations on both sides.

The KD we are working with has a 2 part business. She'll do design work by the hour or design work with a cabinet purchase. You don't have to pick up front, but if you want her drawings to shop around, she requires a deposit.

That seems fair to both sides. She's doing design work for us and will get paid either directly from us or via commission.

However, she is doing a lot more work than some of the KD's described above. We met her at her office twice and she came to our home to get a better feeling for the flow to other rooms and to see the style of the rest of the home. We'll have at least one more meeting before we order cabinets. Her design definitely is more than just dropping cabinets in place. On her visit to our house, she saw that we had 2 north facing windows that really weren't providing much light and faced a neighbors house. She pointed out we could close those in, expand the window facing the back yard, and gain another wall of uppers while brightening the space. I'm more than happy to pay for that type of design advice independent of any cabinet purchases.

It sounds like billl's KD is a true KD whereas many others are just cabinet salespeople. I am not sure if there are legal guidelines to calling oneself a KD, but there should be different titles to make things crystal clear. It used to be that anyone could call themself a home inspector and there were no standards. Hang a shingle and print some cards, and that was all it took. Now, they have to be licensed engineers with mandatory education and it has improved the field immensely. There used to be a majority that were legitimate and this weeded out those others who were pretenders.

I would think if there were a copyright or other barrier to shopping around the layout, the KD would have spelled that out. By not doing so, and making the relationship clear (we have disclosure laws in our field), that leaves it up to you how you proceed. If someone is the first person I met with, they had better knock my socks off if they expect me not to shop around. In fact, if I shop around, it may help reinforce that they were the special one.
In fact, if you have a well thought out layout you are leaning towards, but do not spell that out for subsequent "KDs" to price out, then you are causing more people to spend more time on your plan and only 1 will be getting paid. That would be even more unethical than to allow them to see the original layout as a guideline.
You don't have to buy a car from everyone who gives you a test drive, nor should you have to be stuck with the first person you meet with about your kitchen. If you sign a contract or agreement, then you have to abide by that. It is the nature of working on commission that you do not make every sale, no matter how much time you put in. Some people take up a lot of my time and I end up making nothing, and others take up little and I get paid well. It should balance out favorably if you are making good use of your experience and time.

Right now Interior Designers are pushing for licensing or accreditation on the state level so there is an acknowledgement of their degree as opposed to a decorator or designer who does not have accredited training.

According to the official stance they do not want to drive decorators or contractors who do design build out of business. They are doing this because in some states, despite their training, if an interior designer moves a doorway or window, they need to get an architect to stamp the drawings.

One of the biggest and most vocal opponent of interior design licensing by state is apparently the legal counsel for the NKBA who has convinced both his association and contractors lobbies that interior designers want to drive kitchen designers or contractors without interior design degrees out of business.

Diana...just to pose a different question.....if I work with a realtor who shows me several homes over a long period of time, then meet Sally the agent at a cocktail party who has a listing which is going to be the house for me.....do I take my agent or do I leave her our, making a deal with reduced commissions with Sally? In our state no contract is necessary for buyers working with agents so it's perfectly acceptable, even done by many...but is that ethical?

Just because its done and not against the law...does not mean it's ethical. I wouldn't do that to an agent who had worked for me like that...I wouldn't feel ethical (and I have zero need of an agent to negotiate or handke closing fir me) but I do want their professional connections so I expect to pay for that one way or another.

OP ask the kd who drew the plans up if it's ethical. If you hesitate to do that you know the answer don't you?

Palimpsest, that's another whole kettle of fish! There are real problems with legislating language that have unfortunate consequences. If it were really about having their plans accepted they could invent a new word, such as PAP (Plancheck Appropriate Purveyor), that would be a licensure that would be applied to ID's, architects and engineers who have sufficient schooling, and likely a competence test, to have their drawings accepted by planning departments.

I think what is being said is a bit dishonest. While the plans thing is a real concern, it is addressable without legislating language. Another, more venal, concern is that in many places, Trixie Sue the Trophy Wife with too little to do can set herself up as a decorator and call herself an interior designer with no training at all. This is made worse within the industry as anyone who has a business that is buying the goods can get credentials as an "interior designer" within the trade (including the builder who is just decorating a model home). It can bother the heck out of those who've had the schooling, and likely even more those who are ASID, IIDA, ICD, etc. Also, that someone who has taken a course from a cabinet company can call herself a "certified" kitchen designer, with the company being the certifier. That's got to be even worse!

The problem is, people at large don't care. The National Association of Realtors has been trying to get the word out that "realtor" only applies to their members, which they have been able to adjudicate, I think, but no one cares. They use "realtor" to mean real estate agent, Xerox to mean copier, and, in England, Hoover as a verb for "to vacuum". Although I do some design work on a consulting basis, I am very careful not to call myself a "designer", let alone "interior designer" because I have a great deal of respect for the training and skills that the real ones have, but it doesn't really make a difference to the people I'm working for. I carefully define the scope of my expertise, which does not include the technical stuff (there will be someone else for that), but it makes Joe Helpme's eyes glaze over. It's results that count.

If you meet someone at a cocktail party, you'd most likely say, "I'm dealing with so-and-so, do you know her?"

If that person had professional scruples, they'd already know for you that there's a split required. Not everyone is an opportunist & looking to screw someone else out of their living.

I agree a gudzillion percent with the repeated statement here: If you have to ask, you know the answer. There are the right ways to go about this, and there are wrong ways.

I'd say your gut is speaking to you, so listen and do what feels the right thing to do.

Plllog, have you noticed that the magic buzz word these days is "certified?" There are certified toilet paper distributors because they took a class and got a certificate of training completion.

We run into that a LOT in the yoga world. People take a class, they get a certificate & they get $4.00 more dollars a class at the gym. Whereas people such as I have over 1000 (yes, 1000) hours of training & have EARNED certification. Licensing for anyone is an indication of a certain level of training.

"Certified" has a tendency to mean squat these days. Someone such as you who respects & honors others' training & profession is a rarity. I'm glad to know 'ya.

C.

OP ask the kd who drew the plans up if it's ethical. If you hesitate to do that you know the answer don't you?

Whether she hesitates is irrelevant. No one likes to ask a salesperson if it's OK to go to another store. The salesperson will always say no. Or that the other salesperson has beri-beri. Or that the other showroom has Legionnaire's disease in the AC. Or it's on a major fault line and ready to go any minute. Or that he just saw the news and a meteor is set to strike the earth precisely at the other showroom's reception counter. Whatever it takes to stop the customer from shopping around, a salesperson will say. Consumers are under no obligation to subject themselves to it.

Basically any argument that ends with a customer having to choose between A) never comparison shopping apples to apples or B) paying tens of thousands of dollars to install, and then living with, a kitchen layout they don't like just because some other KD thought of it first is an absurd argument. Which, thankfully, no one buys, because everybody shops around.

I don't believe the issue is shopping around; the issue is using the plan created by someone else to shop around.

Of course, a smart consumer is going to comparison shop; to not make multiple comparisons would mean making decisions without having sufficient information. However, in the process of shopping around, I think that taking a designer's plan to someone else and saying, "I like it just like this; can you give me a better price?" is unethical. Going to another designer and saying my kitchen is x by y, what can you do for me is altogether different.

Just because ethical behavior (doing the right thing) is not codified law does not mean it's not what we should do.

Igloo - if someone is working with me to find a house, without a contract, then when they run into Sally at a cocktail party, more often than not, they tell Sally they are working with me and ask me to get them into her listing or tell her to call me to make arrangements. BTW - if Sally promises to cut commission to steal them away, then she is unethical and most buyers will smell that. If they tell Sally they have been looking with me but that I am slow to get back to them, have not listened to their needs, etc... then they are fair game. If they are slimey enough to try to cut me out just to save a buck or 2 after I have worked hard and well for them, then shame on me for spending time with them without figuring out their lack of gratitude for my efforts.
However, no buyer should be stuck looking for houses just because someone took them out first (unless they sign a contract). Hopefully, they are loyal because they have worked with me and I have shown them reason to be loyal through my expertise. If I am the agent at the party example, I listen to how people describe the agent they have been looking with. Usually, they are clear they like their agent or start to complain. I never push, but if they complain openly, then I put it out there that if they ever decide to change who they are looking with, I'd be glad to discuss it with them.

In our area, the buyer does not determine whether they need an agent to negotiate for them nor shepard the deal towards closing. When the seller hires a realtor and lists their home, it is that action that determines that agents will be involved. BTW - most people that think they should negotiate for themselves are the ones who shouldn't. Years of experience has proven that one to me many times.

Marcolo - right on.

Just because someone throws around the word "unethical" doesn't mean something is unethical. It may be instead that someone just doesn't understand the economics of the business.

There is no way to compare cabinet prices without comparing apples to apples. Period.

The same showroom that whines when its plan is shopped around to other showrooms will not hesitate to price out another showroom's plans. Everybody does it, and everybody knows it. It is part of the cost of doing business.

I never worked with a regular showroom that gave you plans to shop around with, only the big box stores do that around me.And actually most kitchens I've seen where the owner went to HD or Lowes, they walked out with 95% the layout they went in with, just tricked out with new cabinets.

But actually I only went in without a plan once. I go in with a design and they make sure the correct components are ordered. However, it is the general policy of this type of business in my locale to only release a plan once a deposit has been paid. So I can't really compare my experience with someone going in seeking a design.

Actually though, there is very little new under the sun and if you walk into most sales oriented cabinet places the design is not going to be highly innovative or anything. There is only so much people's budgets or space will generally allow. I don't think if you walked into three kitchen design places with the same parameters you would come out with three widely divergent plans but three rather similar plans, especially when broken down into their components. You might end up comparing MacIntosh to Granny Smith, but not apples to oranges.

Some of the responsibility for KD work being misused falls on the KD him/herself, IMO. I wonder how many times a KD who complains about having their own designs shopped will take a design carried in by someone and give a quote without going to the site and doing a "from scratch" design themselves?

If they're concerned about having their property misused they could take more pains to protect themselves-- that is they should not give a rendition that has useful measurements or cabinet part/numbers on it until they've received a deposit. That's what our KD did and we had no problem with it -- he drove 40 miles each way to come and measure our kitchen and spent a ton of hours on expensive software building the design -- he has every right to protect himself and his company.

This is sort of an 80/20 situation. Probably eighty percent, maybe more, of all kitchen reno projects are slapping up new cabs and counters in an existing layout, perhaps with a few tweaks here and there. There is no innovation or design to speak of. The HO goes to a big box store or showroom, walks out with a plan, and either shops it around or just goes with what they have. In this situation, shopping around is the norm.

Reinventing the layout, maybe moving walls and windows, adding on--these are probably a minority of kitchen projects, even though they seem to represent a higher proportion here on the KF. An even smaller number are truly designed in every detail, where the backsplash tile layout and window treatments and perhaps the grain orientation on the cabinetry is spec'd by a professional.

These are the projects where it's up to the KDs to protect themselves. I can't see anybody handing out a true master plan design for a major reno without taking a deposit.

It's interesting to bring up the contrast between interior designers and KDs. Most independent interior designers also work on commission in part, since they take markup on the to-the-trade items they provide. But many charge separately for floorplans, or shopping time, or whatever else eats up their hours. The big difference is that interior designers may take commissions but they can buy fabrics from Kravet or Duralee or Brunschwig or Robert Allen or anybody else--they don't "work with" particular fabric lines. The idea is absurd. The fact that they can access most to-the-trade goods without bias or hidden agenda to push a particular product is part of what saves them from being sales people.

BTW I think the idea of licensing interior designers is a pure scam to control competition. No house ever fell down because it was badly decorated. As far as designers acting like junior architects, all that is necessary is to require specific courses and training to be able to stamp plans. A degree is not required, since building code and color theory have nothing to do with each other.

The area of scrutiny is not residential decorating projects and interior decorators (who may have no degree or a different degree); kitchen designers (same); or contractors would be exempt or grandfathered.

Saying that an interior designer is "acting like a jr. architect" (with its underlying meaning that they aspire above their station) points out a basic misunderstanding of the difference between a decorator and an interior designer who has a degree from an accredited interior design program. Accredited programs do have specific courses about systems, lighting, construction, and space planning, albiet at a lower level than architecture programs. Some of the more theoretical, less structural/mathematical architecture program tracks are quite similar to interior design programs.

When it comes to being able to stamp drawings, an architect can't get their stamp without years of experience and exams and I know a number of architects who can't stamp, and are not interested in getting their stamp.

The corresponding exam for interior designers, the NCIDQ exam is a difficult exam with a relatively low pass rate that is heavily planning and systems oriented.

The issue that has come up that has really made interior designers, especially those who work in commercial design want licensing legislation is terminology like this and a paraphrase but the meaning is here:
--if an interior designer changes a means of egress and does so without the stamp of an architect, they are practicing outside the scope of their practice and without a license.--

This means if you move a doorway, any doorway.

There is a basic ignorance of the difference between what a decorator who has no training, and an interior designer with a degree are capable of doing, and a part of the fault of this lies within the industry itself. Add on top of this the fact that many degreed and NCIDQ certified interior designers do a lot of residential interior decorating as their main practice further muddies the water.

To say that redefining and licensing the interior designer simply to drive decorators out of business is the kind of paranoia that is spread by the opponents that is picked up by the public who don't really understand what the difference between the two is. And, as I said part of the fault of this lies within the industry itself.

I wrote the above as bits and pieces over a period of more than an hour and it's full of grammatical and spelling errors. Sorry.

@marcolo I disagree on the interior design bit. Most have completed rigorous undergraduate, and even graduate, work in color theory, fabric construction, design history, etc. And yes, it may be about competition, it's also about reputation and respect. Some people watch a sh*t-ton of HGTV and call themselves "designers".

Reputation and respect are of no interest to the government or the taxpayer. If money is going to be taken out of my paycheck and diverted to serve the personal interests of others, I'd like to know why. Crazy, I know.

Licensing is highly appropriate when it protects the public generally. That's why we have codes. That's why you need specialized training and experience to say a wall can be ripped down, a step is OK here, this is the way we will wire a house, here's how you write a will, or you need to start taking antibiotics. Licensing is not at all appropriate simply to help people feel respected.

Which is what I meant by "junior architect." Designing a space can involve everything from structural elements down to finishes and fabrics. Anything where the public needs protection is a possible candidate for licensing, such as moving an egress in a public place that could cause a Coconut Grove catastrophe if done incorrectly. However, only a certain subset of the coursework and experience of an interior designer focuses on such issues. Color theory, fabric construction, and design history are all nice but pose no danger to anyone. No one was ever killed by a garish color scheme or a restaurant banquette that wore poorly because it was foolishly upholstered with a 5,000 double rub fabric. So the idea that the taxpayer should pay for protecting such expertise is ludicrous.

Only the subset of interior design training that affects safety could possibly considered to be worth protecting with a license. So you could conceivably argue for a legal license that allows people to move doors and such, which would be available to a wide variety of trades and professions that might have a use for it. If interior designers were truly motivated by that issue, they would support such a solution. They don't. What they want is a legalized protection racket for their own profession, and no others.

Oh yes, I agree that licensing is unnecessary. Certification by their own governing body is perfectly warranted. I wasn't advocating for licensure, just trying to stick up for the creative professions. Just because we have liberal arts degrees doesn't mean we didn't study as hard as other people - we just studied different things.

But, back to the OP....
I tried to scroll back through your earlier replies, and hope I didn't miss any of this info.
Did you pay a fee to have the design done? What kind of plans did you actually receive? Is there any disclaimer on the plans you received? If you have already shopped your plans to other cabinet places, were they wary about using an existing design?

hi badgergrrl,

I just saw your response. No, my design was free of charge and no disclaimer at all but it is a preliminary plan. I don't plan on finalizing it unless I am going to use that KD. I have not shopped around using this existing design which is why I asked on this forum whether it was ethical to do so. Anyway, ultimately if I plan on pricing out more cabinets, I will ask the new KD to come out to take a measurement. Plus I thought it would be interesting to see if they would come up with some new ideas for a layout.

As a banker I had clients routinely shop around using my financing program, taylored for them...and they often asked or told me they were going to do so. I always replied, "good for you, and suggested they return when they saw that I was able to provide them with the best options, and if not, that I would assist them in any way possible to make it work elsewhere" and I meant that and followed through more than once....which always garnered me the client in the end because I was a very good banker. I didn't always have the best deal but they still came back quite often, but sometimes I just couldn't beat out the competition and I helped them go with ease so that I'd get an option at their business in the future. Any good salesperson knows that.

Had I been a licensed financial planner I wouldn't have shared their plan until they paid for the service, much like a KD or designer won't share until the services are paid for.

I also had a KD ask me point blank if I was shopping with another designers plan twice (two different KD's). My plan was professionally drawn so they thought maybe I was using someone elses work and both said they did not work off of someone elses work ever without a disclaimer or a call to get permission (ie if I'd paid for the plan). I had to show both of them that I'd purchased Cheif Architecht and drawn my own before they would give me a bid on the project. I went with one of them...I liked that professionalism. The ones who didn't ask tended to be lower quality designers...I learned that game quickly.

Dianna I didn't ask what you clients would do...I said what if they did? I wouldn't do that to a realtor, in fact I had to have my arm twisted to not provide a fee to my realtor when we closed (self sourced home purchase without a realtor). I was not able to bring my realtor because the owner didn't want anyone to know she was thinking of selling (for business reasons) so when the deal was done I then told my agent I had done it and offered to build a fee in for her, which she refused, despite my pushing. She's a very professional woman and will get our business on another deal because of it, but still...i was under no obligation to worry about her...yet it didn't feel "right" so I asked her if it was. I had a similar deal happen when we sold our home...the agent was not ethical (new, rather stupid actually) and he did try to swing a deal on the fees with me. We asked he not return to the bargaining table and they found another agent to use in the purchase.

Now as to those who don't need an agent to negotiate...there are those people out there...and they do know who they are. I am highly experienced in real estate lending as well as the procedures involved in the process on both sides. We own several businesses and negotiate in our sleep, plus I was a very experienced banker. I know how to work people, so no, I don't allow an agent to bargain for me as I'm quite confident to do so on my own as is my husband, though beyond price he looks to me because of my understanding of the processes involved. My boss also never allowed an agent to negotiate for him...same reason...he was a better negotiator than most agents and was confident in his ability to do so. I worked with some great agents who also understood why I wanted to do the negotiating and were professional enough to not disparage that. We all come from different walks in life...assuming that someone who says they can negotiate can't...it's kind of silly really. If I'd have said I was a housewife who could negotiate because I'd gotten my son's B raised to an A- than feel free to say "you probably shouldn't negotiate cuz this is a different deal" but really...shouldn't you at least know where they come from before jumping to conclusions.