First of all, you are not allowed to put a panel in a closet. You will fail your inspection on this.
Otherwise, if the main operates side-to-side, you can put the panel in "upside down"; if it operates up-and-down, then no you can't.

"First of all, you are not allowed to put a panel in a closet. You will fail your inspection on this. "

Why is there this rule? I'm not pulling a permit on my job but I put mine in a closet next to all the cable / phone lines, a big plumbing pipe and the alarm panel... it's a perfect little electrical/LV closet out of sight.

Your cable closet may be enough to fail a home inspection. Maybe if you have so many wiring devices in there, they won't beable to classify it as a clothes closet and it could pass that way but not sure. You also have to have 36" of working room all around the panel. The Nec does not want a panel in a room full of flamable goods "clothes". I've seen many contractors argue this one, dont want the panel out in the open but it pretty much has to be. I think the low voltage is ok though.

I think it would be Article 240-24(d) which says you can't put it in a clothes closet.

Mine is a utility closet that has 36" of clear access and 30" wide.

Not clear what defines a clothes closet? Is this the applicable section? What about utility closets?

I once posed the question of the dividing line between "Electrical Room" and "clothes closet" to a forum with a lot of AHJs. There are basically two camps of answers:

1. It's whatever the plans say it is.

2. "We never allow an 'Electical Room' in a residence because we know it's going to be used for storage."

(This of course with the common-sense proviso that an "Electrical Room" doesn't have shelves and a bar to hang clothing on.)

It's pretty much the call of your local AHJ.

Normel-
Am I to assume that the reason that the panel cannot be flipped if the main operates vertically is that the on position would be at bottom and you could drop something on it and turn it on while working? Is this the idea here?

Since the OP isn't building or remodeling, this probably isn't something he could do. But my plan is to put my panels in a closet of the following design. The closet will be a very shallow closet with doors that have louvered ventilation holes. From the outside it will look like an ordinary closet. Open the doors and the panels will be right there, just inches between the panel itself and the backside of the door when it is closed. It is impossible for someone to be "in" the closet, so I believe the space requirement would apply in the context of the doors being open. The doors would be wide enough so that the hinged part of the door won't impinge in the required space. The doors will be made to be openable 180 degrees using the offset hinges. It will likely be in a hallway, with means of egress in 2 directions. The opposing wall of the hallway will be far enough back (width of hallway) to not impinge on the space. To fully prevent use for storage, the panel would be mounted flush on pressboard that can be unscrewed for maintenance and pulling new circuits.

Oh, and my panels will not go in the basement at all. The only issue I have with the house design I'm working on is how to OCP the point of entrance and that may have to be an outside main under lock and key. The FD may prefer that, anyway (those guys don't have much trouble with an ordinary padlock).

skapare,

Just make sure your house does not get inspected by an Assistant West Virginia Fire Marshall because your proposed installation would be turned down. Even though I, and every other inspector I've queried, feel this would be in compliance.

tom_o:

Why? What is their beef with it? The lock on the outside panel (I've seen fire guys go through that in 1/2 second) or the installation inside? If there's a mod to make them happy with it, what might that be? Or do they want it to be in a closet (there isn't a real place to put it otherwise).

If they're doing it for spite, I might enjoy the court battle.

Wittyhoosier,

In the old days (even before my time) knife switches were common in fuse and switch panels and in larger versions for industrial equipment and switchboards. You never wanted a knife switch to fall down (closed) and energize a circuit. Consequently to energize a circuit you threw the switch up.

Hence the convention - up is energized, down is de-energized. The convention stands today and is a code requirement in article 404.7.

It's acceptable to have breakers go sideways. Then either way can be on or off (though I assume they have to be marked appropriately). Consumer grade panels these days tend to have mains that flip sideways. Commercial panels can run the feed through the main breaker in either direction, so they can stay in compliant vertical orientation.

Interesting conversation. This is definitely not a clothes closet... in fact it's unfinished on the inside -- looks finished from the outside but you open it and it's just all the stuff I mentioned in there.

I do not have 36" clearance though, kind of go into it at an angle and the drywall goes right up to the side of it. Oh well.

Skapare,

An engineer buddy of mine typically had panelboards installed in schools in a manner similar to what you described. He did OK for several projects, then one Fire Marshal said that he needeed a 36" deep working space, buddy said "I do with the doors open". FM "but not with the doors closed." Engineer " theres no room for anyone to work on the panel with the doors closed." FM "You need 36" of working space." Violation notice issued, end of conversation.

Appeals process would then go to the State Fire Commission. Past experience has shown that you should not muddy the arguement with such mundane things as facts, expert opinions, etc.

This shows the potential value of plan review and consulting with the AHJ even for something you might feel is fairly simple.

tom_o:

I've been through that conversation many times. The consensus among thinking people is that the doors are effectively just a façade in front of the panel in the same room as you are standing in when in front of the door. "The room" will have the space, and nothing will even intrude into the space.

So what would this fire marshal expect? A separate electrical room? So he wants a deeper closet that would temp someone to store stuff in?

We spend considerable time moving customer's panels out of closets, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. By and large, Dallas code folks do not want panels in closets or living areas. Most often we put the panel outside directly under the meter and service entrance. Where space and service entrance allows we have put panels inside of garages.

So how big does the room have to be for the code folks in Dallas to consider it not a closet and allow the panel there (this not being a room for any living purpose or any room type prohibited by NEC, and can be left in an unfinished state with no sheetrock if that would help)?

What would _you_ do (be creative) to get a panel on the _inside_ of a house (at the time of designing the floor plan) which has no attached garage and no basement? Putting the main breaker in a separate box on the ouside by the meter is OK by me ... it's the branch breakers I want to be on the inside (and not in a laundry room because of some chemicals that might be used there).

Not that I plan to build this in Dallas, but I am curious if you could figure out a way, knowing how they deal with these things.

Do they codify these variances from NEC in Dallas?

Put it someplace where you'd hang a painting. Then it's easily accessable, but out of sight.

Unfortunately, hanging a painting in front of panel is a Code violation. :(

Oh, and getting back to the upside down issue...I remembered that every Levitt and Sons house I've ever been in has the pushmatic panel installed upside down. I guess this is legal (no up down, just in and out). All the breakers read "NO" when they are energized, though.

"(and not in a laundry room because of some chemicals that might be used there)"

What chemicals are you storing inside a house that would have any effect on a panel?
Bleach? Not an issue.
Paint thinner/flammable solvents?
If it is leaking enogh to be a problem with a panel the weashing machine and dryer have plenty of open contacts in them also.

If I remember correctly cuttler-hammer panels can be inverted and then the main turned over so off is down but the main is at the bottom. Breakers are not actually sensitive to current direction (it reverses 60 times a second anyway).

Any AHJ who objects to a utility closet needs to get a life.

HTH (Calcium Hypochlorite) Will destroy aluminum, but I don't think bleach would be a problem. Just keep your pool chemicals out of the area!

Bottom line is most modern panels have NO upside down.
It's either top fed or bottom fed. Even the labels and door handles are printed sideways.
I can't remember the last new up/down motion main breaker I've seen.

There are some petroleum based cleaners that sometimes have to be used to clean grease and oil. It would not be advised to use these in the washing machine or dryer. But that's one reason there's usually a big sink in a laundry room. Also, mixing some of these chemicals can be nasty (normally you wouldn't, but mistakes can happen). I'm not really thinking of a specific scenario, but rather, being exceptionally cautious.

As for the upside down issue, consumer grade panels do seem to have always a horizontal main breaker. I guess that's because the main breaker is factory installed, so it's horizontal so it can still be inverted and be OK.

Personally I'd rather use MLO panels and a separate main box. But that can get expensive.

If hanging a painting over a panel is a violation, then I suppose maybe closing a wooden door over a panel is, too. I don't know what the point is other than making sure it's easy to find. A painting is easy enough to remove; certainly nothing permanent should ever block access. But the tendency is nothing at all should block access. Well, a door would block access even if it is a door to a utility room. Of course, if you are looking for a panel, you might expect it to be in some room, and search all the rooms (and garage, and where the wires come in).

I can just close off that hallway and make it be the utility room. That hall in a few of my tenative plans has no important use besides utility access. At least it would have 2 paths of egress.

I'm designing the floor layouts for 3 panels, some with all 3 at the entrance, and some with 2 of them placed elsewhere as subpanels. Telecom, security, and lighting controllers, would most likely be with the panels.

When we are doing a rewire/service upgrade,we most often put the entire service panel outside in answer to skapare's question. We are currently involved with a GC on a major remodel including a second floor over a garage. Between the kitchen and the garage there have been two service rooms constructed, one with the hot water heater and the other with the service panel. In our opinion this was the best option even though the distance from the panel to the service entrance/meter involved about 30 ft. of 3/0 from the panel to the meter base. However, due to the area of the present house as well as the location of the new construction, this was the best option. The panel room contains nothing but the service panel and it is away from the main living area and will have a locking door. IMO, a service panel should be no where around a living area where a curious child can access it or where there is any chance of flamable material. We moved a service panel last week from a linen closet in a bathroom to outside under the meter box.

In our opinion this was the best option even though the distance from the panel to the service entrance/meter involved about 30 ft. of 3/0 from the panel to the meter base.

In a case like this, don't you have to have a main disco close to the meter base? How are you handling this?

davidr:

Yes, he should have a main disconnect within prescribed distance of the entrance, or outside. I'm not sure but I think it can be up to no more than 2 feet if metal conduit. That would be just enough to bend around to a main disconnect on the inside that isn't a back to back. But if there is a place there on the inside for a main disconnect, then why not the panel, too. I suspect the disconnect is outside.

I don't mind if a main disconnect is outside. It can be locked up in a way adequate to prevent abuse, yet not hinder the fire department from safely shutting off the power. It's the branch panels I want inside, and I'll design in what I need to get them there. It's all still at the design stage, but it's not anywhere near the stage I will know which AHJ would be involved.

Always fascinating how local issues predominate in these things. Here in Manitoba, service panels must be inside NOT outside (too darned cold....). Everyone builds with basements here, so they're always in the basement. If the underground service wire enters at the attached garage, it runs in conduit under the concrete slab before entering the basement wall.

Our house-under-construction has 2 200 amp Siemens panels with main breakers each, both right-side-up, all breakers opening/closing sideways. Didn't need a main disconnect ahead of the actual panel. Good thing, based on the price the contractor mentioned it would cost.

jay haitch

I am installing 2 200 amp panels with a 320 amp meter base. I double lugged the meter and one panel is at the meter then I have a disconnect with the other panel about 50 feet on the other side of the house. How did you ground your panels? I have #4 copper but that grounds both.

Any suggestions?

Jay,

IMO, you already have a code problem that needs to be addressed. There is a requirement that all service disconnects be grouped together. 50 feet between the service disconnects (main breaker in each panel) is stretching the requirement quite a bit.

Tom

First off; Freddy, you are addressing a post made almost a year ago. I doubt the OP is still around to answer.

Tom, I read it that he has a 320 base, with a panel and a disconnect for the second panel all grouped together. I may be wrong though.

I must say. Freddy, if you have to ask such a question about grounding/bonding then IMHO you really have no place doing this type of installation. A 320/400 amp service is well beyond the scope of general DIY work.