+1 Randy.

I think it is as important as U-Factor but as people are latching on to that (I think people like you, HomeSealed, mmarse1, Fenestration Taylor, etc. are probably as responsible for driving that awareness and manufacturer's response as anything) and we will soon see the boom of manipulated numbers.

We will start have to reading over the tests and seeing how the unit was prepped for the test at some point.

If the mdyodeler above is talking about the window that I'm thinking of, that is probably example numero uno of a window that is no better than mediocre which has "finessed" a good AI rating. Between the surface 4 low e coatings and manipulated AI #'s, we are going to start to see a lot of crap products that look great on paper. Nothing like making it harder on the consumer.

He registered yesterday, it was also his first post. I am left wondering when the other half of his tag team will appear with the rest of his spam. Call me a pessimist but........

I'm a confused consumer.

I was ready to pull the trigger on Marvin Infinity windows because my salesman said I will not feel a draft like I do with my current vinyls, and, for no solid reason, I like the idea of using fiberglass instead of vinyl. I'm not here for the looks, I want to know how well they perform.

I was ready to sign the contract on 5 double-hungs, but am holding him off right now trying to decide is this the best window for my home. I'm going to try to get a Sunrise dealer to give me a quote as well on their Restorations line. But I'm not thrilled about going to vinyl, even if they say it's "premium" because of the original vinyl's I bought and how bad they are.

I've scoured the web and am disappointed that there are no AI numbers for the Infinity line. Don't they have to post that on the sticker that comes on the window? Does anyone work someplace where they may be able to take a quick peek at what the number is?

AI numbers not withstanding, on a properly installed Infinity window you will not be feeling a draft. AI numbers are a great tool but a window with a high AI rating does not mean it will be a drafty window. While the number is high by some manufacturers standard it is still a very good window.

I agree that the Infinity is a nice piece, but I have a recent client that would beg to differ about feeling drafts. We just removed Infinity's that were only months old installed by another company. Installation all looked proper. We replaced them with Okna vinyl and she could not be happier.
If you want a window that has the richness of look and feel that wood does, buy a wood window knowing that there will be some sacrifice in performance and air tightness. If the look of a high end vinyl product is acceptable, you will get better performance. Fiberglass is a bit of a niche product IMO.
The Sunrise Restorations if I am not mistaken has an AI of .02, with the Infinity around .2. That is a tangible difference that very well could be felt, but will certainly be seen in energy loss. The Sunrise also has a better U-factor, design pressure, etc. Don't be deterred by some junky old builder grade vinyl. There are great and poor products in every material, to lump them together is unwise.

Did your client pay for new windows on top of what she paid for the Infinity? I was thinking of asking the Infinity dealer that should these windows feel drafty, he'll take them out and refund my money....but I doubt very much anyone would go for that.

Good question. That is information that I was not privy to . I do know that when we removed the windows it needed to be done with great care so that she could return them. Not sure if it was for a full refund, but I'd guess that some type of deal was struck.

If I may ask, if a supremely airtight window is your goal here, based on the information given why would you try to proceed in such a manner? I wouldn't look at the MPG on a 1 ton pickup truck and ask the dealer if I can return it if it got bad mileage... and again, to clarify, the Infinity is a nice looking, well-made piece, just like pretty much everything that Marvin offers. Very high end products, it is just that they do not cater to the high level performance buyer that would sacrifice form for function. My advice would be to prioritize what your goals for this project are, and choose from there.

Thanks for calling me out on that one (lol)!!!

I have a really great repoire with the sales person and owner of the installation company. They were also going to fix some existing Marvin wood windows I have in the house so I thought this would be great....one stop shopping. It's impossible to find anyone to help fix weather stripping on the tracks in the window without them charging a lot of money for something that seem's simple. I'd attempt it, but I'd probably make it worse than better.

That's why I'm hanging on tight to this installer even though it appears other windows might be better.

I've had about equal nay-sayers as well as acknowledgements to go ahead with the Infinity line.

I thought Marvin was a higher level performance window. I guess I'm finding out that they aren't, they are just popular.

I don't care what the window looks like, I just want to be assured that whatever I in....I don't feel drafts coming through like I do on my 18 yo vinyls.

I picked Casement windows to achieve minimum AI numbers. They close and seal like a refrigerator door. In gale force winds, you cannot feel a draft through them. These are Integrity casements. You can get grills that make them look more traditional like a double hung.

By all accounts, the Integrity is a tighter window and not bad looking when you are talking about the Wood-Ultrex combo.

The numbers in the Infinity aren't good by comparison to the tight windows out there.

The casements are a bit tighter icewoz, I hadn't seen if you are looking at DH's or Ca's... Again, Marvin isn't "just a name", its a high end product, just not in the same way as others. Say for instance you are looking at cars: For $100k you can get a super high performance sports car that may not have a ton of bells and whistles, or a super luxury car that isn't that fast. Both are great, they just serve a different purpose. Same case here.

When i say that the window i sell has an air infiltration rating of .04 at any size under 48"x72" that is the WORST tested value at over 50 different sizes tested under that range.

your right that if i wanted to boast the best numbers i could that i would quote my BEST tested data on a huge double hung with a tested value of .017. but i DONT. i am a numbers geek. i research my window down to the tiniest detail, i have my rep on speed dial and he jokes that we talk more than he does with his wife.

i use to preform energy efficiency audits here in the state of North Carolina and help with the Energy Star new Home building initiative raising the bar on home builders in NC as well. I have quit jobs for being asked to keep information from my customers or flat out lie.

Your all right that we need to be careful about convenient test numbers, and we need to do our research before purchasing. but please dont accuse me of presenting the information in any other light other than the flat out truth. i havnt even said who i work for so lying wouldnt benefit my company or myself in any way.

and last but not least, i have been selling energy efficient construction materials for over 7 years and i chose the windows i am selling now for my home, when i was selling for another company (even forfeiting my employee discount to buy outside my company at the time to get the better window)

I don't think HomeSealed was "accusing" you of anything.

His observation that "any double up to 48 by 72" is not an accurate representation is a fair one.

As stated (and you obviously know this as well), air infiltration is expressed relative to window size. While it may not be the case with the window that you are referencing above, many folks do test abnormally large (and unrepresentative of the windows that are being replaced) size unit to lower the air infiltration rate artificially.

Most windows, as you test the more normal size units, will have a higher AI number because of the reduction in square footage. If the window you are referencing does not, that is interesting and certainly bucks the trend.

Regardless, I am glad to see the rationale behind your post and I can't speak for the board as a collective (as there is none), we are always happy to have the contributions of someone that is focused on performance and the technical part of the renovation equation.

You guys are amazing. Thanks for all of the info.

I'm still holding off on ordering the Infinity, but after talking to Sunrise dealers, the two closest to me are not very helpful and I'm not getting that good feeling like I get with the Infinity rep.

I'm going to be order 4 double-hungs - 26.6"x56.6" with LoE 272 w/Argon and another a bit smaller than that for the bathroom.

What do you guys think of that size as related to AI numbers?

mdyandle, I wasn't accusing you of not speaking truthfully, but your statement was inaccurate regardless of motive. My only intention is that the consumers and others that read the info here receive accurate and complete information. It sounds like that may be your goal as well, so we are all on the same page there... That said, I have to admit that your further explanation of that statement doesn't make much more sense.
1) As WoW stated (and was mentioned previously in the thread), AI ratings tend to get better, not worse as the size gets larger.
2)Nobody quotes the WORST rating of all of the units they test. They either quote the best, or what the more ethical companies do is quote around a "standard" size so that people can compare apples to apples.
I don't doubt that whatever window you sell gets an AI of .04 (which is very good), it's just the way that the info was presented was not entirely accurate.
Forgive me if that all comes across as argumentative, that is not my intention. With all of the manipulation and flat out lies that pervade the window industry, most of the pros who contribute regularly to this forum are all about providing objective data. Again, it appears that you are of like mind, so that is a good thing.

mdyodeler you stated that you work for the largest replacement window company in America. That would be Window World. If that is the case, your enthusiasm is a bit misguided along with your assessment of what makes a great window.

icewoz, that is not a very tight window regardless of the size. Too bad about Sunrise, it is a nice window.

So basically I'm wasting my money yet again.

I am confused icewoz. Are you going with the Sunrise or the Infinity at the sizes listed above?

The Sunrise (Restorations or Vanguard series) is a very solid window and well built.

Good air numbers as well. It would do fine for you.

The Infinity

Nothing about the smaller size will make it less leaky (air wise).

I think HomeSealed has some personal experience with that where a customer replaced some less than 1 year old Infinity windows. Just keep that in mind.

How does the overall U-factor play into the difference between Infinity and Restorations? I have found that both windows are very close:

- Restorations: .29 (can be lowered to .18, but I wonder at what price) - http://funspacedirectofmichigan.com/window_performance.htm

- Infinity: .30 - http://retailers.infinitywindows.com/five-point-proof

I did get an appointment with a Sunrise dealer for Sept. 29th

I always recommend that consumers get the best U-Factor window that they can afford.

Safe rule of thumb is that ever 1 point of U-Factor (actually 0.01 points) is about 4% more efficient.

10 points better = about 40% more efficient (using the U-Factor 0.30 as the standard).

Soft-lite dealer coming over today with an Elements window. Hopefully will be a little less expensive than the Infinity's.

Excellent thread, thanks to TxAl and all contributors! Just have to point out that the installation details are typically MUCH more important than AI ratings.

On our only home that tested below PassivHaus airtightness levels, we could feel air coming through the spray foam between the window jamb and framing. Unless your builder is regularly achieving ultra-tight blower door test results and consistently eliminates this being an air-leakage source, then taking a belt and suspenders approach at this location is probably more important than AI ratings. We are using backer rod + caulk and/or vapor permeable tape to the interior in addition to spray foam but I prefer to use very little spray foam in the sloped sill area to increase drainage properties.

All that being said, I strongly agree that manufacturers should be required to post equivalent AI ratings. Good U-factor/R-value is a waste when bypassed by air leakage.

That is a very good window.

Keep us posted.

+1. The Elements scores very well in u factor, ai, and dp. Installation most certainly is crucial as well, but as far as product that is a very good choice.

I thought the Elements might be a little less expensive than the Infinity, but came out to 4700 for double pane and $5700 for triple pane.

The salesman seemed knowledgeable, but I knew everything he was going to say because I did the research already.

If these are second floor windows with 2 windows facing north, two facing south (only sun in the winter, otherwise tree's keep them shaded the entire summer) and one smaller bathroom window facing east, do I need triple pane? These are double-hung windows.

Infinity installer was going to replace molding and sills as well for $3900.

Next Monday is Restorations by Sunrise time.

What is everyone's thoughts/opinions on the ProVia Aeris double-hung line? Comparable to Elements/Restorations, not as good but not bad/bad? I can't find any numbers on their window's either.

Not quite the same level, but not bad.

Better than Marvin Infinity or in line with them? One thing I'm not liking is they don't fill their sash with any kind of foam. I kind of like that idea with Elements/Restorations. I think I'm answering my own question here, lol.

I think you are as well.

The Provia window is probably going to be tighter than the Infinity window (most are).

5 Double Hung Restorations: $4189 installed.
5 Double Hung Elements: $4475 installed.

Deciding which way to go. All of the interior foam on the Elements, including the sill, for some reason are attracting me more than the Restorations. However, the Elements dealer is not too keen on mulling 2 of the windows together, which is what I would prefer.

Both are good windows of course, but the Elements is the stouter of the two. It's thicker frames do reduce the glass space but they also provide better long term durability.

+1 to Ultra's comments. Pretty much a toss up between the two, with a slight edge to the performance/structure of the SL , and looks/glass to the Sunrise. Time to really vet the two dealers in question and decide which one you like better. $4k is a lot of money. Which one do you feel more comfortable handing over that check to?

Do you think those prices are too high for those windows?

I think the prices fall in the reasonable range. Unless the pricing is ridiculously high or low, it's not our place to second guess the contractor who's seen the details of the job that we haven't, and who's cost of doing business may be higher or lower than our own.

Perfectly stated Ultra Windows.

It is human nature to want to vet a price before proceeding and as much as we would love to do that for folks, we cannot comment with any sort of informed opinion on the final price in markets that we do not serve.

The project specifications and cost of doing business are ultimately unknowns to us.

Please don't take my "$4k is a lot of money " comment as saying that the price is high, that was not what I was getting at. I was just saying the $4k is a big check to write so make sure that you are handing it to someone that you trust.

I'd agree with my fellow pro's above, in that 1) the price does fall within what can be a pretty wide range that would be consider "normal", and 2) It is really impossible to say exactly where within that range it falls without knowing every detail of the project. $800+ per window may be on the higher end for a "caulk and walk" plain white vinyl replacement, but may actually be cheap for a window loaded with a Cadillac option package and complex install. There are regional price differences as well, along with the size and business model of the individual company in question. Certainly a company with a showroom, employees, service team, etc with a great reputation and 10-20 years in business is worth a premium over another guy that works out of his home and is a "one man band".

All this talk about Air Infiltration is making me rethink our project. The original window schedule for our great room is to have two 30 x 72 casements in the center, flanked by pairs of 30 x 60 casements (6 windows total). We now are planning to change the 30 x 72 openable casements to fixed windows, and mull together the two pairs of 30 x 60 casements, still openable. Now I am thinking about changing the mulled together pairs to 60 x 60 fixed picture windows and return the 30 x 72 casements to being openable. All are triple-paned with low-E Ar-filled. These plans are using Marvin Integrity, but we are also thinking about Loewen. Total cost for 30 windows, including the aqbove 6, is $26,000.

Casements are all going to be pretty darn tight.

I don't believe that the Integrity is available in triple pane... Perhaps its a brand new option if they do.
+1 to WoW's comments though. Casements are less of a concern as opposed to sliding windows regarding air leakage.

HomeSealed,
The quote I have from the Marvin dealer says "Integrety Casement - Right Hand Wood Ultrex Tripane LoE 272-180 w/Argon". This is $571 for a 29 x 48 casement.

This post was edited by MTVhike on Wed, Oct 8, 14 at 18:56

It is offered on the wood/ultrex casements only. Forgot about that... No double hungs or sliders, no all ultrex.

Well....just kidding.

I was wrong up there as well.

So we are building a house and we have been looking at the Marvin Infinity line as well but my concern is the NFRC ratings as well as the AI. I know Marvin makes a great window but this particular line does not seem to have good test numbers, relatively speaking.

This particular line is fiberglass and we are not married to that. We just want a nice efficient window. Any suggestions for a home in NC?

Thanks

New construction or remodel? The Integrity is a nice unit.

Does the Integrity wood-ultrex double hung have the same air infiltration issues/complaints as the Infinity double hung?