I agree, Palimpsest, that is probably her best case scenario (even though I don't like it). Since some representatives of the company are trying to deny that damage is their fault, it appears that Poohpup needs to fight even to get that.

Does her receipt or contract show that installation is included? Did she pay a separate fee for install on top of the purchase price? What does the fine print say about the install? If there is no fine print, what are a consumer's rights in her jurisdiction?

Thanks again for all the support and all the comments and opinions. The more information I have and the more I think this through, the better prepared I am to deal with this issue.

a2gemini, that is indeed an analog clock. lol Looks wise, it is my favorite thing about these ovens. I'm sorry you're having trouble with your induction cooktop! Oh no! Haven't looked, but have you posted over on the appliance forum? I thought induction was totally silent.

suzannesl, the comment about talking to the moms at the bus stop is just reality. I'm in an area where the homes are at the age where kitchens and bathrooms are being done and roofs are being replaced. When you're doing a major remodel, everyone wants to know how it is going. I've have three neighbors who are planning a kitchen remodel and have been over repeatedly to see the progress and are very interested in how things turn out. I thought it was the perfect time to remind them of that.

clarygrace, thanks for the support. I think merchants and service people need to understand that we speak to each other about the good and bad and the cyber world is a powerful method of communication. Not to mention a great source of support!

lazygardens, LOVED the video! I'll have to check out more of his story. It sounds like he really made lemonade out of his lemon. Thanks for sharing that.

linelle, the point you make is a good one. But I don't think refunding my money and calling it good is an acceptable solution in this scenario. I purchased a Thermador cookstop floor model back in December at the same time I purchased the ovens. The cooktop also had scratches and I looked at it, decided the scratches were worth the savings and purchased it. It was supposed to be delivered the same day as the ovens. The day prior to delivery, the salesman inspected the cooktop to make sure it was in the same condition and discovered it had been scratched several more times. He called me and explained the damage and told me there was no way I'd want the cooktop in that condition. He refunded my money. In that scenario I think that was totally appropriate. Being a floor model it was a "one of a kind" and I hadn't taken possession of it yet. I don't think they owed me anything other than my money back. The big difference between that cooktop and my ovens is that I had possession of my ovens. They didn't damage their ovens, they damaged MY ovens. At that point, I think what I paid for them is irrelevant. I think their responsibility is to repair or replace what they damaged. Because the damage is so severe, I have real concerns that they'll be able to repair them. But I'm no expert on this type of repair so I'll have to see what they say and go from there. As far as being back to square one and not being out anything if they just refund my money, that is far from reality. My custom cabinets were made for these ovens. I purchased my Thermador Pro warming draw because I had these ovens. I purchased the specific speed oven because it had the same type of pro handle the coordinated with these ovens. If I hadn't purchased these ovens, I would have made other choices. Maybe that seems trite to some, but it is reality. If I'd bought Wolf ovens, I'd have purchased a Wolf warming drawer. I wouldn't be back at square one if they simply refunded my money.

jerzeegirl, of the five scenarios, the only options I'd consider fair are replacement or repair at no cost to me. I don't think the fifth option is even slightly okay because I think I can prove when the damage took place. The ovens were inspected prior to delivery, I was there for the delivery and would have noticed the crooked door and the mark on the door if they were in that condition then. The crooked lower door is very obvious. The men who delivered the ovens took some great notes about the condition the ovens were left in (placed on layers of cardboard and wrapped in blankets and cardboard). I have approximately 20 different people who were regularly in and out of the garage who could verify those ovens never moved as they were in the middle of all the other appliances. I feel pretty confident I can prove that.

colorfast, I don't have any kind of contract. I have a sales receipt that lists the condition of the ovens (floor model in new condition with ding and scratch noted). The installation was arranged and paid for at a later date. The only reason I had them install the ovens was because the warranty started from the date of delivery or the date THEY installed the ovens.

red_lover, these are discontinued floor models. Thermador's Pro series now has double convection where mine are convection on the upper only. According to my GC, the widths of the 30" ovens are standard but the height isn't. The new Thermadors would fit my cabs and match the warming drawer that I purchased to match my ovens.

palimpsest, I would totally agree that when you return goods, you are refunded what you paid. I'm not returning these. They damaged MY ovens. I agree there is some risk with purchasing a floor model which is why noting the previous damage or imperfections was done prior to and after delivery. Once I took delivery they became MY ovens. I don't think they have the right to damage my property and then do anything other than repair or replace what they damaged. If your mom sells you a $20,000 car for $500 and your car is damaged, does it matter how much you paid for it? Would the person that damaged it only be liable for up to $500 because that's all you paid for it?

Was just about to post this when I got a call from the Operations Manager. He put me on a conference call with the Installation Manager and they asked me a whole lot of questions about the delivery and installation. Asked a lot of questions about the two guys who installed the ovens. Ended the call saying that they would get back to me later today. That call was good timing as I'd just spent some time thinking about the questions and points raised here.

Well, Poohpup, you make a very compelling argument on your behalf. They did damage YOUR property and that's probably one of the reasons they carry insurance. I hope you get replacements.

Judge Judy is a guilty pleasure of mine. I actually thought of you and your situation on the show. It helps to present yourself well and unemotionally, as you have done above. I can hear her ruling in your favor. May it be so.

They damaged your ovens that you purchased from them essentially used from the showroom for about 50% of retail. If they were worth full price after being floor models, they would be sold for full price after being floor models.

They damaged your $2500 Thermador ovens that would have been worth $5000 had you bought them new. You didn't buy them new, so they damaged your out of the box, previously installed ovens.

Yep, they damaged my floor model, previously installed ovens that I saved a ton of money on by buying them in that condition. They damaged them. They need to fix them. If they can't fix them, then they need to replace them. I'd be quite happy to have them repaired if they can be repaired. If they can't be repaired, then I'd be quite happy to have them find another floor model in the same condition. If they can't find another floor model in the same condition, then they need to pony up and replace my ovens. I'm not trying to be unreasonable and don't see this as an "opportunity" to get something more than I paid for. I was quite happy with my floor model previously installed ovens. I wasn't even concerned that the bottom was crushed in as long as it didn't affect performance or the integrity of the ovens. Turns out the damage they caused does affect performance so they need to fix it. If they can't fix it or find another floor model to replace it, that isn't my problem. It's theirs.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on this forum, but as bad as I feel for your situation, I agree with palimpsest that their maximum liability is what you paid for the ovens, nothing more, nothing less. You should certainly press them for a better resolution and out of goodwill they might well come through, but I don't think you can expect anything better.

Boy, this is tough one. I see both sides of the situation.

Basically your ovens were unique items, one of kinds. They damaged these unique items. They can't be replaced unless they find the exact ovens with the exact damage you purchased them with. Highly unlikely.

If I had to mediate this I would suggest they take back the ovens, refund your money and give you a gift card toward other appliances. They could also help with finding any other showroom models at other locations that may work for you. I would not expect to get brand new ovens.

This does fall under "buyer beware" and is a lesson to all. Unfortunately for you, Poohpup, you have to learn this lesson for all of us. I would think the store should have a policy in writing for customers purchasing showroom or damaged appliances.

Oh and I see the lesson as be aware when you are buying a unique/floor model, etc. Think what if? Have everything in writing.

I would add to watch installers like crazy. Been lots of horror stories lately.

I do hope things get resolved in a way you are happy with.

Or they need to return your money.

To me buying the floor model is the same as buying something on sale. If they damage it beyond the sale condition I expect them to fix it to that condition or replace it. If what I bought isn't available they have to replace it with something equal. If there is no more thermador ovens of that model then replace it with the next model up. I think if the bottom is damaged and the structural integrity is affected then they need to be replaced. They hired the installation guys. The installers may have not been properly trained or responsible employees. These things happens but they need to make it right.

I disagree with most of those rendering opinions here (and I am also not a lawyer but I'm married to one FWIW).

Let's take a slightly different, hypothetical scenario and see how you all would feel in this case. Let's say that with the same twit installers they had put these ovens on a hand truck and then, on the way to their proper spot, they fell off the hand truck, through the negligence of the twits. When they fell they damaged your already installed cabinets, tile, countertop, whatever. Let's say the cabinets were floor models also, that you got a great deal on. Could the installation company then stand back and say "we'll give you back the money you paid for the oven and that's all"? They damaged something that was owned by you. They need to make you whole.

Shouldn't this appliance installation company have insurance for just this situation? If they ran over your car in the driveway with their truck, and if your brother is a car salesman and you got the car for 1/2 off, do they only have to pay you half?

Along the legal line from those of us who are not lawyers: years ago my sister was t-boned by a delivery truck entering from a side street. Her car was totaled. The insurance payout was the number in the Blue Book, which wasn't much since the car was an older model. Unfortunately for my sister, she had just had a new engine put in the car which cost more than the Blue Book value. Too bad, the insurance only paid Blue Book, no discussion. They were happy to pay out for the ""pain and suffering for the broken toe caused by the crash, and she took it, not because she felt there was "pain and suffering" to amount to much, but because she needed the cash to replace her poor smashed car.

In this case, I suspect if the retailer does anything more than the amount Poohpup actually paid, it will be for the sake of publicity and goodwill - the retail version of "pain and suffering."

Pooh
Yup- posted on appliances. Stop by when you have a chance

you get a gold star for the day. if someone called and told me i would need to pay for the parts to fix ovens that their installers damaged ...i would FREAK OUT. i don't mean, like, yell and scream. well, yes, that -but i would seriously start throwing stuff.

and of course your salesman was embarrassed! omg! of COURSE he was!
it sounds like they understand they were being unreasonable however, so i'm confident things will go your way. ESPECIALLY after the lame a$$ way this was handled!

SunnyAlberta and laxfanmom couldn't have summed up my thoughts any better. For those who think their culpability is limited to the amount I paid, I completely disagree. If I'd purchased them brand new, in the box at a once a year sale and the same thing happened, would you still feel that they could say they'll only reimburse you for the sale price vs replacing them? I'm not returning them. I want them! I want them repaired or replaced. I'm not asking for money. If they came to your home and took your brand new, still in the box ovens and damaged them to the point they couldn't be repaired you'd really think it was okay for them to just reimburse you the sale price and you'd be forced to make up the difference? Really?

The Operations Manager called today with good news. They have accepted the responsibility for the damage. Yea! He told me that they don't believe the ovens were dropped but that damage was caused by lifting the ovens with a handcart from the front (the handles facing the cart) and the oven simply isn't meant to be moved that way. Had they moved it from the side or back it is unlikely we'd have had a problem. He told me that they would like to fix the ovens as the service tech who was out here feels they can be fixed. This will be done at no cost to me. They are ordering parts and have scheduled to come out on the 30th with an installation team and a service team. They plan to remove the ovens and inspect them to determine if they can be repaired. Then the service tech will repair them and they will be re-installed the same day. He also offered his apologies that this happened.

I told him I had some concern that the tech may not have been able to properly diagnose the extent of the damage as he'd only pulled the ovens out about 5 or 6 inches. What would happen if the ovens can't be repaired? He told me not to worry and that they would "take care of me." He wouldn't elaborate and told me not to worry about it. Okay, sure. lol At least they are taking responsibility and I'm thrilled about that. I'm quite happy to have the ovens repaired as long as they can be. So I'm scheduled for the 30th and I plan to video the whole thing. I'm hoping that "take care of me" doesn't mean they plan to encase my feet in concrete and throw me in the river. lol

So happy they are taking responsibility and trying to make it right. Mistakes happen and, while upsetting, they are so much easier to deal with when people own up and take responsibility. I'm hopeful the 30th will go well. If it doesn't, I'll have a video to show you guys.

BTW, an earlier thread about what have you learned from GW? TAKE PICTURES OF EVERYTHING!! When you have service people come in, take pictures before and after of everywhere and everything they'll be working on or have worked on.

I am glad they are taking responsibility and fixing them and that is acceptable to you. But they were *not new ovens bought on sale. They were ovens that were floor display and that is not the same thing--the warranty period did not start at installation in your kitchen (at least not typically). If they were new ovens bought on sale, they would have been new ovens with a complete warranty If they were new ovens they would have had to replace them with new ovens if that was the most appropriate solution.

Nor is this the same as if they had damaged other property in your house.

I never disagreed about their culpability in the damage, but I think your expectation that they would be Required to pony up a brand new double oven when that is *not what you bought is unrealistic.

It's done because it's easier to get people to shut up and go away, and I think our society has grown to behave like that.

I am very glad that things look like they will work out for you.

For the sake of future posters researching similar issues. in fact the dealers bear no responsibility for replacing your used, floor model ovens with new ovens. Period. Damages are valued at depreciated value or the cost of repair. The market value of your ovens has been set by your own purchase of them, and if they are not reparable then that is all you are legally owed. If this store goes above and beyond, then that's great--but it's good will and not a legal obligation. I notice a lot of the comments on this thread use the word "agree" or "disagree." Agreement, disagreement and opinion are all utterly irrelevant. Liability is set by the law, and the law doesn't care what you agree with.

That said, I think the dealer is making a good business decision, since it takes extra effort above and beyond to recover from the stupidity of their installation efforts. But other posters in a similar position should not expect the same as a matter of right.

palimpsest, while the ovens were floor models used for display, they were sold to me as new condition with the exception of the said ding and scratch. The previous "installation" means they were removed from the box and put in a cabinet on display. They were never hooked up or turned on. They carry the full manufacturer warranty which started the day they were delivered OR the day they were installed by the appliance store. And yes, that is in writing. The warranty is the reason I had the appliance store install them in the first place. These are not appliances purchased in "as in" condition.

It's not typical that display models carry the full warranty around here because built-in appliances are usually at least plugged in so you can see the lighting and display.

I stand corrected.

That's irrelevant. Their market value was not the same as a new appliance.

For once, I agree with marcolo :-)

I am very glad that your situation sounds resolved! I think that it really depends on what state you live in as to how this situation would resolve itself. Being in CA, they would probably have to replace your ovens with new ones even if they could repair them! The laws here are that skewed to the consumer. Just an exaggeration of course, but you see what I mean.

So glad it is being resolved for you in a way you are happy with.

Even in a warranty situation, all that is required is that they repair the item. In fact, in most warranty situations, the customer is required to allow the manufacturer to attempt to repair it as the first option. Replacement options have all but disappeared from warranty language unless superseded by state law.

If you bought this used oven from an Ebay seller, do you think that they would do anything other than report the damage to their insurance carrier to be able to reimburse you for the purchase price? Just because you are dealing with a "name" company doesn't mean you are entitled to anything else just because you can use the blackmail threat of spreading ill will against them as leverage. You ARE entitled to receive your money back. You are NOT entitled to a brand new oven of any variety and pushing for that makes you look unreasonable.

I would also ask the question - what if the ovens can't be repaired? "We'll take care of you" is too fuzzy for me.

Pooh your "opinion" is correct in some situations. Don't listen to the people that are presuming to know completely what your situation is. We own a business and had a very similar situation. Our insurance company did pay full replacement cost to our customer. Not the price they paid rather the price it would cost them to replace the item. In our case, the item was replaced with a new model even though the previous model was not new.

I suspect that it depends on what type of insurance policy the business carries. But all of the people that are making blanket statements that you are not entitled to a new product should the repair fail are just incorrect. It entirely depends on the situation. There are never any black and white situations. It varies by state and by insurance carrier.

Good luck!!

I'm with you, Pooh.

This is coming from someone who has been screwed right and left, while playing by others' rules.

But with that warranty, clear evidence that the installers crapped out your ovens, and the fact they were sold as "new" says to me fix to your satisfaction or replace them with same or better.

Of course, I'm not standing in your kitchen, but I'm with you.

holly springs, it's not really a warranty situation. The ovens were damaged during installation. It's the store's liability. The only fly in the ointment would have been if the two guys lied and said the damage was there when they went to install the ovens. In that case, their insurance wouldn't have covered it because once you sign off on the delivery you are responsible for any that happens after that. Luckily, that didn't happen and it looks like the store is comfortable with the fact that the damage was done by the installers.

If they want to make the client "whole" then they either need to fix the ovens so that they are in "like new" condition; or that failing they really have no other choice than to replace them with identical ovens. They also have the option of refunding the client's money but I doubt that's what they want to do at this point.

Hmmmm . . . . . trying to figure out exactly where I may have been unreasonable. To recount what has happened:

- I purchased the ovens.

- Installers damaged my ovens due to their incompetence.

- Service technician hired by the company looked at the ovens and submitted his findings to the company. His report states the damage is consistent with being dropped or being picked up from the front with a handcart.

- I called the salesman to report the damage the explained how the ovens were stored as well as how they were handled by the installers. Thankfully I have another party that witnessed the install.

- Company calls and says they will repair the ovens but I need to pay for the parts.

- I decline their offer to allow me to pay for damage they caused.

- I call the salesman to indicate my unwillingness to accept their offer that I pay for repairs. During that phone call I mention the interest my neighbors have in the outcome of my project. Generally the first question I get at the bus stop "How is your remodel going."

- Company investigates and accepts responsibility for the damage and states they will repair them at their cost.

- I accept their offer to repair the ovens as long as they can be repaired properly.

Hmmmm . . . . I'm missing something. Not one time I have demanded that they replace my ovens. Not one time have I jumped up and down for joy thinking that this is a wonderful chance for the new model ovens. I was and still am perfectly happy with my ovens as long as they can be repaired. I'm not an expert in this field. I'm hopeful they can be repaired but obviously worried what will happen if they cannot be repaired.

This whole thing has been a total PITA and wouldn't be an issue if they hadn't sent incompetent twits out to install my ovens in the first place. That obviously didn't happen. I am a member of Angie's List, a member of this forum, a mom in a neighborhood of homes that are at an age where many are remodeling kitchens and bathrooms. That's just a fact. When I leave a review on Angie's List, talk on this forum or at the bus stop with the other moms in the neighborhood, the good and the bad comes up. That is reality. During my conference call with the Operations Manager and Installation Manager, I took the time to sing the praises of the salesman, the delivery crews and other installers because they've provided excellent service. When I leave my review on Angie's List, discuss my experiences on this forum and talk to the other moms in my neighborhood, I've said the same things. So please explain to me how using those same forums to voice my dissatisfaction with my experience from a company is considered blackmail? Because, believe me, when a company expects me to pay for damage that THEY caused, I'm a pretty dissatisfied lady. That is another fact.

And these are not "used" ovens. They are new. They were removed from the box and set in a cabinet for dislay. They have never been hooked up to power, turned on or used for cooking. They came with the full manufacturers warranty. They may not have been "new in the box" but they are still new, not used ovens.

Unless I misunderstood the intent, there have been several suggestions by other posters who have said you should accept nothing less than two new ovens.

You also said "it was their problem" if the ovens could not be repaired and you would not just accept your money back. This at least implies new ovens unless they can get a floor sample identical to the one you purchased.

I never said you were being unreasonable regarding what you expected the company to do with regards to repairing the ovens they damaged.

I said it was unreasonable to expect brand new replacement ovens in place of a repair, whether it was you or someone else who suggested it, based upon what "floor model" usually implies.

I agree with Marcolo on this one. They don't owe you brand new ovens just because your half priced used ones got a dent. Stop trying to rob the store, this is why consumer prices are always rising.

Pooh, I just don't see this as having ANYTHING to do with the purchase of OVENS.
It'a all about installers.
I don't care if I bought my ovens off craigslist, sears outlet, or Wolf, if I PAY someone to install because I don't want to assume the risk, then they have the responsibility to install it correctly and without damage, working properly. PERIOD.
We bought some doors and windows and one of the windows cracked during installation. So, since we got them at a discount, do they just refund our money? HECK NO. They knew immediately that they broke it, went down, bought a new one just like it and reinstalled.
We install most things ourselves. That's the risk we take, and if we damage, we are assuming the risk.
On the other hand, if we PAY someone to do it "right", then it is up to them.
Most of us are trying to save money these days. If you had installed them yourself and they got damaged, then too bad. But, if you paid for a company to do it in order to have it done correctly, then that should be it. Doesn't matter what you paid for your product, you paid good money for install.
So, all this rambling just to say, it isn't what you paid for the ovens, it's what happened when you paid for the install.

Oceangirl - It is way more than a dent. The ovens don't even work correctly as the bottom is crushed. Your words are extremely harsh. I hope you never find yourself in the situation. Robbing the store...you have got to be kidding. Please also don't ever own a business. When you screw up, you have to pay for your actions no matter how much it costs.

Susie - I totally agree. The installation was pathetic at best and the company must do the right thing whether it is fun or not.

When you run an honest, upstanding company, you must take responsibility for your employees even when the cost is great. If you don't like it as a business owner than get rid of your employees. We have had some bad eggs and they have cost us money but our reputation is important and we treat others how we want to be treated. Let me tell you that it is rough sometimes to do the right thing but taking the easy way out and giving a refund would cast a very negative light on this company IMO.

FYI - I do insurance for a living. With respect to damaging of another persons property, you would need to make the claimant whole.

Any good insurance adjuster would start with trying to pay you what you paid, but the law would side with making you whole, thus establishing legal liability.

This is not the same as the laws surrounding automobile coverage.

This is different than a business personal property coverage which covers their own property which could be valued at either depreciated (ACV) or replacement cost, depending on which coverage the insured bought.

This situation would be covered under the liability portion of an insurance contract, and is not limited to the claimants purchase price but the insured's legal liability.

palimpsest, totally agree with you that it would unreasonable of me not to give them a chance to repair the ovens or at least figure out if they can be repaired. If they can't be repaired, I'm perfectly okay with another floor model in the same condition. My last post which was a little testy had much more to do with the blackmail comment by hollysprings.

susied3 and gw1997 , Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself.

kailuamom, Thanks for your perspective. I would imagine the store would have insurance for these situations should the ovens be beyond repair. For now I'm just going to wait until the 30th and hope they can be repaired.

oceangirl67, couldn't help but take the time to look back on some of your other posts. I'm not exactly sure why you like to come to this site and make silly, inciteful comments. Since I don't know you and don't partake in the same kind of activity, I can only guess. For whatever it is worth, I'm really sorry for whatever is going on in your life that makes you feel the need to do it.

What I learned: make sure it gets delivered on a pallet. Or at least on some heavy plywood.

I agree that if they can't be repaired that the store needs to replace them with a model that is at least as good. My son had a laptop that failed in warranty period and the model he had bought was no longer available so it was replaced with the current model. The new model had better specs than the old but since it couldn't be replaced with the same as what he had, they had to provide the better model.

If you bought the old model of something at a discount because the new models were out and it turned out to be defective and couldn't be repaired, they would need to replace it with a the new model if no old one was available. That would be another case where one paid less for something and it can't be replaced with the same thing so they have to put in the better model.

In this case, they are even more responsible because their installation people didn't follow the proper procedure. When one pays for installation, they should send competent installers. If their installers break it, they need to replace it.

With wall ovens, there is another issue because they aren't all the same height so when a customer has bought the ovens and prepared the cabinets they can't necessarily change to a different brand or start over - which is why refunding the money doesn't do it.

With some warranties, particularly some extended warranties, they limit the liability to fixing the item or refunding your original purchase price, whichever is less - the days of giving you a brand new item are rapidly vanishing. I do agree, however, that this situation is a liability issue, not a warranty issue.

Let me tell you how things work when you can't go around the corner to someone else.

Two years ago my sisters maneuvered (more or less) my parents into replacing the 40+ year old double ovens in the kitchen, one of which needed to be turned up about 25-50 degrees to maintain a temp.

My father, rather than dealing with HD or Lowes, 35 mi away wanted to "keep it in town" and had to order a double oven from a local dealer (A nothing special GE). It came in eventually and the installer was away for a couple weeks, didn't call for a couple weeks and finally called and set a time, and didn't show up. And called with excuses and didn't show up again.

Because it was a nice day and he went fishing instead.

My dad, who was 86 at the time and, by this date dealing with a dying spouse, who had had an extremely bad day at the hospital while he was home waiting for the installer, called the dealer and said "Listen, your installer has not been very good about putting this oven in, and my circumstances have changed and I don't want you to deliver the oven. I want to cancel the transaction."

And the dealer said "Okay, Mr. I will refund your money minus a $400 restocking fee. Hardly nobody wants a double oven around here and I ain't gonna be able to sell it for years, mebbe, so what am I gonna do with it?"

After a certain amount of discussion at home, my dad called back and said "You know what? Fine, take the $400 and keep your oven because it's in the contract, and I have bigger things to worry about" (and fortunately money isn't one of them.)

As it turns out he was given a full refund, and we are not sure why.

That's customer service where I grew up.

Since I continue to read about what people "agree" with--this is from the Delaware trial handbook. To make sure I wasn't crazy I checked a few states other than mine (MA), but this is the way I learned torts:

Where tortious activity results in injury to property, the measure of damages generally is the difference in value of the property immediately before and immediately after the injury. This measure applies to real property33 as well as personal property.34 Where other values are implicated which justify repair or restoration of the property, the measure of damages may be the cost of repair.35 If the loss In value cannot be remedied by repairs, the measure of damages in an appropriate case is the value of the property just before the injury less its salvage value immediately after the injury.36 An owner may testify as to the value of the property before the accident on the theory that being familiar with the property, the owner is presumed to know its worth in a general way.37 Expert testimony, however, is necessary on the issue of the damaged value of the property.38

Where personal property has no easily ascertainable market value, such as used clothing and similar personal effects, one possible measure of damages is the replacement value of like merchandise that had been in use for the same length of time and in the same condition.39

I can give many, many more examples, but I won't. Unless there is specific case law or statute to the contrary, which is unusual, the measure of property damages in ordinary negligence like this is generally the cost to repair an item, or its depreciated value. I'm not interested in what somebody's insurance policy may cover; I'm talking about what they are liable for.

So, if a workman comes into your house and accidentally breaks a chair that he wasn't even working on, you can expect to sue him for the cost of repair, or, if that doesn't work, the cost of used furniture. Not the cost of buying a new chair at C&B. A judge or jury has some latitude to decide differently depending on circumstances but there is certainly no general rule that you get full replacement cost for a ruined item.

I'm not directing this at you, Poohpup, but I would not want somebody to find this thread and fail to protect themselves because they got the impression that they enjoy some kind of automatic guarantee. They don't, even if they "agree" they do. That is why you should write contracts for contractors to bid on that say if you break it, you fix it as new.

But isn't the "value" of the property determined by appraisal, not purchase price. You might buy something for far below what its actual market value is. Although poohpup may have paid $2,500 for her ovens, an appraiser might say that the actual value before they were broken and with their two little scratches was $4,500 for example.

I'm glad that they are going to try to fix it. And if you stick to your guns, they might replace it with a new version if that doesn't work and if they think that it is not worth fighting you on it.

BUT, that doesn't mean that they have a legal obligation to do so. The fact that insurance can be purchased that covers replacement value is irrelevant here. Replacement cost would be relevant if you were claiming against your insurance company. That is a benefit that you might have purchased with your premiums. For all you know, they have purchased it as well for damage caused by their installers. But that doesn't alter their legal obligation to you. They don't have some enhanced duty because they have a good insurance plan.

You have the right to be made whole if the damage was caused through the negligence of another. You say that being made whole would be replacement with the most comparable new appliance. I'm not sure that courts in your jurisdiction would agree. Keep in mind that this is a question of state law, so what is important is what your state law provides. Courts in your state could say that making you whole would be refunding you your out-of-pocket costs and the installation costs. I'm pretty sure that courts in my state would say that, particularly because of the relatively short time period between the purchase of the appliance and today, and the fact that the only consequential damages that you are claiming (i.e., you might have purchased other appliances) are hypothetical and intangible. By intangible, I mean that you can't really put a value on them. In other words, what is the value of having matching appliances. To the TKO, it may be huge. But in hard dollars, the argument would be that you got your money value out of the warming oven, and you can't prove a hard dollar loss.

I also think that there is likely to be very little sympathy in the courts for a claim that you should get a stove that is twice the value of the one that was damaged when you only bought the store model a few months ago. I know that you say that this product wasn't used, and therefore, they should replace it with something that is new. We can quibble about used vs. new, but it was a floor model. It did have a lower retail value than a new in the box. It had dings. The installer doesn't have an obligation to give you more than what you had, and that is a floor model with dings or the market value of one. In this case, it seems to me that your purchase price would determine the market value.

Anyway, I hope it works out for you. I would also push for replacement if the repair doesn't work. But I wouldn't kid myself that they were violating some law if they didn't replace it with a new version of the ovens if the repair doesn't work. I'm not giving or intending to give any legal advice here, but I don't think that they have a legal obligation because you relied on the ovens working to other matching appliances.

I would, however, try to pin down what the warranty will be on the ovens if the repair seems to be successful.

That's what I trying to say about my sister's car, Marcolo. Yes, she just put a new engine in it, but for liability purposes all she was "owed" in the legal sense was its value according to the Kelly Blue Book. This is CA, but that pretty much follows your MA citation.

ON the other hand, in Poohpup's situation, the retailer may feel it's in their best interest to do more than their minimum legal responsibility. Goodwill, repeat business, word of mouth, all of these things will affect their bottom line in the future. If they're smart, they will go beyond what a court of law would hold them to. If they ever find out about this thread, they will certainly do more than the minimum because they know as well as we do that the minimum legal is one thing and "making it right" is a whole different critter.

Actually, suzannesl, I don't think that is correct. Your sister could have claimed the value of the car, and that could have been higher than the Blue Book value. I was in a similar situation, where the Blue Book didn't reflect the fact that the car had extremely low mileage and was more valuable than the Blue Book. I got three quotes from dealers as the true sales value of car at the time that it was totalled, which was higher than Blue Book, and the insurance had to pay me the higher value.

But, in this case, there is little time between the purchase of the floor model and today. So, the value of the appliance is most likely going to be linked to the purchase price. It will be difficult to prove that any more is owed because of the consequential loss -- the purchase of the matching appliances -- into the value that the company owes her. It is like if your sister also claimed that she is owed more because she was inconvenienced with day care because she couldn't transport her kids when her car was damaged. That is a consequential and intangible loss. Hard to establish and even harder to claim.

I suppose that the OP could try to prove that she had gotten a steal on the original purchase price of the appliances, and they were worth more than she paid. I doubt the success of such an argument since she would be making it to the same company that gave her the steal.

There isn't any magic table that states the firm value of everything. You're certainly entitled to argue that your damaged property was worth more than X, because of Y. Sometimes you win that argument, and sometimes you don't.

Again, it's good to remember we're talking about something specific here. I understand that Poohpup never even argued she deserved brand new ovens. But other posters seem to believe there is a clear entitlement to new replacements for damaged goods, and that is simply not what the law says.

On the ethical or business level, it's a whole different matter. If your installers are so incompetent as to destroy your own appliances; and your service people are so incompetent as to tell a customer she has to pay to repair the damage you caused; then you better not stand on legal niceties.

If your installers are so incompetent as to destroy your own appliances; and your service people are so incompetent as to tell a customer she has to pay to repair the damage you caused; then you better not stand on legal niceties.

And that is, indeed, the bottom line.

I wanted to thank everyone who has offered their support and advise. Knowledge is power and being able to hear all the different opinions and points of view is exceedingly helpful. I feel much better equiped to deal with this whole situation because of the advise and opinions offered here. I really am grateful.

I just wanted to post some pictures of the ovens. I wish I had taken photos when the service tech was here and had them pulled out from the cabinet. They were only pulled forward about 5 or 6" but it was much easier to see the extend of the damage.

Not a great picture but the best I could do of the ding in the top oven door. It's blurry but you can see that the top inside corner of the door has a ding. You can't see it when the door is closed.

This is the scratch that was on the handle when I purchased the ovens. By far more noticable than the ding but not nearly as noticable when the camera flash isn't on it.

This is a scratch on the lower oven door caused by the installers. This is the one that we thought could be buffed out. You can see where the oven is crushed on the bottom.

This shows the bottom right of the oven.

And the left side.

These were obviously taken with very little of the damage visible. The worst of the damage (at least what I saw) was visible when the ovens were pulled forward. I'll be taking pictures when they pull them out on the 30th.

Didn't realize how much construction dust on them until I saw the pictures! The flash shows every spec!

I'll let you know what happens on the 30th. Fingers crossed that they can repaired. Thanks again for all the help, support, opinions and advise. More to come!

Hmmm. I'm no expert, but these look trashed to me.

A few yrs ago, my Gagg combi was being repaired and the repairman essentially screwed it up.

Mine had been discontinued. Gagg gave me the newer model to replace it.

This may not have any similarity to your experience, but thought I would share it just in case.

Hope you have a good resolution.

PoohPup - I am so sorry this unfortunate recklessness occurred. Because of your post, video cameras will be setup and running at various angles when our appliances are uncrated. When the semi driver off loaded the appliances (on heavy pallets) he recommended we confirm delivery, but not condition until inspected at installation. I have no idea if this is valid, but we signed with his recommendations.

Again, I am sorry to read about the damage to your ovens.

red_lover, glad to hear your oven mishap had a happy ending. I hope mine does.

motherof3sons, I think you're wise to do just that. In this age of digital pics where it doesn't cost anything to take tons and tons of photos, I think everyone should snap away like crazy before, during and after any kind of delivery/repair/service call. It doesn't hurt and might just save you tons. I'd take photos of your appliances right now to show how they're stored and more photos at various times during the remodel just so show you weren't moving them around and they just sat patiently waiting for experts to install them.

I don't think the ovens are 'trashed'. There is a separate piece or 'base', presumably the part that is crushed, that shows up on the parts diagram and costs less than $70. I'd be more concerned about the scratch on the bottom oven door that was caused by the installers. A new door skin is close to $200 and may or may not be a quick repair.

BTW, looking at the diagram of the handle, it looks like you'll be able to rotate that round section so the scratch isn't front & center. Otherwise, for a ridiculous am't of money, you can replace that piece, too.