Can't see the pictures that you posted. But, I think that I would call the bank in the morning and stop payment on the check before they have a chance to cash it, perhaps. And then after that call, I would call the installers and let them know the issues you've found and that you've stopped payment on the check until it gets resolved to your satisfaction.

1) stop the check 2) take lots of pictures and send them via email with your issues detailed to document what you need to communicate and get it sent ASAP.
IF they do not respond or are not willing to work with you, then I believe there is the contractors board, better business bureau and other resources for filing complaints. GOOD LUCK.

Thanks for stop payment advice. Believe it or not, I actually hadn't thought of that yet.

This post was edited by cssimmons on Tue, May 6, 14 at 1:02

I am also a no boat rocking kind of person, so I understand how and why you feel the way you do. I have also learned that this invites people to use me as a doormat. I hope that you get your issuea with the installer resolved, because they obviously did not do a good job.

I also hope this will help you gain the confidence to stand up for yourself in similar situations in the future. I hope I do not come off as judgmental that is not my intention. Only to encourage a fellow meek-natured person. It is insanely easy for me to tell others to demand satisfaction and ridiculously difficult to do so on my own behalf.

"After installers left I discovered, 1) overhang on the long side of our galley varies from 1.5" on the ends to only 1" in the center (the installer said something about having to remove the shims the cabinet installer had placed, so I�m wondering if this caused the issue). 2) A large triangular piece appears to have broken off the seamed piece, and they grafted back on before they brought it to our house. 3) The height of the seamed piece is different than the long run."

cssimmons:

It is possible that the cabinets were installed improperly, causing the overhang discrepancy, but based on the other information and pictures, I think these guys are clueless idiots.

You need to hire an independent fabricator/consultant to keep an eye on any remediation they attempt. (Mods, I am not applying for the job.) It will be money well-spent.

While Trebruchet might be right, give your installer/fabricator a chance to resolve it. We've seen so many similar situations on GW & most of them get resolved by the original installer. I've said his before, but there must be people out there that don't speak up & accept this kind of work.
I'd be very tempted to stop payment on check if you think they won't fix it.
You could call him & tell him that you'll wriite him another check once everything is to your satisfaction.

You have to stop the check right now, if you plan to go that route. They've probably cashed it already!

There are definitely problems with that install - the triangular "fill" piece being the most egregious. Did they think you wouldn't notice? (well, I guess they were sort of right, you didn't notice at first. Call and complain NOW. I know its easier said than done, but you have no choice!)

Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement. We've stopped payment on the check and are waiting a return call from them. I really do hate this sort of thing (is there anything worse than a bunch of tradesmen standing around staring at you like, "Okay uptight lady, is it good enough now or are you gonna keep picking it apart?"

As I said, neither my husband nor I are very confrontational, but we are going to insist the counters be fixed. Just frustrating that so many "professionals" try to slide by with the lowest possible standards.

as my grandfather always said, if they're giving it to you for free, then you have no say in the matter. if you're paying, you get it the way you want it.

Some professionals do want to make things right for you. I ran an errand while my flooring guy finished grouting our kitchen. When I returned, he was gone - and the grout job was terrible. I called the store, he came back within an hour, and did the job right. He was very apologetic, said "I don't know what happened - this looks awful!". When he was done, he asked me to inspect the job, to make sure I was happy, and he was not offended when I got down on my hands and knees and overlooked the work. I would use him again.

Good luck.

I am going through something very similar and totally empathize with you. It has been very traumatic and heartbreaking. My fabricator came out and said he could fix all of my issues. His installers removed my island last Thursday to repair a chip properly and square up the uneven sink reveal. It was supposed to be reinstalled last Saturday and the perimeter issues (seam chip, large overhang variance, and 3/8 gap at wall) fixed as well. The owner was very apologetic and said he would fix all Issues. I was quite satisfied that I would soon have a kitchen, though I was nervous with the island going back. He told me he purchased another slab from my lot just in case, so I thought if all attempts failed he would redo the island.

Saturday morning arrives and magine my shock when I get a call from him letting me know that he does not have the capability to smoothly and evenly do a cutout for my sink (he even uses a CNC machine), and that my island was now worse. He said if he attempted on the new slab it would be no better than the first attempt. He said he would not be able to meet my expectations and would pick up my perimeter slabs and give me a full refund! But, I want my marble! I was devastated! We are more than 6 months without a kitchen and I cannot start this process over and wait another month. I thought and searched the entire weekend and decided we would DIY a walnut island and keep the perimeter marble. The owner is refunding me for the island and an additional deduct to repair the perimeter. It's not perfect, nor at all what I expected, but I have to make the best of this difficult situation.

I've come to the conclusion that it is very difficult to find good craftsmen. When the installers came to pick up the island they asked what's wrong with it. When I pointed out the problems they looked at me with disbelief and the tone changed tremendously and you could cut the tension with a knife. They saw nothing wrong with the install. I hate this sort of thing also and it has been a very tense couple of weeks. I hope you have a better outcome!

"is there anything worse than a bunch of tradesmen standing around staring at you like, "Okay uptight lady, is it good enough now or are you gonna keep picking it apart?""

no. we need to learn to be the ones who challenge them back! say 'yes I'm going over it with a fine tooth comb - make yourself comfy cause it'll take me some time.'

If married you can always delay the 'acceptance' of their work because your spouse also will need to inspect it.

Cssimmons and bbtrix, I'm so sorry to read about your woes! Stone counters cost a bundle...it is sad to read about so many problems with them. My install is in two weeks and I'm already stressed. I hope this all get resolved to your satisfaction.

"Some professionals do want to make things right for you."

If that was truly the case here, they would not have installed that countertop with that glaring triangular piece. The real professionals take pride in their work and are as appalled with poor quality work as we are.

"we need to learn to be the ones who challenge them back! say 'yes I'm going over it with a fine tooth comb - make yourself comfy cause it'll take me some time.'

Excellent advice! Installers don't like you hovering over them while they are working, so I see nothing wrong with saying, "Please wait outside while I look things over."

bbtrix, out of curiosity, if the original installer could not repair your perimeter countertops, will someone else be able to repair them? Personally, I would have taken that full refund and run with it.

"If married you can always delay the 'acceptance' of their work because your spouse also will need to inspect it."

desertsteph, the contract my very well state that payment is due as soon as the work is completed. If additional time is needed for a spouse to inspect the work, request that ahead of time before the installers arrive.

jellytoast, the worst of the issue is the 3/8 inch gap at the wall in the corner which will make tiling difficult. I'm pretty confident that we can fix it so that no one will notice. Just more time and money. We could have someone yank it, scribe the wall, and reinstall it but I don't think it's worth the effort.

If I took the refund I would not be able to wait for marble and another fabricator to schedule. I had to wait six weeks for this one. My husbands patience is gone.

Bbtrix-I'm so sorry this has turned into such a disaster. I hope you are at least getting a generous discount on the perimeter counters. I know it's not what you originally wanted but the walnut will be really pretty with the white marble perimeters.

" the installer had already complained that he wasn't going to make any money on our job and was behind schedule because of needing a new seam piece"

All that was YOUR fault? Is he in business to please you or himself?

He's in business to make a living. If he displeases a lot of customers, he won't have any, and making that living will be very difficult.

"I've come to the conclusion that it is very difficult to find good craftsmen."

I've come to the conclusion that it is very difficult to find customers willing to pay the cost of good craftsmanship.

I wish it was as simple as $$$=quality. Sometimes tradespeople around here just pick a really high number out of their butt when they don't feel like doing the work and smirk when they actually get the contract. Not saying that would apply to you Trebuchet, but you must know that happens.

Cssimmons, I'm sure you *really* care about your kitchen and didn't just pick a fabricator based on price.

I don't care if they did buy based on price, this looks horrible! No one would actually pay for a broken counter top, that is completely unacceptable! I hope you get this mess straightened out! I would be beyond livid if this happened to me! Good luck with it!

Believe it or not Treb, we chose him because he came recommended from our cabinet guy, not because he was cheapest.

So, as an update I stopped check and let installer know we're not satisfied with work and not paying until its fixed. He went BALLISTIC--told us it was illegal to stop a check like that and he can report us. Said he would straighten out patched in piece (though he didn't offer any explanation for dishonestly patching it in in the first place). But said its cabinet installer's fault that the overhang varies by half an inch and no one would notice it AND if he pulls countertop up for adjustments now and it breaks, he's not going to be responsible for it.

Any thoughts on what I can do here?

Check to see if he's right about the cabinet - is the counter a uniform distance from the wall? It seems a stretch - if the cabinets were that much out of square, I would think it would be noticed when the installers tried to adjust the drawers. Even if that was the case - isn't that something that should have been noticed during templating?

He's wrong about no one noticing the varying overhang- YOU noticed.

To whom will he report you for stopping payment? I believe you told him he would be paid when the work was done to your satisfaction.

I hope he is more helpful now that he got his outburst out of his system.

Be careful that he doesn't try to put a lien on your house.

In some states it is considered larceny by check to receive the goods then stop payment....I would recommend that you send them a email and certified letter stating that they did not perform per the contract and that you have stopped payment on the check

"Any thoughts on what I can do here?"

I agree with ajc71 about sending both an email and a certified letter. I would put all my communications in writing at this point. Take pictures, document everything. Chances are you won't need them, but just in case. Let him know that you have every intention of paying him as soon as the job is completed in a satisfactory manner.

He should not have gone ballistic ... that's very unprofessional. If there was a problem with cabinets and the overhang, it should have been brought to your attention while the installers were still there. There is no excuse for the installers putting in that piece with the broken corner. It shouldn't have been installed like that in the first place, so if he breaks it getting it out, why should it be your problem?

"He went BALLISTIC--told us it was illegal to stop a check like that and he can report us."

Apparently his legal skills are as good as his fabrication skills. Who's he going to report you to, his mom?

"Said he would straighten out patched in piece (though he didn't offer any explanation for dishonestly patching it in in the first place)."

This I gotta see.

"But said its cabinet installer's fault that the overhang varies by half an inch and no one would notice it AND if he pulls countertop up for adjustments now and it breaks, he's not going to be responsible for it."

He could be partially right here, it could be the cabinet installer's fault the overhang is off, but he is obviously wrong about no one noticing.

Since he put the top in wrong (or the wrong top in), he most certainly will be responsible for any breakage when it is properly reinstalled.

Save the postage on the certified letter. Lien rights are a bit complicated and vary from state to state. He may have already forfeited his.

Even if he forfeited his lien rights (how so?), he could still seek remedy though the courts. Sending a certified letter is a small expense so why skip it? Nothing wrong with getting your ducks in a row.

Even if he forfeited his lien rights (how so?)

In most states you have to file what's called a "preliminary notice" when you start the job, informing the owner that liening the property is a possibility. However, at least in California that obligation doesn't apply where you contract directly - only to subcontractors.

He will probably go to the police station to try and make it criminal that the check was stopped....and depending where you are the may tell him that this is a civil case and that there is nothing they can do

I can't see how he could have forfeited his lien rights, I would imagine he is probably filing notice of contract within the next couple days (if not today)

If it does go civil then you will be getting served notice of contract, lien and lawsuit in no time

Again, if it were me as the customer I would fire off the email immediately saying that they did not perform per your specifications/contract and that the stone was damaged etc and that is why you stopped payment...Make sure that you note on the document that this letter is going out certified mail and then do send it out certified

Then you at least have stated your case if it does go legal..

In my opinion, the granite person should have been given a chance to fix the problems. Was there any indication that he had no intention of remediating the problem if he had known about it? Remember when he left your house he thought you were happy with the job since you signed off on the job and paid him. Now you have his granite, but he doesn't have anything in return. Or does he? Does he at least have a deposit from when you ordered the granite or was the job paid for in full at the end of the installation?

In Cali you don't have to file a preliminary lien notice right away. You have 20 days from the time you begin working on the job to do so. You can start and finish a job before filing a lien if it falls within that 20 days. If a subcontractor is contracting directly with a homeowner, he doesn't need to file a preliminary notice at all. He does if his contract is with a GC, but he still has the 20 days to do it.

I'm no expert, but lien laws were intended to offer protection and fast remedy to contractors who don't get paid by their customers. Not for contractors who do unacceptable and shoddy work and then insist on payment. If that were the case, it would be open season for unscrupulous contractors ... they could go into a client's home, completely hack up an installation, and then file a lien when they didn't get paid.

I would call my contractor's licensing board and ask for advice. Lien laws that apply to us may not apply to you. Again, he could still seek remedy through avenues other than a lien (civil court).

Chances are the guy has no intention of filing a lien at all. He just wants to get paid. Hopefully he will come out and complete the work in an acceptable fashion and get his paycheck. No need to expect the worst at this stage of the game, although someone "going ballistic" usually gets the mind headed in the "worst case scenario" direction.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Wed, May 7, 14 at 17:36

I'm no expert, but lien laws were intended to offer protection and fast remedy to contractors who don't get paid by their customers. Not for contractors who do unacceptable and shoddy work and then insist on payment. If that were the case, it would be open season for unscrupulous contractors ... they could go into a client's home, completely hack up an installation, and then file a lien when they didn't get paid.

True - but the homeowner still has to fight the fight (as to whether the money is owed or not) whether or not a lien is filed. The difference is in the procedure. If a lien is properly noticed and filed, then the homeowner has to go to court to get it expunged, but to get it expunged, the homeowner first has to prove the money isn't owed because the contract was breached (defective work). If a lien isn't properly noticed and filed, and the homeowner doesn't pay, then the contractor has to sue the homeowner for the money, and the homeowner defends the claim on the basis that the money isn't owned because the contract was breached (defective work). It's complicated and messy, but really doesn't affect the homeowner who will 1) ultimately win if the case can be proved, and 2) isn't selling or financing (if they are, the lien can royally screw it up).

At this point, they have been paid half. The stopped check was for the second half. To be honest, I wouldn't have gone stopped check option if I hadn't noticed the grafted in triangular piece without telling me. The rest could have been difference of opinion on what was acceptable work, but that...well it seemed dishonest.

I've talked to cabinet place now and they are saying the counter must have been templated wrong, that the cabinets were shimmed to take into account a crooked wall and that counter should have been templated to how cabinets placed. They also said that if counter templater/installer found the cabinet installation unacceptable, they should have spoken up before installing counter, which makes sense to me.

It was definitely not nice of him to not point out the triangular piece. However, he didn't exactly hide it either. It was there for you to see and that is what he will argue. That you looked over the countertop and didn't say anything about the triangular piece and by not saying anything, you gave your tacit approval. It's great that the cabinet place is on your side, but I assume they had nothing to do with making arrangements for getting the countertop done. Maybe the cabinet place can run interference for you in dealing with this fellow. He certainly doesn't want to annoy a company that is in a position to recommend him and give him business, right? It's really in his best interest to make it right. I really wish you the best of luck. I have been in this position myself and it's not fun.

This is crazy! What kind of a reputable company would put in a cracked counter top and act like that was OK? I would definitely report him to the BBB! He's ballistic? If that were me, he'd know what ballistic was! I'd be ballistic! As far as I'm concerned, a cracked counter top is worth exactly SQUAT! It should have gone into the garbage!

Depending on how much hardball it seems that this guy wants to play, I would make these my steps:

I would for sure send a certified letter to him explaining the issues and that you will be more than happy to pay the balance when the work is completed to your satisfaction, which is in a way that an average, reasonable person would expect the work to be done. Big chips are for sure not the way that an average, reasonable person would expect their new counter to be installed.

If you need to have telephone conversations with him, I would do it through your cell phone (which is hopefully a smart phone and download an app that will allow you to record phone calls). Now, this is IMPORTANT: if you DO record any conversation, you need to make certain that he knows that he is being recorded and get consent for that (though this would seem obvious, if you don't turn on a recording until after he consents, then you wouldn't have this as part of the recording...the consent needs to be recorded as well). If he won't consent, then tell him that you wish the rest of the correspondence in writing (either via email or mailed letters) so that it is easier to keep everything straight.

I hope that it all works out for you.

OT: andreak100, thanks so much for the tip about the importance of recording phone call and the protocol for getting consent. I'm downloading an app for my iPhone at this very moment.

It's not just protocol - it's the law (in some places). That said, it's not required in other places (New York for example, requires only one party to a conversation to consent, whereas in California both parties have to consent).

Wow. I read this thread because I need to choose countertops for two (2!) kitchens and I'm not having a great time doing it. However, your mishaps remind me of a few I've had having nothing to do with kitchens.

First things first:

1) Find out what your state law is re: recording telephone calls. In AZ, only one party (that would be you) needs to know. If he doesn't need to know, there's no need to tell him.

2) Unless you are an attorney, do NOT send registered letters outlining your complaint. You may inadvertently damage your own case by saying something that can be used against you.

3) He must be a licensed contractor, in which case you need to take your complaint directly to the Corporation Commission (or equivalent) in your state.

4) Your BBB will be of little help. They'll record your complaint, but I wouldn't expect them to get your money back or resolve your problem.

5) Stand your ground!

I went through hell trying to get stairs made in my house. Granted, it was a difficult spot and required some nth degree design and measurements. Each of three contractors (that's 3!!) guaranteed he could do the job. (Actually, I forgot the first; he was - unbeknownst to us - an alcoholic who fell off the wagon before he even got started!)

Not one got the stairs fabricated correctly. And not one got to keep a red cent I had paid. I made the first two keep their shoddy work and return ALL my money. (See #5.)

I am stuck with the last sorry job because the poser (he was using someone else's license) was too afraid I would sue him if he came back to remove his 'stairs' and damaged my house. The Corporation Commission was instrumental in helping me on this case.

So... I can get from the first to the second floor, but I am so chary now of contractors, I'm reluctant to hire another one in the hope of getting it right.

Don't give an inch; you'll be surprised at the backbone you can find when you realize you're being bullied and you're right and he's wrong. I cannot imagine paying for marble and getting a patched piece!! Well, I can; see story above.

Sadder and wiser in AZ. Sic 'em!