Just a few thoughts from a tired lady who has just spent the last 3 hours turning her own layout inside out!

First, let me qualify my advice...I am not the best at layouts and let me tell you, I *adore* counter space as much as the next person (recently I had two long peninsulas in my layout...people think I'm nuts, but I love the idea of long stretches of counter space).

Anyway -- I think your fridge is going to cause you a lot of grief out in the hallway. It might seem like the only solution now to put it there, but think about how many times a day you open the fridge for just a few secs to grab something. Without much thought (it's 3 a.m.), here are a few ideas. Put a 36" CD fridge on the right hand wall of the kitchen. Maybe move the sink and DW down a bit toward the range. Move the island a tad closer to the range (you've got plenty of room now) and maybe make it a little deeper (six inches?), if you're not going to have stools. Perhaps some deeper counter space would be good, instead of just long stretches. You could add 6" deep shelves or cabinets on the walk-by side of the island. There was a great thread a while back here on all kinds of uses for a 6" cabinet.

You can use that nook out in the hall for a step-in pantry lined w/ shallow shelves; plan to keep the immediate necessities that you use every day right in the kitchen (e.g. oils, flour, sugar, spices, bread, peanut butter, cereal, chocolate, etc.), but keep the rest in the pantry, along w/ brooms, paper products, etc.

Your dining room and living room are huge, lucky you. What is that funny nook in the LR near where the water heater is? Is the wall between new kit and LR really that thick? Any chance you could recess a standard depth fridge into that wall so that it looks like CD on the kitchen side?

Good luck -- can't wait to see how it comes out!

I don't know if this idea was run by you in your previous post... I didn't get much sleep and just couldn't focus on reading through the entire thing. Could you: extend the south kitchen wall/entrance to the beginning of frig niche wall and make the entrance into the control room from the dining room. The frig niche could be a walk in pantry. Move the bathroom down toward the living room wall so the kitchen would be more dining room friendly? I am assuming it's a guest bathroom for the 2nd bedroom. It might be weird having the bathroom so far from the bedrooom. Even if you don't move the bathroom you'd gain about 2 1/2 feet of wall space by moving he entrance into the control room. I had another thought about the entrance into the stairway going downstairs but wasn't sure that that niche between the water heater and stair landing was. Just some sleepy thoughts for you!

Somehow, these new drawings have crystalized what I've thought before while looking at your design. I am not widely known for tact, so you might want to quit reading now.

You are taking your kitchen and placing it in the circulation pathway of your public areas to end up with slightly more counter edge than you already have. It might have more storage space and it might not (would have to calculate square inches of shelf and drawer space and the collection of stuff in your existing kitchen). It might be more comfortable for a bit not to be hemmed in as much as in that tiny "U", but it isn't much more usable space.

I think putting the kitchen in the main pathway will create more problems that it will solve in the end - partly because the temptation to place stuff on the "hallway" wall will be overwhelming the minute you run out of space. When you have guests, the walk-thru will be completely stuffed with people.

The attached is way, way beyond what you were asking.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1884139}}

I, too, don't like where your fridge is in either plan but like the idea of using that space for a pantry, Using your second plan, what about putting cooktop in island and fridge where cooktop is located?

Thank you everyone for your input so far!

scootermom, I'm undecided about deep counters. It had been mentioned on the other post and I go back and forth on it. I'm fairly short, so I don't even use the whole depth of the standard counter...maybe if it was lower. I typically use my chest freezer as counter now. It's only 31" high and 21" deep. I do use the whole 21", but with our 36" high counter I only use the first 15". I'll see what it looks like though to put a fridge on the right wall and have deeper counters. It might work, but I don't know if we can make the island deeper.

What should the aisles be between an island and the rest of the kitchen?

We do love having a large living and dining room. we had thought for a while about switching the dining room into the new kitchen, but the room's about a foot shorter which means fewer people fit at the table.

The nook in the LR is a closet, but the wall between those rooms (the really thick one) is actually two exterior walls for our old house and the addition we recently added. Can't cut into it. We do plan to use it as a pantry to get some of the big serving pieces and less-used appliances out of the kitchen area.

remodelfla Is this what you're thinking of? Would it still be bad to have the fridge in that nook?

bmorepanic Sorry to hear it's that bad; I appreciate your input. Our original goal in moving the kitchen was not to get a little more counter space (or any more space at all), but rather to gain a bedroom (which we hope to rent) instead of a really big hallway and to have the kitchen more centrally located in the house. Yes, it would be in the circulation pathway of our public areas, but that's kinda the point--it's more accessible to the whole house. Would having an island in there help or hurt the flow of traffic issues? I can see your point about the temptation to dump things on the "hallway" wall, but we also have that temptation on our 10' dining table and the 8' buffet next to it. :)

That said, I appreciate your willingness to tweak the design. It helps to see other people's ideas. Moving the studio isn't really an option, 'Chung has pretty specific space requirements in order to fit all of his recording equipment (and the room it's in is bare minimum). I'm not sure what the "keeping" or "reception" are? But I don't see a living room on the plan, maybe one of those is the LR? We had at one point considered splitting the livingroom to make a bedroom (we'd also considered making it a really spacious kitchen...that would be nice), but where to put the couches? We could also just remodel the current kitchen...leave it where it is and try to make it more efficient...but then we have the room that's a hallway. I guess we could put a wall up and make it a small bedroom.

farmhousebound We had planned to use a slide-in range, but I think if we can do an island large enough to fit a cooktop with reasonable aisle, it'd be a great option. Let me try that next.

Oh my goodness -- if you're going to have a renter, I would keep the bathroom right next door to that bedroom. You might not want to see the renter stumble down the hall in his/her skivvies first thing in the a.m. while you're having that first cup of coffee.

Too bad; I liked that last layout.

Whatever you do, I would still use that nook near the studio for a pantry.

How about if you move the studio to the current dining room? I don't know if it's just the angle, but the dining room appears to have more room. Also having an exterior door may be helpful if he has to haul any equipment in or out or if you have a several people coming and going. I can sympathize my DH is a musician with loads of equipment. DH's recording studio is in the garage (though stuff somehow makes it's way into the house, LOL) and it's really nice having musicians be able to come and go without household interruption.

I think you can keep a lot of the walls if you rearrange the rooms a bit. Put the dining room where the new kitchen is going and then put your kitchen in the studio area opened up to the dining room. With them open to each other you can have a good size kitchen and dining room sharing the through traffic. Then you could reconfigure the bathroom to allow a door to the new bedroom. I agree with scootermom keep the bathroom next to the bedroom.

Actually, I don't think and island cooktop would work. It'd be difficult to vent it. Maybe we could do the sink on the island, but I'm not even sure we have room for a permanent island.

It would be better to keep the bathroom next to the bedroom, but not necessarily essential. I think I like that plan with the bathroom next to the livingroom a lot so far. We're pretty picky with renters, so it wouldn't just be a random person off the street. More likely it'd be a friend or acquaintance. We've always had good renters and try to be involved in eachother's lives. We're also thinking about possibly having kids someday. If we do, we'd probably sleep in that downstairs bedroom and put kids upstairs.

mom2lilenj I like to be able to close the door to the studio (and am not sure I want it to be the first thing you see when you walk in the house). Also, our 10' table would be too big for the room that's labeled "new kitchen". We don't really want the dining room to be open to the kitchen. Its nice to have them close, but looking at dirty pots and pans while eating doesn't help me to enjoy my meals.

Thanks for the input so far. It's extremely helpful to try new things.

if you plan on making that bedroom into either a rental or a master, you're nuts to move the bathroom that far away. wouldn't you want your privacy? having an on'suite (SPELLED wrong) will add to your house value...having a random bathroom floating between a kitchen and won't. I'd actually turn that little closet into a powderroom, and allow private access to the other bath to that room. then remove the wall between the kitchen and dining room and have an eat in kitchen.

the fridge in that space is a disaster...storage, powderroom...yes, but not a fridge.

Yes rahime, that's what I meant. But that was before I knew the bedroom was meant for a renter. I'd move the bath back to where it was but still change the entrance to the music room if you can. It'll give you over 32" of additional space. And in the world of kitchens... that can be invaluable.

I understand how very appreciative you are of all the input. I just today finalized a kitchen layout with the help of forum members. I went through 37 changes before they, (not I) came up with the perfect one for my husband and I. Don't give up or get discouraged. Keep giving input on what works for you and what doesn't and why. That helps others see things through your eyes. Be vigilant, and you'll get there. Promise!

Hi, Rahime. I love that picture of your kitchen after a meal for 50. I don't care how large my kitchen could be, it'd still look like that after I took on that job, but I have a sneaking suspicion the food wouldn't be as good.

I really like your top plan overall but agree that moving the studio door out of the kitchen is, on this side of my screen at least, an excellent idea.

Now, for another this-side-of-screen idea--if it wasn't already suggested, how about switching the refrigerator to where the wall oven is and the wall oven to the fridge nook? Although food is hot coming out of the oven and that's a negative, it's usually opened a lot less frequently than the fridge, requiring a lot fewer trips back and forth across the traffic aisle.

And, to make up for not having that island, how about a mobile island cart tucked in below the oven? It could be rolled out whereever needed for extra workspace and be pushed out of the way of traffic when needed. It could have a fold-up side for yet more workspace, and your husband could work at it facing friends and family when he wanted.

Considering what you're trying to accomplish, I think the frig location you'd like could work. Someone could get up and grab a drink from the dining room with out walking through the entire kitchen. You're close enough to your cooktop and your cooktop is steps away from your sink if you like to cook and cleanup as you go. I would add either an small pantry with pull-outs or lower cabs with drawers and uppers (depending on what look you prefer) next to the frig on the door space you closed up. Next to that you can put the rolling foldup island that rosie suggested. What could be nice about that is you can open up the drop leaves, place food on it, and roll it into the dining room to serve. When not in use, you can keep is closed, open up both sides for prep space, or even turn it and open one side to enjoy coffee and a snack when you dont 'feel like using the dining room. Here's just one thing I found that I think rosie was referring to.

Here is a link that might be useful: rolling island

Rosie, you're right, it'll probably look like that regardless of the kitchen's size after cooking that large of a meal. It was good though: salmon, tortellini with lemon-artichoke pesto, rosted garlic green beans. I'd really like to pull something out of the oven and have somewhere to set it while I trasnsfer to serving dishes.

I like the idea of the rolling island. I'd thought about switching the wall oven and frige in the first picure, but wouldn't you need to have counter near the oven to put things that're coming out of the oven? It would be used less often than the fridge, so that's a plus. I was hoping to have some drawers for dish storage in the kitchen, which doesn't seem possible with a frige, range and dishwasher/sink all in the kitchen.

You'll have plenty of room for dish storage against the wall next to the frig. You should have space for about 5 1/2 foot run while still leaving room for the door going out to the living room. That's what I meant by lower cabs. You could make part of that run the rolling island.

Looking at the new layout you originally proposed in this thread (the second picture fron the very top), the fridge location would be a big mistake. Are you open to having a range instead of a wall oven? In a tight space, that gain you more counterspace.

If you chose a range, you could put the fridge on the wall formerly housing the wall ovens, and you could store a mobile rolling island against the wall that borders the studio, or roll it our wherever you liked when in use.

Oh, remodelfla, I didn't see your post right after Rosie's. I think that could work. We have a kitchen cart now like the one you posted. We don't move it anywhere now, but having the drop leaf is wonderful when we need a little extra space.

DH just got home and mentioned maybe we can do a counter that pulls out or opens up like that along that wall. Not sure if it'd be too in the walkway, but it's definitely worth exploring because we really don't need all that much on a day-to-day basis and it'd make a great place to serve from when we're doing a big, buffet-style dinner or a party.

Physically speaking the fridge would be just as close to the cooktop in the "hallway" closet as it would be if it were against the wall next to the stairway, and you're right, it would be more convenient from the dining room.

alku05, why do you think it would be a big mistake?

We are planning to have a range not a cooktop...I know the picture being 2D doesn't make that clear, but I'm not sure I see how that would gain counterspace.

Rahime, I think Alku05 is referring to where you have 'wall oven/ baking counter' labeled on the drawing. I was confused about that, too, until I decided that you were probably thinking of using a wall oven installed beneath the counter?

Ahhh, good call ci_lantro! I didn't realize the oven was being planned as an undercounter placement.

Hi Rahime, yum, that lemon-artichoke pesto sounds delish!

RE: the fridge. Distance is just one reason why I think the fridge would be poorly located in the alcove next to the studio. That hallway is the major thoroughfare in your house. I just think it could be contentious to have to cross the hall when people (residents, guests, future children) are passing through at the same time. Also, there's no landing space there. What about when you're carrying a big platter of something, or a very full container of something, two-handed, and you open the door to put it in, and discover that oops, you need to rearrange a few things before your load will fit? You won't be able to just set the item down, quickly rearrange, then pick it back up and put it in. I am in and out of my fridge a lot, and often, I have a container to fill, utensil to use, etc. Landing space just makes sense. Esp. if you'll have kids some day.

Also, even if the distance to the fridge is the same for both locations, it's more convenient to pass by the sink, countertop, island, etc. on your way to the fridge -- you're there using that stuff anyway. Without even realizing it, we perform so many little tasks in our kitchens on the way from one appliance to the other...throwing something in the trash, dropping something in the sink, etc. The fridge is so isolated that I really think you'll regret having it outside the core of your work area. OTOH, you'll burn a lot of calories making those trips!

Re: putting the wall oven in that niche...Hmmm...if you had the rollout cart underneath for landing or had an undercounter oven with some countertop over it, maybe, but w/ future kids or a houseful of guests, an oven might be a dangerous choice.
Also -- re: bathroom placement. If you are having kids someday, that's even a better reason to keep your bathroom private!! I love the idea of having the bathroom entry in the bedroom, and adding a powder room elsewhere (the hallway niche, perhaps, along with a couple feet stolen from where the studio door now swings open).

Agreeing with bmorepanic redesigned layout.

If this was my home the studio would be reclocated.
It's too close to the kitchen and the bedroom. I just couldn't live with all that noise! Also, if someone rents that bedroom, they may not be too happy with the noise from the kitchen and the studio.

Perhaps the living room could be converted into two rooms to accommodate the studio? This is a tough one.

alku05 yep, it was planned as an under counter. sorry I didn't make that clear.

scootermom you're right, landing space is a big issue there. I don't think we can squeeze in another bathroom...I'm not even sure the city would let us have another sewage location since they disallowed a previous one we wanted to put in...and that toilet's not just used by the bedroom, but by the whole downstairs. So, even if the bathroom stays where it is we probably won't open it directly to the bedroom.

robm_2007 Well, the noise from the studio is actually upstairs in the tracking room where the musicians play. It's well soundproofed, so even when a drummer is playing they don't disturb the rest of the house. The control room is pretty quiet as it is also well soundproofed and a lot is done through headphones. Frankly, someone who rents from us has to be comfortable with our lifestyle...it is our house after all. We're sensitive to their needs, but don't go tiptoeing around.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: the kitchen. I'll try to do another drawing later today and see how it turns out.

Thanks everyone for your opinions.

Ok, after hearing you're explainations, where you put things in your first drawing makes sense. A sound-proof room isn't exactly easy to move and I didn't realize the door off the dining room is you main entrance, I thought the living room door was. After all that, I like your first layout the best. However while the fridge location is close to the kitchen and dining room it seems ackward with all those doors and doorways around it. How about putting the fridge recessed in the studio wall and giving the closet space, where the fridge was going to go, to the studio? A wash with space, but a more accessible fridge.

mom2lilenj, I should have labeled the pic. better. :) Yes, soundproofing doesn't move easily (or cheaply). We had talked about trying to recess the fridge into the studio wall, but that would compromise the soundproofing.

Here's a rough sketch of the house plan with furniture in it. I just realized my long buffet in the dining room doesn't fit anymore with this new plan.

How about putting the oven in the island and the fridge where the oven was?

Then make the closet into a pantry.

do you think that would work without being too crowded?

I guess it depends on how you usually cook and bake. Maybe have it open to the back of the sink or toward the throughway. Or if you can get away with a 24" oven you could have it open toward the range (or is that a cooktop, I forget). If that is a range with a good sized oven maybe a 24" oven might be a good complement to it.

Another idea is if you can move the stairway doorway up that you could put the fridge and a baking counter along the studio wall. No room for an island though..

Here are some new possible plans, they're essentially the same in terms of placement of appliances and in each on the hall closet would be used as a kitchen pantry. I've also added a narrow 6-8" cabinet shelf on the hallway side of the kitchen wall. The first 2 have the range in the corner. We'd put a wall behind it and use the space behind it as a bathroom cupboard. I wasn't sure whether to inset the range or not.

Would 3' aisles be enough around an island?

This one's a little different, and I wasn't sure how best to draw it. I don't really like corner cabinets, so one corner would be blocked off on the lower, and the space would be a short bath cabinet. The counter would still go around the corner in the kitchen and we'd have uppers, so we'd only lose the lower. I was toying with the idea of angling the wall partly for access to that cupboard in the bath and partly to make the kitchen feel more open.

Does it make sense to lose that lower corner cabinet? I just couldn't think of what we'd put in it...we currently have our pots and pans on a lazy susan in our corner cupboard and hate it. DH wants to hang them on a potrack in the new kitchen. We're also losing the hall closet that's closest to the bathroom in these plans, so I'd like to have a little bathroom storage added back in. Not sure how helpful it'll be though 'cause it seems like it'd be awkward space.