If you are putting a sink on the island so that you can do the prep on the island then a trash should also be located under the island.
Most people work between their sink and their stove where you now have the dishwasher rather than the trash. The dishwasher when opened would impede working in that area, and the trash, which you will need, would not be conveniently located. Can the location of the trash and dishwasher along the wall be flipped?
The island is arranged such that the people who are seated look at the cook or out the window. The cook looks at the cabinetry. No one looks into the great room (or at the television that will presumably be there), is that as intended?

Two comments - If you lower the back of the island to table height, people will be staring at the back of the island 15" away, feeling like kindergartners at the big peoples' table. I personally would never sit there.

I'm all for prep sinks where they're needed, but a prep sink directly across the 40" aisle from the main sink is just a waste of money.

Practigal -- Thank you, I think you're right. The dishwasher should be placed to the left of the sink, as to not impede the prep area between sink and stove. Do you think the trash should be kept on the wall or should we move it to the island? As for the island seating, I don't see that there's a way we could have people facing the great room, though that would be nice.

Sjhockeyfan -- Thanks for your comments. Where do you think we should put a prep sink? I really want a second sink but can't seem to find the right place for it. Good point about the lowered island bar! I never thought it of that way, we will have to rethink that design.

Anyone have any thoughts on Plan 1 vs Plan 2 layout?

What is your reasoning for wanting the second sink?

If you went with Plan 2, you could put a prep sink on the stretch of counter between the fridge and pantry. My mother wanted a second sink for people to use while she was cooking instead of the main sink, where a random person would get massively in the way of cooking efforts. So now if you want to wash an apple or rinse off a dish or something minor while cooking is happening, you get directed to the second sink where you won't be in the way.

The placement I just suggested would work that way for you too. But it wouldn't work as well if you want a prep sink for prepping.

I definitely want a prep sink for prepping! It would also serve as second sink for guests when necessary. Do you think the prep sink would work better at the end of the island closer to the great room? I've never had a island before... do most people end up prepping on the counter between the stove and main sink even when they have an island?

What are your feelings on extending the right wall a few feet and adding another window?

The main impetus of this was finding a good place for the prep sink, namely a place where it's natural to go between prepping at the sink and the stove, a place where it's not right next to the main sink, and a place where none of these things are back-to-back.

The additional benefits of this layout are:

1) easier venting of the range hood to the outside
2) the ability to look out the window while prepping in your main prep zone
3) a wider walkway in the main prep/cooking zone (I'd make this even wider, but I wasn't sure if if you'd mind the island getting more narrow.)
4) more light
5) more seating

Jilius -- thank you for your redesign! I'm floored by your helpfulness. Unfortunately we can't extend the right wall at all because at the point where the wall ends in our diagram it starts to curve outward. I like your idea though...it would be so nice to have a main prep area facing the window.

I think that you should have a trash receptacle by your prep area if you have two prep areas you may need two receptacles. What exactly you decide to do will also depend upon whether you mulch or are required to separate trash for recycling in your area.
Jilius is amazing. She has wonderful ideas. Her point about the use of two sinks not interfering with each other is really well taken.
I also think that sjhockeyfan's point is really important. I have been in a kitchen where part of the island was table height but the rest of the island was kitchen counter height, my impression was that it felt like a sushi bar and gave the kitchen a commercial oriental flavor at odds with rest of the decor.
I know that islands are really popular right now but it just feels like no one will end up using it because it doesn't face into the entertainment center that I would imagine will be in the great room. Also I would map the furniture you're intending to put in the great room as the stools at the end of the island may be bumping against the sofa or chairs is in the great room. You may be better off with a much smaller island and a table that faces into the great room or making the kitchen u shape by adding a peninsula and putting the stove in the peninsula so that when you're cooking on the stove you can watch the action.

Practigal, you are very nice. I've just been doing this instead of sudoku.

Eliasgrace, how do you feel about having your steam oven under counter and your microwave either in an upper or under counter?

This is a new option for getting you that prep sink in a natural placement. In general, the kitchen needs to be a bit longer to make a prep sink work, and since the window wall couldn't get longer, I flipped to the other wall. I used the opportunity to address some other things:

1) I'd been thinking that the walkways were a little tight.
2) It'd be nice if the doorway to the dining room were more open (you mentioned wanting this, and I agree).
3) I wasn't super-sold on the fridge placement; it'd be hard to get through the doorway if someone was standing in front of the fridge with the door open pondering options.
4) One window in the kitchen is not a whole lot of natural light.
5) Lastly, in both of the original layouts posted, your pantry was extremely deep, which isn't actually that helpful because items get lost in the back. Unless you have a walk-in, a long row of 15-18" deep cabinets is actually more functional for pantry storage.

In this version, you get that prep sink in a handy place, there is a wall of windows (floor-to-ceiling!), you can look out the windows while prepping on the island, all the areas a body would move through are quite roomy, you get 60" of pantry storage, and there's even a possible third prep area that can access the prep sink and the stove without getting in any other work zone's way.

Of course, you lose the window over the sink (I was thinking you could hang art above it instead?), the steam oven and microwave would need to go under counter (or in an upper) and venting the hood is going to be tricky -- perhaps it's easier through the garage?

Wow, Jilius that last post was great! Great out of the box thinking.

Jilius and Practigal, thank you!! I've never been a part of an online community and I am so amazed at your helpfulness and willingness to walk through this confusing process with us. Never done renovations before and am petrified!

Practigal (and Sjhockeyfan) I'm with you -- I think the lowered bar seating is out! Will consider two receptacles too. As for the island seating -- the great room extends pretty far to the right of the kitchen. So island seating with Plan 1 and Plan 2 layout at least seats people in the direction of the great room? With the current size island, we have space for a long kitchen table (perpendicular to the island) that faces the great room.

Jilius you are quite the creative one! Thanks again for the work and thought you put into redesign #2. Are you a kitchen designer by trade? There are so many things I love about your latest sketch!!! I think when it comes down to it though, I really want to have my main sink facing the window if at all possible. But floor to ceiling windows? What a dream.

Jilius, do you think a deeper pantry is a problem even when you have pull-out drawers (plan 1). If we still stuck with plan 2, do you think we should extend the pantry out to make it flush with the rest of the cabinets and make it a walk-in pantry? I agree with you about fridge placement...maybe too awkward of an area to put there by the entryway to the mudroom.

Another question I'm mulling over is how much clearance is necessary between the end of the island and a kitchen table. I want to make the island longer but afraid it will eat into the kitchen table space.

Jilius, I'm going to think seriously about your latest sketch...maybe I can give up the window by the sink.

Thanks in advance for continued input!!!! So grateful.

Thank you, everyone! This is pretty much the nicest thread ever.

I am not a kitchen designer -- I just grew up baking regularly in a small kitchen and have given a lot of thought to this. I like messing around with floor plans, but heaven help me when it comes to choosing paint colors and tile and stuff. I'm utterly hopeless there. (It will be a miracle if our kitchen ever has a backsplash.)

Re: pantries

If we are talking about this style of pull-outs,

I certainly think that's better than static deep shelves, but it's difficult to see and grab in the highest 2-3 pull-out shelves. I also don't like that you're always looking at the tops of cans and boxes rather than the labels. And stacked things tend to shift and fall as you pull the trays in and out, and it's SUPER annoying for small appliance storage, particularly if it's in the back. Lifting something kinda heavy over other stuff into the back of a shelf with the cords and junk catching on everything and other stuff having fallen where the cuisinart (or whatever) used to be is a real pain.

I think this style (above) is much easier to see everything, but it's a little cumbersome to get items in and out and also not good for storing small appliances or lesser-used dishes or a scale or whatever other non-food items you might want.

So if you can do it, whether you have a row of shallow cabinets, or you create a walk-in pantry with shallow shelves, that is my preference. Easiest to see everything, easiest to get things in an out.

If you go with plan 2 and create a walk-in pantry there as you suggested (which I think is a great idea), I'd annex the space where you have 10 inch shelves next to it as well so you have space inside the pantry for shelves on both sides and the back. In its current width, you could only have shelves on the back and one side.

Re: losing the window above the kitchen sink

That loss really gave me pause too. I am Ms. Windows, as I am sure you can tell because I keep adding them. My pinterest page is full of kitchens that look more like greenhouses. When we were house shopping, there were places I walked two steps into and immediately turned around and left because they were too dark. My husband thought I was nuts, but no feature in those houses could possibly have made up for the lack of natural light. A friend of mine is a grad student and lives in a rented place with 3 boys, and their kitchen has a layout so jumbled and awful and cramped that makes me twitch just to see it, but that kitchen has these beautiful, interesting, big windows, and a balcony with more windows, and it's on the second floor surrounded by trees on all sides. Being in that kitchen is like standing in a sunlit treehouse. It's the most humble kitchen, in ramshackle grad school housing, and yet it's so lovely and pleasant to be in because of the windows.

That's a long way to say that I feel you about losing a window above the sink. However, I personally would lose it in favor of the the floor-to-ceiling windows because I think in the other iterations, you'd enjoy the window and light only while at the sink, whereas in this one, the windows would be such a feature that you'd be enjoying the light and view during most of your activities anywhere in the kitchen.

Also,

1) The kitchen would feel huge with a general feeling of light and openness everywhere since essentially one wall of the kitchen wouldn't exist anymore.

2) I'd install a larger prep sink than maybe you intended since you have plenty of space in that big island and I'd predict my favorite spot to work would be at the island looking out the windows. So rather than having a main sink used for almost everything with the prep sink used for a few things when there is work overflow, there'd be a shift in function where the main sink would be used just for clean-up, and the prep sink used during all my other activities in the kitchen. So for at least 50% of my sink and sink-adjacent activities, I'd be at the prep sink looking out a window.

3) When cleaning up, you'd still get to face a window as you turn to load the dishwasher.

In my mind, the lack of window at the main sink mainly affects the drudgery of hand-washing dishes -- you'd need the big sink, you'd not be turning in any direction, and it takes forever. But I confess I avoid hand-washing as much as possible anyway. Everything I own goes in the dishwasher except cutting boards.

Re: kitchen table

Are you sure you need a kitchen table? Between the seating at the island and the dining room right there, it seems as if you already have plenty of seating. In what situation do you envision someone wanting to sit at the kitchen table instead of the other two spots?

This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Sep 23, 14 at 13:58

I have a cook top in a 63" wide island and I'm moving it to the perimeter, too. I hate how little space I have on both sides of my cook top. And the lousy venting.

Is the kitchen table below the island in the Great Room area? If so, then you should aim for 60" between island and table so that you have wide enough aisles to walk between people seated at both island and table. You can get by with perhaps a few inches less but I wouldn't go less than that. Your kitchen is large; don't cheat on the aisle clearances.

If you only have seating on one side, 44" is a sufficient aisle width. If it's not a main aisle - if the only traffic is to get to the chair - you can shrink that to 36" or even a bit less.

There is a growing trend to move to all counter seating and to eliminate a kitchen table but given that your dining room is a separate space, I caution you to think carefully before doing that. It's easy for young people to sit at the counter, not so great for the very young or older people. It can actually be a fall hazard for older people.

I think your Plan 1 is quite good with a few modifications. I don't have time to draw it up but I will do so and post later.

Jilius, Lisa_a, thank you thank you for your responses! I hate to sound like a broken record, but I continue to be amazed by you guys. So thankful for this forum.

Jilius, I'm with you on windows and light everywhere. Your friend's sunlit treehouse of a kitchen sounds lovely! A couple of questions for you --
1) How do you feel about the island seating not facing either the great room or the windows. In your design the island seating faces the opposite way of the great room (since the great room extends way past the kitchen to the right)
2) I just realized I need a dishwasher close by to my main prep area. I am constantly putting things in the dishwasher (I am a 'clean as you go" type of cook) as I prep. Should I then take the main sink and dishwasher to the island if I want to keep the wall to ceiling windows?

As for the kitchen table, we definitely need one. We routinely have tons of people at our house (our extended family has 15 little kids, plus all the aunts/uncles, grandparents etc). We need as much seating as possible!

Lisa_a, -- yes, the kitchen table is below the island. It's not exactly in the great room (though that's how it looks in the sketch). There is still more kitchen square footage left before the great room (which is a step-down kind of space). I will have to measure and see how much space is available before the step down. I hope there is 60" of clearance, as you suggested! I would love to see your redesign of Plan 1 when you get a chance!!!

Jilius, thanks for your thoughts on the pantry. I see what you're saying about the drawers. It does sound annoying to only see the tops of things. My dream is to have a walk-in pantry. Can you look at Plan 2 again for me? If I make the pantry flush with the counters (on the current Plan 2 layout it is not flush), will it be deep enough to be walk-in?

I'll have to come back to give this more thought, but just quickly I had thought about moving the main sink to the island. You'd be able to look out the window while using it. I just thought it broke up the counter work space there too much. I also clean as I go, but I don't think quite the same way you do. I clear and rinse the dishes as I go and pile the the rinsed dishes on the counter above the dishwasher. Then I load the dishwasher all at once at the end. So I like having the pile of rinsed dishes in a part of the kitchen separate from the work zone (so they don't get dirty again or in my way). It's also nice if the cooking gets a little hectic, and I have to do a couple things quickly at once, to be able to drop a dish without rinsing it into the clean-up sink and have that be out of the way till I get a chance to start rinsing again.

I wasn't worried about the way the island seating faced. Since you have other places for people to engage in dining (the dining room, the kitchen table), the seating at the island just seemed like a place people would sit when they wanted to hang out and chat with the cook(s) without being in the way. And those seats face where the cook(s) would be. Seemed perfect to me.

I like the walk in pantry in sketch 2, but when I counted your squares, the pantry looked like 35 X60 inches which is plenty wide for 12 or 15 in deep shelves on either side and then 18 to 24 on the back wall. I prefer shallow shelves so things don't get lost. I too considered bringing your pantry forward by a foot or two depending on how your table and aisles work out. It might look nice if it lined up depth wise with the front of the upper cabinets.
It looks like you have a great space to work with.

Revision with walk-in pantry (well, stand-in pantry) and the main sink on the island. You'll now have both a view out the window and a view of the great room (and maybe of the TV?) as you use the sink (and prep).

The kitchen got two feet longer, but if I understood you correctly, that should be okay since you had extra room there.

Both walkways in the main kitchen work zones are currently 5' wide. That's the largest most people feel is comfortable, but some prefer 4'. You should mock it up and see what you like to have and then make the island wider or longer if you want to narrow either walkway. My guess is you'll want to keep 5' in front of the fridge, but maybe narrow the walkway between the stove and main sink.

I am not totally sold on where the fridge is. It's handy where it is placed, but I don't like that it would block the light to the prep sink counter.

Thank you Jilius! I definitely like this layout much better with the fridge by the mudroom instead of the dining room and the main sink facing the windows. DH has concerns about venting the range. Do you think this would be a potential problem? Also, he doesn't prefer that the island seats don't face the window or great room. I think we might have to work with one of our original layout...even though it's painful now to give up those windows!! DH and I are going to have to go to the house again (we are currently renting elsewhere) and get a better feel for the space.

If we did one of our original preposed layouts, what do you guys prefer? The walk-in pantry layout or the one where we wrap the counter (on the left wall) around toward the dining room? That was one of our main dilemmas. Does a wrapped counter look too forced? We are getting rid of the butler's pantry to open up the space a bit. On the other hand if we did the walk-in pantry on the left wall, wondering if there is too much continuous cabinetry. Thoughts?????

To me the last drawings give new meaning to the term "Fantasy Island" I would be so happy in such a kitchen... My only concern would be whether the work trying triangle is now too long (I'm not quite clear on the dimensions).

I love those windows!

Eliasgrace, you'd have to ask your contractor about venting options. It depends on ceiling height, joist direction, adjacent structures, etc. Since you have a garage on the other side of the wall where a vent might run straight across the ceiling without worry about aesthetic concerns, I see potential for there being no or little issue. Or if you are lucky, your joists will run parallel with the pocket door wall. It may be fine, or it may be a complete pain in the neck.

As for your husband, if you prefer this layout and venting for this configuration turns out to be possible, you might break down for him what you are gaining this way (a prep sink with good counter space and good relation to the other zones, no bottleneck in the walkway at the fridge, a walk-in pantry, a work zone that faces windows, those windows, a grand and central location for your huge cooktop with ample counter space on either side of it, etc.) versus what you are losing with the direction of the seating. And remind him that seating that faces the great room will be right there at the kitchen table too.

Does your husband cook? My husband is not a cook, so what matters to me in a kitchen doesn't occur to him. If your husband doesn't, it may be that the only part of the kitchen he ever intended to use was the chairs and so that's all he saw.

When we were designing our kitchen, my husband wanted an island come-hell-or-high-water. Even after I pointed out that having one would ruin our ability to ever seat more than six people (versus the 10-12 I could seat without it), that we'd lose the pantry, and that the only way we could orient an island in our small space meant anybody working at it (me) would be looking down the low-ceilinged hall, directly at the smallest, darkest corner of our apartment and unable to see people, windows, or the TV. Finally I asked him why he was so gung-ho about the island, and the reason turned out to be that he thought they were cool and seemed fancy. Hee! I love that boy, but we did not get an island.

I think with the original configuration of Plan 2, you could still have the walk-in pantry, but the prep sink just wouldn't make sense. If you elongated the island to end flush with the pantry, you could put a prep sink at the end if the island, but it'd be really quite far from the stove, so I don't know how handy that would be. You'd have to think through how you'd use that.

Maybe you could lose all the uppers on the sink wall in favor of windows?

And I don't entire know what to do about the fridge placement at that T-intersection. You could narrow the island a lot then to have larger walkways on both sides. Or honestly, I'd make the cook top a 30" one, put the fridge where the pocket door is and have the pocket door and the whole main walkway from the pocket door to the great room moved to where the leftmost counter/fridge/steam over/microwave is now, and switch the pantry to something smaller that wouldn't stick out into the new walk way.

Practigal, in the last drawing, I see sort of a mini work-triangle happening with the prep sink, so there is a tight formation there, but more so, I view the fridge as an optional part of the triangle. You don't actually want it that close to the busiest areas of a kitchen because people pondering life's mysteries while choosing a snack will get in your way when you're cooking. (Am I the only whose entire family does this one after another whenever I start cooking? Especially my dad -- he's been banned-for-life from the kitchen I don't know how many times.) Also, I think most people tend to visit the fridge/pantry only a couple times while cooking, pulling all ingredients out at once. I mean, you don't want the fridge crazy far away so those few visits are cumbersome, but I rarely prefer the fridge to be as close to the work zone as the traditional work triangle dictates.

This post was edited by Jillius on Wed, Sep 24, 14 at 3:02

I haven't read through this entire thread, sorry. But of all the layouts I've seen, I like your plan 2 best. Plan 1 is also nice, but I agree that that's a long stretch of cabinetry and doors.

I also agree with sjhockeyfan about the lowered island seating - kindergaten! A single level island gives a lot of flexibility for prep and baking, so I'd vote for that.

But I disagree that having sinks so close together is wasted money. My layout is functionally almost identical to the "north" side of yours, except the DW and trash are swapped. I do all my prep to the south side of the prep sink, which is convenient to the range, and also to the cleanup sink (for dirty bowls), but still allows space for the cleanup function to go on at the same time. (Make sure your aisle clearance is generous so that there's no butt-bumping between people at the prep area and cleanup area.)

The only thing that's a bit of a pain: not having the trash in my prep area. Most of my prep waste is veggie scraps, which goes in the compost in the prep area, but it would be helpful to also have the trash there.

Jilius -- as you probably guessed, my husband most certainly does not cook!! He is very particular about kitchen design though esp from a houseguest perspective. Since we have tons of people coming through our house he wants the kitchen to be as guest-friendly as possible, thus wanting island seating facing the great room. We will have to figure out whether the venting is even possible -- will decide on our contractor this week (still getting several quotes). I'm glad you were able to convince your husband about not getting the island!

I really like your idea about losing the uppers and gaining windows instead. That might be a good compromise! But the fridge placement...that I will still have to work on.

Karenseb -- would you make the walk-in pantry flush with the upper cabinets or the counter? too bulky if it comes out to counter depth?

Foramblues -- do you like the plan with walk-in pantry (plan 2) or wraparound counter (plan 1)? You mentioned that Plan1 has a long stretch of cabinetry but that was my concern with Plan 2. Also, I am glad to hear that your prep sink works for you!

I liked the wraparound counter plan, as moving the opening to the dining room in the other plan extends that long wall. But I'd go with what will function best for you, regardless of appearance. (Either would look pretty nice!)

Sorry for the delay in posting my modified version of your Plan 1, eliasgrace, but I was busy making selections for my kitchen. :)

Here you go:

As suggested above, I moved the DW to the right of the sink, moving it out of one of your many prep areas. I could 3 in this kitchen: 1 to the left of the clean-up sink and 2 on either side of the prep sink on the island. You can decide which will be your primary prep area.

I increased the aisle between range and island (I'm assuming your measurements are counter to counter, not cab to cab) from 40" to 42" and the aisle bettween clean-up sink run and island from 40" to 48". I decreased slightly the aisle between island and fridge wall to make up for the increase of the clean-up sink aisle. If you'd rather have a more generous aisle here, I suggest you shrink the island width.

I eliminated the corner Susan, favoring wider drawers on each side of the corner instead. You could also do a blind corner cabinet along the sink wall. A 46.5" BCC cab (19.5" door) would allow room for a 25.5" wide drawer bank between corner cab and sink cab. To decide which set-up suits your needs best, determine what kind of storage you need in that area.

I shifted the fridge and pantry down to make room for cabs & counter between steam oven & MW and fridge for 2 reasons.

1) 60.5" is above the recommended max of 48" aisle for oven landing zone. Unless you shrink the pocket doorway and entry, you need a landing zone closer to the ovens than the counter next to the range.

2) Adding cabs and counter between ovens and fridge will eliminate door dings that can happen when someone opens the fridge door when the MW or steam oven door is open.

I shifted island seating to the end so that no one is sitting at the business end of the island. I rounded the corner so that you have room for 5 stools when you need 5 stools. 4 will fit better on a regular basis.

I moved the trash cab so that it can be accessed from either the clean-up sink or the prep sink.

I eliminated the wraparound counter at the butler's pantry for a full width butler's pantry. You can add corbels to each end to give it a furniture feel, like this:

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107)

Alternatively, you could add to-the-counter cabs at each end of the butler's pantry, like this:

[

[Mediterranean Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/mediterranean-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2109) by Orinda General Contractors James D Rogers, Builder

The 15.5" deep cabs beneath the island, accessible from the seating overhang, are for seldom used items, such as holiday plates. Alternatively, you can opt for deeper cabs for the 43.5" wide run of cabs and just have a void space between it and the seating overhang.

Can you move the window? If so, I have another idea.

FYI, the island is 1" narrower but the same length as the one on your plan.

One more note: if your fridge is an integrated, built-in model, the fridge shouldn't be deeper than 24" to the door. If it's a built-in model, the fridge will be about 27" deep to the door. The latter will eat up a few inches of the aisle between fridge and island.

Lisa_a -- thank you!!! Your sketch is amazing!! So sorry for the late response. I haven't been checking up on this thread since I assumed that people were done responding. I really love your suggestions. Thank you so much for creating such a detailed diagram.

Never thought of the small counter between the steam oven and the fridge, but I like it! It's functional, and also visually breaks up that long wall.

Like what you did with the butler's too -- do you think we can eliminate the east wall of the smaller butler's area (on the south side). Or would that tiny butler's area look funny exposed without a wall?

Do you think if the trashcan can goes to the left of the sink, it won't be accessible to the prep area on the island?

Also, yes, we do have the option of moving the window. I would love to find out what your idea is! Ideally, I would love a full wall of windows and lose all the uppers on the sink wall. Do you think that I would give up too much storage then? I have a lot of dishes etc to store.

Thanks again! Hope planning for your own kitchen is going well...

You're welcome! I hope my ideas help you fine-tune your kitchen plans. I think it's always good to get lots of ideas to mull over and tweak to suit one's needs.

Here are 2 more for you to consider:

Plan B calls for 2 smaller windows side by side that give you an overall larger window opening than you have planned. Moving them towards the top of the plan makes room to move the fridge to the lower end of the kitchen.

I moved the clean-up sink and DW to the island. Glasses, dishes and silverware (plus dish towels, etc) will be stored in the cabs at each end of the island.

Glasses stored in drawers:

[

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103)

The prep sink and trash move to the perimeter, giving you a nice work path from fridge to prep sink to range on a large continuous stretch of counter.

I kept the pantry where it is in Plan A and expanded the section of counter and cabs between pantry and steam oven/MW. This could be the snack zone. Or a buffet service area. You know your needs better than I so I'm sure you can figure out a use for this area.

Okay, Plan C:

This breaks your kitchen up into 2 distinct zones, the clean-up zone on the DR wall and the cooking zone along the top and exterior walls.

You have huge stretches of counter on each side of your range with windows on each side, giving you light and the openness it sounds like you desire. If you bring the cabs on the upper wall to the counter for an appliance garage and store you stand mixer there, you can turn the counter to the left of the range into your baking center.

I separated the fridge and steam oven/MW column by a 12" pull-out pantry cab to break up the SS and to prevent door dings. It also puts some often used pantry goods closer to the prep zone.

The prep sink and trash moves to the island. You have another great stretch of counter to the left of the prep sink. This set-up will work for multiple cooks. Lots of drawer space to store pots, pans, baking dishes, prep utensils, small appliances, etc.

I moved the pantry, reduced by 12", to the top of the area, keeping all food storage in one area.

Below the pantry is your clean up zone with the clean-up sink centered between two stretches of 48" of counter. Between the base cabs and the upper cabs on this wall, you'll have loads of places to store dishes, glasses, silverware, serving trays, etc. To lighten this wall up, consider adding glass doors to most or all of the uppers on this wall. Like this:

[

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Novato Kitchen & Bath Designers Julie Williams Design

I reduced the aisle between range and island by 3", increased the aisle between clean-up sink and island by 6" and reduced the island by 3".

As I wrote earlier, the island can seat 5 when needed but 4 will fit more comfortably on a regular basis.

The island width can be tweaked to make the aisles on each side of it more generous. 54" is just under the recommended minimum of 60" aisles for back to back seating so I think it will be fine but I suggest you do a mock-up of seating 54" away from a "sink" and "DW" and see if it will work for you.

I'm in the home stretch with my kitchen plans. Just bought my first appliance yesterday. The last things I need to do is pick which of 2 paint colors I like for the hutch and island and pick a hood. Yay!

Wow, Lisa_a!! Thank you! A lot of great ideas here. Is it terrible though that I'm having such a hard time giving up my main clean-up sink by the window (Plan A)? I find that with three kids, I am constantly at the sink doing clean-up. That's where I spend most of my time in the kitchen so I would like to have a view if possible! In your Plan C, I love how the windows flank the range -- what a beautiful focal point. But I spend so much more time at the clean-up sink than at the range. I would love to make the window even larger in Plan A. Ideally a wall of windows is what I want, but afraid of losing much needed storage.

What do you think about extending the island out to be flush with the north side butler's pantry on the DR wall? I would do this for more island storage as well as possibly fitting in another stool. Would that make the island too long for this kitchen?

Congrats on almost completing your kitchen plans! That must be such a huge relief. I can't wait to see your kitchen eventually...please post pics. I'm sure it is planned perfectly!

Extending the island as you're describing is exactly what I did in the last layout I posted. I don't think it seemed too long for this kitchen. Because it lines up with all the stuff on the left wall, I think it looks like it fits. Although I do think maybe it looks a smidge less like it fits when the window wall has counters and kitchen-specific stuff against it that stop short of the island versus when that window wall that stops short of the end of the island just has windows and is more like a walkway that goes by the kitchen rather than being specifically part of the kitchen. Does that make sense? (This is the part where my husband usually looks at me blankly.)

You're welcome! You certainly won't hurt my feelings if you don't choose any of the plans I've suggested. It's your kitchen and only you can know what will work best for you. Our job is to present possibilities for you to consider.

Without seeing the rest of the space, there's no way I can answer whether extending the island will be too long for the space. It's all about scale and not robbing Peter to pay Paul, IMO. How large is the great room? How large is the kitchen table area? If they are equally generous (lucky you!), then the kitchen will be in scale with the rest of the space.

But if you're talking about just extending the island another foot or so (if I'm understanding correctly what you mean by north side of the butler's pantry), that should be okay as long as it's not crowding the aisle between island and kitchen table. Remember, you should aim for a 60" aisle for back to back seating.

You're going to need a very big slab of granite, though, if you make the island much larger than that. I found a slab for my perimeter counters that's 130" long but that's not the norm. If you can't find a slab big enough, then you'll want to see if you can get slabs that can be book-matched so that the seam is nearly invisible.

Check out the amazing book-match job on beaglesdoitbetter's kitchen island counter.

Jilius -- yes, that makes sense! I would love to have a window wall like a walkway. I think though that I need to keep kitchen stuff on that wall for overall added storage in the kitchen, but hopefully I can add more windows.

Lisa_a -- the great room is 16x23 and there is about 11 feet between the end of the window wall and the great room. We actually wouldn't put the kitchen table directly behind the island. There is a pocket to the right of the window all where a round kitchen table would fit perfectly. I would love to extend the island! The more seating the better for my large extended family.

Oh and I love beaglesdoitbetter's kitchen. I'm actually considering going with her cabinetmaker Dutch Wood.

I thought the kitchen table was going right next to the island. Is that 11 feet from the wall window to the great room totally unspoken for, then?

If so, post a plan of that whole space -- kitchen, dining, great room, and empty 11-ft. area. With that kind of space, you could have an enormous kitchen and the wall of windows and an enormous pantry with scads of seating and storage and everything else you could possible think of!

Here is our current layout! At the top right is the kitchen and the rectangle directly below is the great room. There is a step down between the kitchen and great room, as well as a few columns around the great room perimeter.

Jilius, Lisa_a -- any other ideas come to mind after seeing the entire layout? Thanks as always for your input!!!

Oh and Jilius, the kitchen table will be going in that bump out to the right of the kitchen. I originally thought that the table would go directly behind the island but there's no room for that. The bump out is lined with floor to ceiling windows as well as a sliding glass door that leads to the screened porch. Not a fan of round kitchen tables but it seems like it would be the best shape for the bump out.

What are the two rooms at the top left?

Very top left is the garage and the smaller room below is the dining room.

And directly above the kitchen is the mudroom/laundry room. We are thinking of putting laundry on the 2nd floor to dedicate the whole space to the mudroom.

Here's a rough drawing of how I think the island and table should relate to each other:

I drew in a 48" round table with one 12" leaf to extend it to a 48" x 60" oval table, enough room to seat 6. When extended top to bottom, the short ends will have 36" aisle behind the seats. A bit tight so I drew it extending side to side. A 36" aisle at the right end won't be a problem because this isn't going to be an aisle; it only needs to be enough room for someone to pull a chair out and sit down.

I made a stab at how wide the area is from the right wall to where the island will end (lengthened to be even with the top butler's pantry, as you requested) and I think you'll still have 44" between table and island. The seating isn't really back to back, more like back to side, so I think you can get away with 44" between the two.

I did not extend the island farther than the butler's pantry run. The island is already in the continent size range ;-) but the main reason I didn't extend it is to give you plenty of milling area space for when your extended family is over. When everyone gathers at my in-laws (close to 40 of us now), the normally generous 60" aisle in my MIL's galley kitchen feel tiny.

It's also possible that you may be able to extend the table more and put it at an angle in nook area to seat more people at it. If the island were longer, I don't think you'd have that option.

I think you definitely should move the laundry upstairs if you have the means/opportunity. It's so nice having the machines near bedrooms instead of lugging the laundry up and down stairs.

That would mean the mud room could be reconfigured, which opens up a lot of possibilities for the kitchen. Are there or could there be windows on the two exterior walls of that mud room? And would they look out on anything pretty?

Oh, and where are the steps down to the great room?

Lisa_a -- thanks for the sketch the oval table idea! I was thinking round but oval is much better. Question for you - when the oval table is extended side to side what do you think will be the aisle length between the island and kitchen table? 36 or 44? Do you think that the island extended to the top butler's pantry is in scale with the rest of the kitchen and great room? Does it look funny that the island extends way past the right wall? Also if the island is flush with the top butler's pantry, does that make the kitchen seem too "blocky"? Maybe the island should stop a bit short of the butler's?

Jilius -- DH and I were talking today and it seems very unlikely now that we can manage the 2nd floor laundry due to cost and space issues. I'm pretty bummed about that! The mudroom does have one window on the right wall and it's a pretty view too.

The great room is a sunken pit -- so there is a step down across its full length and width.

As I wrote above, I had to guess about clearances because you didn't provide enough measurements for me to know for sure. I assumed that if I were to draw a straight line from the front edge of the sink wall counter run straight across the kitchen table area, it would run into the great room column (assuming that's what those big square things are), which is 92" from the far right nook wall. To that I added 48", which is the aisle width I recommended in my Plan A to get a total of 140" for table and chairs.

If you do a 36" aisle between the right wall and the narrow end of a 42 x 60" oval table with the table turned so it's 60" side to side (not top to bottom), you should have 44" between table and island. You actually might have more than that if the table and island are diagonally across from each other as they appear to be on my drawing (didn't know if the drawing was to scale). However, I didn't have enough information to do the math for that dimension.

I missed the part where you shared that your great room is a step down from the kitchen area. For this reason, I'm recommending a 42" x 60" table instead of a 48" round table with a 12" leaf. That will give you slightly wider aisles at the top and bottom sides of the table, which will give a little bit more safety buffer by the step down, which would be good thing for all ages (my MIL stepped off a curb the wrong way and broke her foot!).

IMO, extending the island edge to be even with the counter edge of the upper butler's pantry will look quite nice. I don't think it's a problem that it extends past the right wall. In fact, I like that it brings the island seating closer to the table and great room areas instead of having them smack in the middle of the working part of the kitchen.

I'm not sure what you mean by "blocky," sorry. Do you mean bulky? Well, it will be a large island but the whole space is large as is the pantry and range so I think it's all in scale.

I hope I made sense and that I helped you through this process.

Oh, you asked ages ago about removing the wall around the lower butler's pantry area. If you do corbels on the upper butler's pantry, I think it would look very nice if you removed the wall around the lower butler's pantry and added corbels to that cab as well.

Eliasgrace, I was snooping through houzz and saw this very pretty hutch

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Ridgewood Kitchen & Bath Designers Ulrich Inc

I thought it might serve as inspiration for your butler's pantry area.

LIsa_a, Jilius, I checked this thread this morning only to find that my post which I thought I posted yesterday was not posted at all! I must have a pressed the wrong button and exited out (!!!).

I just wanted to thank you both for your invaluable help. Your layouts and suggestions were extremely helpful in helping me to visualize possibilities! I can't thank you guys enough.

Lisa_a, I agree with you and think I will lose the wall on the lower butler's pantry. That pic you posted is beautiful and I think it looks quite nice without a wall. I will rethink the oval/round/rectangular table too. I forgot about making extra allowances for the step down. I certainly don't want anyone breaking their foot at my house (your poor MIL...)

Jilius -- we are actually now reconsidering (yet again) putting laundry on the 2nd floor and just biting the bullet re: cost etc. You mentioned the expanded mudroom might open up possibilities for the kitchen? I was thinking of just keeping the space a larger mudroom but do you think the extra mudroom space could make the kitchen any more functional or visually pleasing?

Thank you both again. Very grateful for this forum and this community!