I assume you know that kefir isn't required for any reason? It is simply an optional additive and seldom or never used by many of us who do lots of fermenting because of the cloudiness it causes in the brine and the effect it can have on flavor. Personally I stopped using it several years ago.

That said if you choose to use it, it can be added dry after the vegetables are submerged in the water and lightly mixed in or you can mix the powder with a small amount of water (not milk) and stir it into the submerged vegetables or you can mix the amount called for with all the water required by the instruction/recipe and then pour it over the vegetables. The amount you use all depends on the recipe/instructions used and the size of the fermenting container.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I used the dry form for the first 12 hours or so. No bubbles ( in my airlock) or any signs of fermentation. I read somewhere that it needed to be added to milk and sit for 12-24 hours first. So in a panic, I used the "yogurt" I made with the kefir and milk the night before. Is my ferment ruined? Also how long before I should see signs of fermentation.

Can't say whether you have ruined it or not as that will depend on if you like the taste and appearance of it with the milk. I wouldn't as I don't care for the sour milk flavor or the cloudy brine but you may.

But it would seem some patience is called for with the whole process. Visible fermentation doesn't begin within 12 hours. :) Or even 24 hours. Think in terms of days.

How much of a sign of fermentation you will ever see and how soon all depends on the ambient temps of your fermentation environment more than the kefir. Fermentation is primarily a salt-based activity, based on the ratio of salt to water. That's why the kefir isn't even needed in the first place but is only an optional additive.

As I indicated above, the value of adding kefir in any form is that it "might" speed up the process in some instances a bit but only you can determine if that bit of benefit is worth it when you taste the end result a couple of weeks from now.

Strongly suggest some further research into fermentation and that you consider the book the Joy of Pickling as a source.

Dave

I have done a bit of research about fermentation and from the information I have viewed beverage fermentation and yogurts use kefer and milk.

Vegetables use salt and water to facilitate fermentation. If you have a web site that provided you with your initial recipe, I'd be interested in reading it.

Thanks you for the replies. Many on the hot pepper forum recommend using a starter when making their fermented sauces. Some say kefir some say whey and others hooch. I decided to try the kefir. I was under the impression that it would make it more likely to reach the ph of 4.6 before 48 hours, thus making it safer. My recipe was 5 lbs of frozen peppers and three table spoons of canning salt. I blended up the peppers and put it in a sterilized glass container with a airlock. I stirred in the kefir , weighed down the mash and covered it with a brine.

I use the powdered kefir starter when fermenting peppers. No need to mix it with milk beforehand, just sprinkle a bit of the powder in with your peppers and salt.

I like the result. There is a different taste to it, and if you eat it w/o heat processing, its quite good. Until its brought to high heat and the bacteria & yeast are killed, its 'alive' and will continue to slowly ferment. Very good stuff.

72 hours and no sign of fermentation yet. I might just chalk this up as a loss

"Traditional" fermentation can take quite awhile to show any action. Not sure how milk will impact the process.

Did you ask on the pepper forum where you got the idea of using milk?

This site discusses the various types of fermentation starters and "whey" a dairy bi product is mentioned... http://www.culturesforhealth.com/compare-salt-whey-starter-culture-ferment-vegetables-fruits-condiments

And with the milk added the brine may be too cloudy and too thick for the tiny fermentation bubbles to be seen. Give it 7 days and then taste it to see if it is worth going on.

For future reference making a fermented sauce isn't the same thing as "fermenting peppers". Starts and works differently. Hopefully your salt and water brine was all well mixed into the peppers before sealing the jar rather than just poured on the top. You want the brine dispersed throughout the mixture. And weighting down with sauces in sealed containers isn't necessary.

Dave

When looking how to ferment pepper mash I found people saying they add kefir by way of a dollop of yogurt. When I went and bought the kefir it was in powdered form with directions to add it to milk. I called the lady that sold it too me and she said is has to be added to the milk first because it needs the dairy to live. But it didn't seem right to add dairy to my ferment thus my confusion. Dave I'm not sure if you want to call it fermenting peppers, a mash, or a sauce. It's just peppers that were frozen ground up in a blender. It started to bubble today. How do I know if it's safe?

Here is a pic

Scott, thats what I do - store up peppers in the freezer, then chop them up in a blender, add salt and kefir powder, stir that up then let it ferment for 3-5 weeks. The length of time depends on temperature - cooler weather takes longer. I guess you'd call it a 'mash' at that point. After its fermented, I run it through one of those food mills used to make baby food - this removes the seeds and skin. -- you don't need to do that, just gives a prettier result. You could just strain it or leave it 'chunky'.

Thats when I like to mix it with mango juice, maybe some white wine vinegar, and add other flavors to make the actual sauce.

It should be "safe" after 7 days (the minimum time recommended for full acid development) since you used one of the tested/approved proportions of salt to vegetable weight.

The issue is IF the salted brine is dispersed throughout the pepper slurry. If it isn't then pockets of un-fermented and unsafe vegetables can form.

Normally when making a sauce or mash the salt and water are blended right in with the vegetables in the blender (or whatever you use to chop) rather than just poured on the top as one does when fermenting whole or large pieces of vegetables (the most common practice).

Bottom line: making a mash/sauce isn't the same thing as fermenting whole vegetables such as peppers (which many of us do all the time) so my first response to your post was based on you saying "you were fermenting your peppers".

Fermented mash/sauce has different directions - weigh the vegetable, compute the amount of salt needed for the brine percentage wanted, place the vegetables in the blender with enough water to cover, add the salt to the blender (and whey or kefir if used), puree/blend it all well, pour into a sterile container, and either cover the container with a water seal or weigh the mash down so it is covered with brine, set the container in a warm environment (70-75 degrees) out of the direct sun to ferment. When fermentation reaches the taste-wanted point (7 days minimum), strain and bottle it.

Dave

Thank you all for the replies you have been very helpful. Sorry Dave for not being clearer that it was a mash and not whole peppers. I did mix in three table spoons of salt with the peppers in the blender. I added an addition brine on top the next day because there was not enough liquid drawn out to cover the mash completely. My big mistake was adding the âÂÂyogurtâ based kefir on top of using the powdered form. I hope the dairy doesnâÂÂt go rank, but I guess we will find out. I was under the impression that the ph needs to be below 4.6 before 48 hours, is this true? Secondly, if I boil the finished product for ten minutes would this be safe to water bath can? And would the boiling kill the toxin if somehow they were formed the first 48 hours?

I was under the impression that the ph needs to be below 4.6 before 48 hours, is this true?

If it were true then there would be lots of us dying from fermented foods because no one has any way to know what the pH is at 48 hours. :)

What you need is for lacto bacillus to begin to develop with in the first 48 hours. They eliminate the harmful bacteria if any and as the acidity falls any bacteria are neutralized. And that happens naturally IF you use the correct amount of salt for weight and IF you ferment in a properly warm but not hot atmosphere.

Boiling the finished product is ok (its called hot pack) but it isn't required. You can also do what is called "raw pack" with fermented foods. You just process them longer in the BWB. All fermented foods can be BWB canned and NCHFP gives all the canning information for them.

In your case, simply because of the milk and the fats it contains, if you decide to keep this I'd use hot pack on this.

Dave

Thanks again. One last question, I am not sure that I am going to add a thickener to this batch, but what affect does Xanthan gum have on the safety of canning sauces in general?

Dave52, since you have used the kefir in the past, have you ever used the dairy based kefir and not powdered form to ferment your mash? If so what were your results?

This post was edited by scott123456 on Wed, Dec 24, 14 at 1:46