Personally I would expect if I was paying by the job that the supplier would have factored in the cost of materials in his quote.
But if I was paying by the hour then I'm paying only for his time, not his materials. I would expect to either provide materials or reimburse for materials supplied. You could have given him the few screws used and kept the remainder of the box for future projects.

Thanks, colleenoz. I've hired other workers by the hour, and
they never asked me to buy their paint brushes or buckets.
He took the unopened box of screws home before I realized it.

Equipment a handyman already has (eg paint brushes and buckets) I think is in a different category to materials left behind (screws, hinges, nails etc). If I was a handyman I would set a higher hourly rate if I was supplying all the equipment (tools etc) than if the customer had to provide those. But I would charge for any extras such as nails, paint, wallpaper, wood or whatever.

That said, if I was your handyman, I would not have helped myself to the whole box of screws, I would have just asked you to buy a box of x size screws, used what I needed and left the rest behind.

This post was edited by colleenoz on Tue, Jan 6, 15 at 8:18

The term is ''time and materials." Yes, you pay for every nut and bolt. Not the best approach, honestly. Usually costs more than hiring by the job total. Usually lesser skills involved and licensing and insurance lacking. Be careful on that front. When you hire an actual contractor, it's for a specific lump sum, some materials included, or an allowance for them. And you need to view licences and insurance for any job if you value your home.

I had a handyman business for several years. How I charged depended on the job, customer's financial situation, and the customer's wishes.

Sometimes, I charged time plus materials. That occurred the most often, since the materials necessary depended on the specific job. If I needed screws, I(or the customer) purchased the screws and the excess screws were left with the customer. Sometimes a customer donated their excess materials because they knew I did certain jobs for free for retired folks on a small pension/SS.

Sometimes, I had the customer buy all the materials, either what they thought was needed or from a list I made for them.

If I bid a job by the job, I included all parts and materials in the bid. That meant I supplied everything and the cost of replacement was included in the bid/job cost.

There were several community groups that asked me to do work for a member of their community, the group paid for materials, I did the work at a very reduced rate or for no charge. I called those jobs Work for a Story and a Hug.

I could do those kinds of things because I was retired and needed only for the business to break even,

If I broke something because of my actions, I replaced/fixed it at my cost. If I thought something was going to break before removing/handling, the customer and I discussed the possibilities and arrived at a presolution.

I was not licensed(was not required/available in my area), but I was insured for a half million dollars. The only license available locally was for construction, and that required a great deal of knowledge not necessary for the type of work I did, plus the cost of the testing for the various cities in my metropolitan area(about 15) would have been in the thousands of dollars.

My work had to pass the same codes inspections as any other worker and was done legally in every instance. In some cases, I knew more about applicable codes than the inspector(I could research the necessary procedures and talk to several very qualified people before I took on a job).

I never had any problem with people watching me work and was happy to explain what/how/why I was doing whatever it was I was doing.

My work was appreciated, I did no advertising, and had more work than I had time to do. There are other workers/companies who work much like I did, but those folks may also be difficult to find. Talk to their prior customers(that was a requirement I had, customers had to agree to talk to a prospective customer to show my work---but, only if I contacted them first and gave them the prospective customers contact info---to help preserve their privacy.)

You should only be supplying what is needed for your job, not replenishing his own supplies. I wonder why he would need new tarps, or not have any screws on hand if he asks his customers to buy him a whole box.

He should have discussed materials up front. He should not have walked with leftover materials. He should not be charging to fix something he broke. Hopefully he has insurance if the the repairs can't look good.

Does he take his sweet time too?

It does not sound like he has a good set of ethics or sensibility in place. I would not continue to hire him for work. Perhaps a bit clumsy too.

The shutter patching should have been off the clock - you break it you fix it! And he has to fix them to your satisfaction, same with the door.

As for the "consumables" - it depends on your contract with him. I would expect a painter to have his own painting tools and bring his own tape and dropclothes. A handyman doing minor repairs should have the spackle, screws, washers and other bitty stuff with him, and you pay for the visible hardware, faucets and such.

Auto shops add on a small "consumables" percentage to every repair to cover that sort of thing, and just buy another box of whatever when they need to. If he's not doing it, he's not thinking ahead.

Confession time.

Today I shimmed up another contractor's top installation. When I trimmed the shim, I nicked the cabinet door very slightly. I pulled open the vanity drawer and found the lady's eyeliner. I dabbed some on the nick and it disappeared. I put the eyeliner right back where I found it.

They inspected and I collected.

jacquelynn:

It depends.

I just did a commercial time and material job. I needed two Woods Power Grips, didn't have any, and didn't pursue renting.

My customer was a general contractor specializing in retail construction and his customer was the new local mall. HIs sub had bailed and with the mall screaming at him and a deadline, this GC was in no position to negotiate. I billed him hourly at a 20% premium because I had to work after mall hours and all materials and even the $200.00 Power Grips. When the mall accepted my work two nights before I thought I'd be done, he was delighted and paid my bill in full without complaint. He even asked if I'd work out of state.

"Today I shimmed up another contractor's top installation. When I trimmed the shim, I nicked the cabinet door very slightly. I pulled open the vanity drawer and found the lady's eyeliner. I dabbed some on the nick and it disappeared. I put the eyeliner right back where I found it. They inspected and I collected. "

I don't know what your point is, trebruchet. I wouldn't have a problem with a touchup, but if I ever discovered a contractor was opening any of my drawers, etc, or rooting through my bathroom, I would be livid - to say the least.

When you pay by the hour, you should pay for expenses incurred doing the job. That said, I think there should be room for a little give and take. For example, I don't think it's reasonable for you to argue about a box of screws. On the other hand, it sure as heck isn't reasonable for you to buy paint brushes and tarps, much less to pay to fix mistakes!

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. I read them
all carefully.

I was okay with the screws because I didn't want to seem petty.
And I've willingly supplied three paint buckets and things like caulk and spackle.

He only works a few hours a day (my preference), and I've been
writing him a check at the end of each day. Is that standard?

So even if I deduct all of one day's pay, it won't cover the damage
he caused. Can I actually expect him to get the shutter color
computer matched and buy the brand of paint I prefer, and
repaint the whole frame? That's what another contractor
told me it would take to look right.

He's cancelled at the last minute a few times, and the last time I
asked if he could take off a little money to compensate for my
great inconvenience. Of course he refused, and told me I'm getting
a good deal. I'm getting the deal he offered me -- I accepted his
rate without question.

I'm sure if I refuse to buy the items he requested, he'll quit.
And then he certainly won't make up for the damage!

Thank you all again. A rhetorical question: has anyone ever
had a job done perfectly by a contractor?!!!

"For example, I don't think it's reasonable for you to argue about a box of screws."

In this case, it's just one more thing; part of a bigger problem. I don't think it's reasonable to charge for a few screws, moreless make the customer go out to buy a whole box and then keep the whole box. Talk about cheap and petty.

The short days are also problematic with all the start-ups and shut downs, time to get momentum going. Terribly inefficient and paying for a lot of waste.

I guess you'll have to let him fix things his way and see if it's acceptable.

I'm curious how much he is charging you for his time.

snookums2,

Before I tell you what he's charging, I'd like to mention that I
recently hired a licensed electrical contractor company to install some wiring. I paid top price, and they did the job very wrong. They even left a live wire in a wall they knew would be plastered over. Ultimately they admitted their mistakes, and redid the work correctly. So I'm not convinced you get what you pay for...

Don't laugh...this handyman charges $18/hour.

"Don't laugh...this handyman charges $18/hour."

And he is working for less than minimum wage at that rate by the time you subtract self-employment taxes,etc. Fuel? Insurance?

Let's hope his handyman skills are better than his business acumen. He's going broke.

"I wouldn't have a problem with a touchup, but if I ever discovered a contractor was opening any of my drawers, etc, or rooting through my bathroom, I would be livid - to say the least."

snookums2:

I don't make a habit of rifling through my customer's drawers, but I do have a habit of fixing mistakes immediately, especially before a customer spots it. If I ran a school for contractors this would be the 2nd most important thing I would teach them.

That's a zero competence level, and no license or insurance price. He doesn't make anything at all at that price to even be able to afford tools or sundries. He might make gas and lunch money if he gets 8 hours in a row. He's actually losing money on the short hour sessions. Expecting him to pay for anything at all out of his pocket, including damages or wholesale destruction of your home just isn't realistic.

This is typical for Craigslist handymen. I had one that wanted to use my tools, as he didn't have any (he didn't get the job). That said, some of the best workers I've found on CL, they give me a list of what they need, I head down to the big box store, and they leave me what they didn't use.

A couple of comments:

I prefer paying by the job. Not only is the cost of the materials included, I don't have to fret about how long they are taking.

The last job I hired for was a siding job, and I picked a company with a good rep, and not one of the lower bids.
Every time I look at my house I'm pleased and amazed with the quality of their work. To me, it's better to spend time up front picking a good company, and then staying with them for future needs.

Handyman rates start at around $50 an hour here. And that's an "introductory special" with a coupon.

"I don't make a habit of rifling through my customer's drawers, but I do have a habit of fixing mistakes immediately, especially before a customer spots it. If I ran a school for contractors this would be the 2nd most important thing I would teach them."

What would be the first?

#1 Qualify your customer properly.

I was a freelance carpenter for years. At the last (1999) my rate was $40/hour. After insurance, tools, taxes, etc, I made about 40K a year. That's excellent, by the way, for a carpenter in my area, but, obviously, I wasn't getting rich.

My van was stocked with just about everything I might need for all kinds of work and repairs. If a job called for a few nails and I had them, no charge. If I had to buy nails, I charged for them, kept any left over and used them on the next job. I didn't document every last washer or squirt of glue. I think that's reasonable.

If a client was leery of paying by the hour, I'd give them a set price, but it cost them more. Once I established a working relationship and trust with a client, I'd work by the hour. If a client continued to insist on a set price for subsequent jobs, I'd drop them. I'm more interested in doing good work than hassling with suspicious people.

There are some bad contractors out there, but there are just as many bad clients. You never seem to hear about them, though. I've been stiffed for as much as ten thousand dollars. There's nothing you can do. Sue them? Good luck.

It's important for client and contractor to communicate. Both must understand, exactly, what the other wants and will do, before the work begins. It's crucial, for both client and contractor to use their "people sense." If you have a bad feeling, if anything seems "off," walk away.

We reimburse our handyman for the supplies he purchases specifically for use in our home (wood for shelves, brackets to hang pictures, paint, etc.). We don't pay for his "tools of the trade" - paint brushes, screwdrivers, hammers, that kind of thing that he uses over and over.

By the way, I pay my handyman $50 an hour, but he does NOT "take his sweet time" - he's actually very efficient, and he doesn't charge us for the time to go to Home Depot, etc.

#3: Carry touch-up supplies in your tool box?

"What would be the first?"

jellytoast:

Of course lwo nailed it: "#1 Qualify your customer properly."

Thanks again, everybody!

I belong to an online neighborhood group, and when I requested
contractor recommendations, a neighbor gave me this guy's name.
She said he's done work for her home and business, and he's great.

mag77, why did a set price cost your clients more? I received an estimate from someone for $3500 for labor only, but when he itemized it based on his day rate -- it added up to only $2500.
Is it standard to overcharge that way with a set price?

I appreciate all your comments.

jacquelynn:

The difference between hourly and bid work is risk. When you hire me hourly, the worse the damage and the longer it takes doesn't cost me any money. I'm not going to make a lot, but I'm losing nothing.

When I bid a job, I've got to take a good guess at how long it's going to take. If there is something unforeseen or I've underestimated how fussy you are, I could take a pounding if I haven't bid high enough.

I bid every now and then and it pays twice as much, but I'm pretty good at it. The more risk I take, the higher the price.

Jacquelynn,

Trebruchet's response is mine as well. When bidding, we must pad the bill in order to protect ourselves against the unforeseen.

Why not just get paid for the work done. That's the fairest method for all involved.

Job bids are not necessarily static. Contractors do charge for unforseens and I am always aware and expect those will cost more. I only remember once, however, when the guy said it came out less than the *estimate*. We use the term estimate around here, but there really aren't reductions to them at the end of the job. Seems a one-sided term.

"Why not just get paid for the work done. That's the fairest method for all involved"

Exactly!

"Job bids are not necessarily static"

Mine are. When I give my word, that's it.

Meaning, paying time and materials for the work done is the fairest exchange for all.

I agree with you, snookums2. Thanks to everyone for such an
informative discussion!

The problem(for the consumer) with time and materials is that makes padding/cheating much easier for the worker. How are most consumers going to know if repairing a wall takes 3 hours and $40 worth of materials or 8 hours and $120 in materials?

Example. There are tables called flat rate manuals for many professions. Those tables give a definite time for each procedure.

Example: Replacing a clutch plate on a manual transmission vehicle is given as 3.6 hours. Replacement of the flywheel is listed at 3.9 hours. The customer is quoted those rates for the clutch plate and the flywheel at $80 an hour labor. That is $286 and $312 respectively for a total of $598. Sounds pretty good, huh?

HUGE ripoff. The rate for the clutch is based on an average, many shops have equipment and the experience to do the clutch replacement in 2.5 hours.

The bigger gouge is the second charge. Those times are based on doing each job from the start. Once the clutch is removed, there is only the .3 hours necessary to replace the flywheel. Effectively, by using time and material, the customer just paid twice the labor necessary.

Then there is the unexpected broken part cost that cannot necessarily be accounted for in a bid. Say a step in the clutch process is disconnection/removal of an exhaust part. The mounting studs break, necessitating another $110 in labor to remove the broken studs. Or a hole is found in an exhaust part. Or a bad seal in the transmission.

Same thing can happen in building/remodeling.

Point is, a consumer has to do their homework and learn some basics about the jobs they need done and what questions to ask and what to look for during the job to make sure they are getting what they are paying to get done.

Once a worker/company is found to be trustworthy, those things become less important. As an automotive mechanic, I had repeat customers bring their vehicle to me and say, "Brakes squeak. Fix them." Because they knew I would find the problem and tell them the cost before the repair.

As a remodeler later, I did much the same thing and had many repeat customers because I was trustworthy.

However, sometimes, unforeseen problems occur(actually that is the rule rather than the exception in remodeling) since buildings are not built like vehicles and there can be literally almost anything behind a wall.

And getting a free estimate usually is close to useless in many cases.

" I only remember once, however, when the guy said it came out less than the *estimate*. We use the term estimate around here, but there really aren't reductions to them at the end of the job. Seems a one-sided term."

Yeah, one-sided because customers always feel sorry for the poor contractor when things go bad and offer to pay more.

I would much rather get a set price for a job rather than pay time and materials. Is there any reason a handyman can't charge by the job instead of by the hour? If a contractor hasn't been working long enough to figure out a reasonable estimation of how long it will take him to do a job and make a decent profit, then maybe he doesn't have the experience I'd want him to have. The work and price included in the proposal should be set in stone, and if unforseen things are discovered along the way, I can deal with them if and when they are found. I don't want to be charged for things that "might" be behind walls, but are just as likely to NOT be there.

"I would much rather get a set price for a job"

OK, fine.

"I don't want to be charged for things that "might" be behind walls, but are just as likely to NOT be there"

You can't have it both ways.

I didn't say I wanted it both ways ...

"The work and price included in the proposal should be set in stone, and if unforseen things are discovered along the way, I can deal with them if and when they are found."

Which means, if unforseen things are discovered along the way that need to be fixed, they can then be priced out and added at that time.

What you wrote is possible if the original deal(contract/verbal agreement) so specifies and is honored by both parties.

Often that does not happen because the concept was never discussed, either or both sides reneged, or very little unforeseen complications arise.

I always made it clear I could not be sure of what was behind a wall, under a floor, or above a ceiling. More than once, I removed part of a floor to find the foundation was unsafe. That became a job beyond my capabilities at that point, so I either came back after the problem was fixed or lost the job. Either way, it screwed up my schedule and cost me money.

There simply is no way to reliably bid a remodeling job and have the job go as planned. And, when the inevitable happens, it is usually the remodeler who looses, unless they overcharge the owner.

That is why I never bid materials. Prices could---and did---change daily.

"Which means, if unforseen things are discovered along the way that need to be fixed, they can then be priced out and added at that time"

I see your point, but I hope you realize this is the kind of gray area I try my best to avoid, and why I prefer to work on a time/material basis. You see, most people are not as fair-minded as you are. If you give them a set price, then run into unforeseen problems, that's just tough. Believe me, after a time of two of working for nothing, you get a whole new outlook on humanity.

"Believe me, after a time of two of working for nothing, you get a whole new outlook on humanity."

I do understand this, but I don't like paying for "nothing" either. If you bid my job and include unforseen problems that never materialize, are you going to give me a refund? Probably not, so I'd rather cross that bridge when I get to it. Why not include a simple clause stating that only what is in the proposal is included in the price, and any additional work required and agreed upon will require addtional charges?

"If you bid my job and include unforseen problems that never materialize, are you going to give me a refund?"

No. I would make it clear to begin with that a set price will very likely cost you more than if you let me work by the hour, but once you make that choice, that's it.

"Why not include a simple clause stating that only what is in the proposal is included in the price, and any additional work required and agreed upon will require additional charges?"

I've never used a contract. After being ripped off a few times, I decided to limit my risk and found a niche doing small jobs; trim work for decorators, custom door installs for millwork companies, an occasional kitchen or bath remodel. In any event, I've seen a lot of good tradespeople AND clients get hammered in spite of contracts.

"Why not include a simple clause stating that only what is in the proposal is included in the price, and any additional work required and agreed upon will require additional charges?"

This goes back to the first thing I would teach young contractors, qualifying your prospects. If you've properly selected clients, this will be possible because you've made sure they're not greedy unreasonable nut-cases.

"greedy unreasonable nut-cases"

You forgot the worst ones. They turn up when you're hanging off a third floor dormer patching 80 year old windows, because they only have fifty dollars to spend, and then they yell up and say, "I just got off the phone with my uncle, he was a carpenter a couple of years before he became a manicurist, and he says you're doing that wrong and you're too expensive."

LOL, mag77!

Well, you must not be qualifying your clients very well then, that you felt the need to root through their bathroom looking for makeup colors to hide a supposedly 'slight nick' you made in their cabinet. And that you seem to run into so many fussy, greedy, whackos. I've read a lot of your posts and it seems to me you are the fussy one, who is also fixated on your every nickle and minute of time.

My father-in-law told my wife that I'm not worth what I charge. He did twenty years as a $20.00 an hour handyman supplementing his pension. My rates are more than four times his.

I don't argue with him; I let the marketplace and my online reviews speak for me.