I see no reason not to show them the picture and say "This is what I'd like to do"....

This is a second kitchen I liked, similar layout, but table in the middle. While the first inspiration photo kitchen is about a foot narrower than mine, the one linked below is about a foot wider

Even with a smaller table than the one in the link, I think it would be cutting the space too narrow - especially given the fact that I spend so much time going in and out to the garden.

Here is a link that might be useful: [Another One[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/small-philadelphia-row-house-renovation-traditional-kitchen-philadelphia-phvw-vp~4371737)

It's very much "don't volunteer" at my city's Dept of Buildings. I'd bring a copy of the plans in my bag but only produce it if the person you're talking to can't wrap his/her mind around your question. Here, if you were to whip out your plan unsolicited, some functionary would make a copy and start nitpicking about outlet placement and fire-resistant doors, instead of focusing on the question.

Well, sooner or later you must show the plans. What I discovered in the course of our remodel--still underway, still a learning experience--telling someone knowledgeable what you want, is only the first step.

Next step is the question you ask them....What impediments might keep me from getting it done this way? Those things could be against code, added expense makes it unrealistic, or perhaps you can get more by doing it a different way. That's what you pay those guys the big bucks to tell you. Squeeze them for the info, and it will make your project that much better with fewer problems during the construction process.

Our general contractor is on his third project for us. We can talk. He is easy going and will take the time to explain the issues, usually in 25 words or less, which is of great amusement to my DH, who knows it takes me at least a paragraph and much handwaving to say HELLO. hehehe

And I think of the inspectors who come around as trying to help the homeowner. It isn't really an adversarial relationship. But you don't want to discover an anomaly at the time the work is done and inspector is shaking his head. No no. KNOW that it will be according to code at least before the plan is finalized.

Sure, bring it. Bring exterior photos of both properties.

Also recognize that you're not going to leave with a yes. You might possibly leave with a flat-out no, though that's probably unlikely. What you should aim for is an understanding of what your chances are, and what the process will be. You may be told what you need to submit and to whom. Whose approval is required. What the steps are. How often these things get approved. You may need to visit more than one office. You might start with inspectional services and end up at the zoning board.

This isn't the end of the process. It's just the start.

Thanks, sjhockeyfan - hopefully, that will be a good place to start. I guess I'm worried that they'll say "we can't tell you what you need until you bring us plans!" And then I'll need to pay the KD another $1,000 (or more) for plans that I might not get a permit for...

Zeebee & moccassinlandin - there are extenuating permit situations here that may cause a difficulty. I (may) want to build a door/window that encroaches onto a separate property. A property I own, but still a different property.

If your KD is any kind of a designer at all, they'll have some idea of what good construction is all about. If not, then you need to cut back on time/money spent there. Maybe they do this for a hobby? and not a real pro. If your project involves more than shuffling cabs and appliances around in an existing space, think about a construction pro instead.

Marcolo - thank you. I appreciate your insight & expertise.

Moccasin - the KD is an architect. I hired her before I knew that GWebbers don't think much of architects as KD's...

What about calling a reputable window/door company who works in your neighbourhood, and asking, "Can I put a window and door in here?". The window guy should be able to give you the scoop about
a. whether the City allows you to add these things
b. whether it is structurally possible
c. whether you need a permit

And all this advice should be free. Plus you could get a quote for installation and re-laying your brick facade (if you have brick).

Maybe I'm missing something, though, and maybe you do need to go to the City. Dunno.

I like the plan with the double doors. I still think you need a real oven and 4-burner cooktop though :-)

Now way would I do the second layout with the table in the middle. That looks like it would be a constant source of congestion and other problems.

Go in with a humble attitude. Tell them you are the homeowner. You need to know that you can do, not what you can't do. Ask them to help you with your dream.

Polite behavior, the willingness to learn something and asking their opinion will go a long way. Simply ask how do I make this happen? Please help me. It has been my experience that people love to share their opinion when asked.

I have to make the same trip down to city hall myself. I understand you nervousness, but attitude is everything.

Remember, honey not vinegar.

Hydragea - I know that I absolutely do need a permit - and not only that, but a variance if I'm given one. I already had a structural engineer OK it on that end.

HerrDoctor - you may be right. Bear in mind, though, that firstly, I live alone, so it would just me alone causing congestion. I'd also have a smaller table, with probably two chairs - perhaps either end rather than on the cabinet sides.

HomeChef - Absolutely, that's what I'm planning to do!

I have been able to get decent replies for some stuff from my permitting office by email. Even in person they're actually pretty nice--not at all like the DMV--yet they have the reputation for being the stickiest sticklers in a highly regulated area. (They'll tell you "no" with sympathy?)

See if you can make an appointment. If not, well, maybe they'll have free wifi and you can get some good gaming in. :)

"I got the wise advice here that I should go there BEFORE finalizing a layout/design so that I can know what I need to do to get the permits needed - if I can even get them."

carrieb:

I'm not so sure about that advice. First, find out if you're in a historic district. They can be quite strict as to fenestration alterations. If you're not, a building official only cares about mechanics, not esthetics.

I would go in with completed drawings and a confident attitude. It's kind of like the assumption close in sales in that you assume the customer is going to buy so you hand them the pen to sign the deal. You assume your plans will be approved, because you're confident in your KD/Architect's work.

This post was edited by Trebruchet on Tue, Dec 16, 14 at 13:03

so it would just me alone causing congestion.

The TABLE would be causing the congestion - you'd have to walk around it to go from here to there every time. I agree with HDP in this case. (Of course, as I recall, you don't cook, so maybe in your case, it's not a problem!)

Well, that was interesting. I was in the Municipal Services building this afternoon for another reason & decided to stop over to permits & see if I could get any information.

Here's what I was told: You (actually, usually your contractor) have to submit drawings & apply for a permit. Your permit will be denied, at which point you (or your contractor) will be given instructions on how to apply for a variance. You can't apply for a variance until you've been denied a permit.

sjhockeyfan (et al) here's what I'm thinking for the table. My current table is 25' x 40'. Say I go with the same or similarly sized table.

If I go for the sliding doors in the first image, with the "main" egress on the right, and I keep the two chairs either on each short end (front to back) or one chair facing the door and another facing the sink/window, I think I'd have a decent walk through between the counters & the table.

Let's see if I can draw it to scale.

Carrieb, that sounds like what I would have expected the answer to be. IME, the best source for how likely you would be to get a variance is a contractor who works with the city a lot. They usually know what gets approved and what doesn't. The city is reluctant to say because there is no upside for them to guess what the outcome of the variance process will be.

Around here, I would be very surprised to get a variance for what you want. I think the response would be, you can join your parcels so there's no need for a variance. But I could be wrong and your location could be different.

I'd talk to the zoning board. The city isn't ever going to tell you yes or probably. But if the answer is, not a snowball's chance--yeah, you might get a response.

Personally I would never approve such a variance. It's absurd.

I agree with crl - city may have you join the 2 properties before giving a variance. A variance will remain on the books, long beyond your ownership.

Crl - I'm not opposed to joining the parcels, if that's possible.

Marcolo - which part(s) of it are absurd?

Mags - Yes, I'm not opposed to joining the properties.

It would be absurd to grant a variance without joining the parcels.

Ah, thank you.

Hmmm, it would indeed be strange for the city to allow that variance to take place. For one thing, you could not sell the house or property without devaluing it.

Then again, is there a way to slice off a portion of the 2nd lot and deed it to the first property? When I bought a strip of land behind our house from the neighbor lady who owned it, It was approved by the city and a new "subdivision" was created. It became part of the first parcel, dimensions added in to my original lot and the usual property line setbacks apply as for one house lot. If you have nothing built on that space you wish to use via a variance, why don't you think about slicing off that piece? Unless there is a minimum lot size involved, in which case you need to get a survey of property lines and such anyway....or perhaps you have an existing survey that is current enough to use.

why don't you think about slicing off that piece

Its called a "lot line adjustment". I'm not sure it would work here if both lots are just the right size for a row house (city likely won't allow a lot line adjustment if it makes Lot 2 too small to build on, or a weird configuration).

Yes, I don't disagree that they may require me to combine the parcels. At the same time, it would seem that if it is just a window facing out to the adjoining property - not a bay window & not a door - that the window could be sealed up if the properties are sold separately in the future. I don't in any way think that my stated logic means that the city would agree with me or allow it, though.

Moccasinlanding - I'll bet that the city would never let me slice anything apart - the lots are narrow rowhome lots. So, slicing off a foot or two would basically render the larger lot useless in terms of building a house on it.

sjhockeyfan - we posted at the same time! Yup. City row home lots...

I don't think the city has any way to grant a conditional variance though. So once they approve the window--if they hypothetically do--it's permanent and they have no authority to require you or any future owners to seal it up. At least that's what I would expect.

I don't know about joining the two parcels. Some cities prefer lower density, others higher density. I think if you can join the two parcels into in one there would be no need for a variance? You could call the city to ask the procedure for joining parcels. Or consult an attorney. Joining the parcels would make it difficult or maybe impossible to ever re-split them, which might be a problem down the road. It would keep you from being able to sell that adjacent lot even if you find yourself in need of the cash. I don't know what it would do to your property taxes. I also don't know how it would effect your mortgage, assuming you have one. Before deciding to join the parcels, I think I'd talk to an attorney to make sure I understood all the ramifications.

Crl_ Yeah, I get that about the conditional variance. Just saying what I would do (wouldn't want a window that had nothing but brings on the other side of it, eh?) not what the city should issue variances based on...

I can't imagine I'd need a variance if the two parcels were combined into one. Right, joining the parcels would mean no one could ever sell just one of them. I know that I never would - having that garden space was the #1 reason I bought the house. However, if I ever do decide to sell, it might be tougher to sell it as one (or maybe easier, who knows?) I also don't know how it would affect my taxes & my mortgage. And, yes, talking to a property lawyer in my city is probably not a bad idea.

So, here's one more thing, just to throw a monkey wrench (or not?) into the whole thing. Assuming, in terms of complicated permits, we're talking about one window over the sink... well, worse comes to worse and it doesn't play out the way I'd like it to: either financially or legally or pain-in-the-butt-wise, I STILL like this layout better than I like any of the others.

Yes, I would like a window over the sink - it would look out on the prettiest part of the garden, the window would bring nice afternoon light into the kitchen, and it also looks out on the outdoor seating, so if I was having a party, I could talk to my guests from standing at the sink.

But, if there is no window there, well, there's that big sliding door on the back wall that would give me a lot in terms of bringing the outdoors in. I could live with that.

From your last post, yes, if you could go without the side window now, you would then prolly only need the standard remodel permits (pulled by contractor). You can always jump thru the hoops with the city later on about adding a side window.

All large city/row house knowledgable people roll your eyes - dumb question alert...

Why would it be a huge issue to get a variance? I understand the basics of having a shared wall, and why you wouldn't want to mess with a solid one, but the wall in question already has a large BAY window! Isn't that "vacant" lot impacted at the moment by, not only a window, but a window that would protrude into another's space? Thanks for answers, I am really curious about this and apologize for a maybe? silly question.

This post was edited by cluelessincolorado on Wed, Dec 17, 14 at 11:28

I was also thinking along the lines of a light tube, but then, like Clueless, I too am clueless about big city row houses. Probably several stories high? hmmm?

So, CarrieB, if you cannot change anything else, you must adjust your attitude so you can be happy. That is something only YOU control. No permit required. :) Seems like you have discovered that trick.